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Mac OS X Intel Leaked?
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Official thread for OSX86
Looks like someone finally decided to start an official forum for the OSX86 stuff. The guy wants just whatever your thoughts are as far as if you think its possible and if its gonna be released. Hes also lookin to find the actual install so he can shar with all. its over here:
http://forums.krazynonsense.com/showthread.php?t=30
and get this, you dont actually have to sign up to post stuff. hes being nice enough to set up a limited account so you can post right away if you have anything to say.
hes also compiling a buncha stuff from here and anywhere else he can find info right there so you wont need to go anywhere else. how nice, huh?
Looks like someone finally decided to start an official forum for the OSX86 stuff. The guy wants just whatever your thoughts are as far as if you think its possible and if its gonna be released. Hes also lookin to find the actual install so he can shar with all. its over here:
http://forums.krazynonsense.com/showthread.php?t=30
and get this, you dont actually have to sign up to post stuff. hes being nice enough to set up a limited account so you can post right away if you have anything to say.
hes also compiling a buncha stuff from here and anywhere else he can find info right there so you wont need to go anywhere else. how nice, huh?
2009? Surely you kid. Maybe not $500 bucks but 900 bucks should do the trick -
The G5 - top of the line.
$2,999.00
Estimated Ship: Same business day
Free Shipping
Dual 2.7GHz PowerPC G5
1.35GHz frontside
bus/processor
512K L2 cache/processor
512MB DDR400 SDRAM
Expandable to 8GB SDRAM
250GB Serial ATA
16x SuperDrive (double-layer)
Three PCI-X Slots
ATI Radeon 9650
256MB DDR video memory
Now my made to order PC from Newegg:
Antec PERFORMANCE TX640B Black Steel ATX Mini Tower Computer Case 400W Power Supply - Retail
Model #: TX640B
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GIGABYTE GA-8I945P-PRO Socket T (LGA 775) Intel 945P ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
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$149.00
Update ABIT RX700PRO-256PCIE Radeon X700PRO 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail
Model #: RX700PRO-256PCIE
$154.50
intel Pentium D 820 Smithfield 800MHz FSB LGA 775 Dual Core, EM64T Processor Model BX80551PG2800FN - Retail
Model #: BX80551PG2800FN
$262.99
CORSAIR VALUESELECT 1GB (2 x 512MB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) Unbuffered System Memory Model VS1GBKIT667D2 - Retail
Model #: VS1GBKIT667D2
$138.00
Western Digital Caviar SE WD800JD 80GB 7200 RPM Serial ATA150 Hard Drive - OEM
Model #: WD800JD
$55.00
Update NEC Black IDE DVD Burner Model ND-3520A BK - OEM
Model #: ND-3520A BK
$45.99
Total 904 bucks w/shipping.
Actually while this PC system has a smaller harddrive it's probably faster. It has twice as much ram, a more modern video card. The processor while technically slower can be overclocked some on that gigabyte board. Is that "superdrive" a burner? I don't think so.
It would be fairly reliable as well with the nice Antec powersupply that comes with case and the decent Gigabyte motherboard.
Pete
Maybe Avid Adrenaline would run as nicely on the sort-of-budget high-end system you spec'd out, compared to a dual 2.7GHz Power Mac G5. However, once you figure in the price of the Avid software and requisite hardware, your PC system ends up costing way more than a high-end Final Cut Pro system.GuyClinch said:
That's just one example. You didn't even include an OS in your cost breakdown, which makes the comparison especially ridiculous. Mac OS X does not come free with every CPU; its cost is built into each computer's price.
GuyClinch said:
That Pentium D will be a real slacker compared to a dual G5. The D is a severely limited processor that was obviously thrown together as quickly and cheaply as possible to beat AMD's far superior chips to market. The thing is basically two processors tossed onto the same die, and it takes a performance hit because of it. A lot of benchmarks have shown it to be little better than a single core for many tasks.
The analogy would be better served with either a dual processor regular Pentium setup, waiting for the real dual-core Pentiums due out later this year, or using one of AMD's new chips... that's about the only way you'd get the raw processing power of the G5s.
Either way it's gonna run you more than $900, but will certainly be cheaper than a new dual G5 machine.
GuyClinch said:
What do you mean "is it a burner"? Of course it's a burner...what the hell do you think it is?
I agree. I hope FCP for x86 is as good as or better than the current PPC version. Given the time frame of the product line conversion, that might have to wait until FCP 6. It would be nice if Apple issued, through Software Update, an x86 FCP 5 patch.Fukui said:
He means to demonstrate the depth and breadth of his knowledge, which pretty much amounts to "PCs are cheaper" and "Superdrives aren't burners."Flux Harmonic said:
if you tell me that a mac is more expensive to use the "it looks like you're writing a letter" tool, i agree. but you shouldn't buy a 2.7 ghz g5 for this. the g5 is really high-end stuff.. word users should go buy their minimac or something in that class.. but i can asure you, that a pc brings not that sort of power which i need to be productive. pc's are good for games. that's it. and yeah you can install linux and get dr17 or fluxbox to be 3l33tix .. but this is not what i want to do while i'm working.
apple is going to intel ? well, they will do it right. i'm sure. i'm looking forward to it.
apple is going to intel ? well, they will do it right. i'm sure. i'm looking forward to it.
What is this netburst thing? Is it just the P4?
My understanding is that the P4 is what some call RISC under the hood, but emulates x86 code very well. What if Apple can code to the VLIW core?
My understanding is that the P4 is what some call RISC under the hood, but emulates x86 code very well. What if Apple can code to the VLIW core?
Well, I'm not disputing what you say but... a lot of developers have statedHector said:
the test sytem was faster than thier fastest system and yet much quieter,
and this is on a netburst (lame marketing term)... so I don't know.
I guess the better integer performance makes a difference....
jayscheuerle
macrumors 68020
GuyClinch said:
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Guess your time is billed at $0/hr! If so, I have a house that needs dusting and some windows that need washing...
Yes the Pentium D takes a performance hit compared to the AMD64 X2. We are in total agreement here.
And yes the Pentium D is not the "ideal" dual processor. It's not really a dual core design at all as you rightly point out. It's what the call an MCM or a multi-chip module. And functions in your computer much like dual processor computer would. And since that's what we are comparing here a G5 and a sample p4 box it's a great comparison.
However I would beg to differ on the idea that it's a real slacker compared to a G5. I say prove it. Yes you can prove that the Pentium D is a dog compared to the AMD64. But it's not competing against that chip here.
In the REAL WORLD you find that the P4 with it's excellent integer mark just buzzes through alot of code. Read what the developers are saying and you will see.
There is plenty of evidence that the P4 2.8 will hit a SpecInt of 1000. My system with the nice DDR2 memory will do even better then that.
http://www.spec.org/cpu2000/results/cint2000.html
What kind of evidence do you have that your G5 will smoke the Pentium D? I know about the "Apple" study but they conviently "forgot" to use the awesome intel compilier.
And that's assuming I wouldn't overclock the P4 to 3.2GHZ which should be fairly trivial especially if I add in a fancy water cooler like the G5 needs to keep cool.
Pete
I like building my own computer so it's not really a problem. Most people after they have built one don't really want to buy one that's pre-made.
Anyway I wasn't saying - go buy this it's better then the G5 Powermac. The G5 is prebuilt and it's pretested. It's far more elegant on the inside with the cooling zones and the lack of cable clutter. It has a pretty aluminum case and so on. You ARE getting more for your money.
But some guy said that there was no way a "cheap PC" could compete with a 2003 G5. You can buy a cheap PC for about 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of a G5 powermac that's quite competitive. And that's part of the reason that Jobs is switching to Intel.
The Pentium D might not be the greatest chip in the world but it's 90% of the capability of TWO G5's for 260 bucks - and less then that if you can purchase in bulk.
Pete
Ridiculous? Again I was responding to the guy who said it would be 2009 before a PC could outperform his G5 for 500 bucks. I pointed out that for less then a grand you could about surpass or match that performance of BRAND NEW G5 right now.
If you want to add in the "OS" (which I didn't think was necessary because the premise of the thread is running the MacOS on his budget PC box) it doesn't cost much if you buy it with hardware from NewEgg. It's like 90 bucks or something like that.
Pete
$90 for what, Red Hat Linux or XP Pro? XP Home does not count - a fair comparison with OS X is XP Pro.GuyClinch said:
The OS is necessary in the comparison, as its price is built into all Macs. Counting pirateware as a given on one system against licensed software on another proves nothing except poor reasoning.
I can see you've mixed things up, not even recalling that I am "the guy" you're referring to while quoting my post.
Anyhow, the point about a $500 PC not besting a dual G5 still holds, and it was originally made in response to a couple of homebrew PC people who, in earlier pages of this thread, made a contrary claim.
Regarding your newegg special, if that machine increases your productivity and helps you generate income, great. If you don't need to tinker with it all the time, great. If you turn off your registries and keep your antivirus list up to date, great. If defragmenting and periodic reformatting aren't a problem for you, great.
For me, though, the time and trouble I save by choosing Macs is well worth the money, and that saved time and trouble directly translates to better productivity and income.
Why doesn't it COUNT? It runs the software doesn't it? Actually XP Home runs a ton more software then the MacOSX. The point of the operating system is to run your software.
If this kind of thinking makes you feel better then go ahead. I use a program that auto-defrags my hard drive when it's idle. But I don't have to reformat (where did you get that one) and I haven't had any problems with viruses EVER. Just because some people screw up their computers when they are using a PC doesn't mean everyone will. I actually don't download attatchments that are executables nor do use Bit Torrent.
Anyway. I am not disputing that Mac's don't have ADVANTAGES. What I am saying is that the HARDWARE costs are about 2 to 3 times that of equivalent PCs.
Your going to feel pretty surprised when Intel Mac's come out, IMHO. Look at what the developers are saying about the speed of the Intel Mac's right now. I don't think you can put a computer together THAT cheap that bests a dual Powermac in most functions. But for about $1 grand it's not that hard. So the idea that in 4 years that average 500 dollar PC won't smoke a G5 is pretty foolish.
I don't think you will be saying that once you start using one of those development systems or get your hands on the new Intel Powermacs.
Pete
XP Home does not count because it lacks features XP Pro and OS X have. There is no "OS X Home" and "OS X Pro." OS X is fully featured straight away.GuyClinch said:
I meant to make two points: 1. XP requires an extra degree of care and maintenance, and 2. If you're happy with XP, I'm happy for you.GuyClinch said:
No I won't. I'm sure Apple knows what it's doing.GuyClinch said:
What I said is that the $500 computer which will smoke today's dual G5 will be a 2009 Mac mini.GuyClinch said:
jayscheuerle
macrumors 68020
GuyClinch said:
Don't you think that's a little simplistic? I'd say the point of an OS is to enable you to get done whatever you need to get done in the most intuitive/efficient manner, whether it's running programs, connecting to networks or using peripherals. OSX does not have a stripped down version like XP Home, even if someone would only need that.
The parts that Apple has traditionally used in its contemporary machines are the same ones used in the PC world (processor excluded) and I'm sure they get them for a low price like any one of the major PC makers does. What you're paying for, all that extra money, is for quality design, materials and fabrication. Apple could make machines that use standard PC hardware and run ONLY XP (or whatever Windows variant you want) and they would cost the same as their current machines as they would have the same quality craftsmanship and execution. They COULD make great, high-end PCs, but what's the point if they're running a less than great, high-end OS? What makes a Mac a Mac is not OSX (OSX on a Dell would not be a Mac), and though a Powerbook only capable of running XP would be considered an Apple product, a Mac is a high end machine that runs Apple's OS.
If you've bought a Mac, you know what you want and you know what you're getting and you know that it's worth the extra $1000 over a generic PC... - j
GuyClinch is right. You can make a good PC on the cheep that will hang with the powermacs. I built my PC out of parts off newegg in january for $500 and it is nice (2.2 ghz athlon xp, 1.5gb ram, 200gb hd, 16x dL dvd burner, ati radeon 9800 pro). I'm not saying that it would "compete" with a G5 or anything, but it complements my G4 imac nicely and plays games a hell of a lot better, which is all I was going for in this machine. This is not a lot of money spent for a dedicated games machine (especially considering the predicted prices of the next gen consoles), and it does more than just play games.
Either way, my usb kvm switch is teh shizznit.
Either way, my usb kvm switch is teh shizznit.
GuyClinch said:
if your comparing to a dual 2.7GHz G5 no pc can be as fast under $1k, to compete you need either a dual 2.6GHz opteron or a dual 3.6GHz xeon, or possibly a dual dual core opteron but thats in another class.
and no i'm not just quoteing from apples numbers i have seen many a good test of a G5 Vs a pc and it dose very well, it's roughly on par with a K8 clock for clock.
no single dual core cpu can compete with a dual 2.7GHz powermac at the moment a 4800+ comes close to a dual 2.5 and is slightly faster than a 2.3GHz G5, stop copareing G5's to tinny slow cpu's like the dual core P4, a top of the line extreme edition is comparable to a dual 2GHz powermac, and if you configure a pc with it retail it comes to about the same if not more if you match every spec.
to say you can build a fast pc on the cheap is true but you cant say that it'll be as fast as a top of the line G5, you pay a premium at the top end, you pay an extra $600 for a extreme edition pentium D just for hyperthreading, apple dose not do a low end consumer tower and probably never will so stop saying "you can save $1k for 90% of the performance" when it's more like 75% of the performance and when you compare an equal pc it comes out the same.
and to AMD fans bashing the G5 for only getting a 200MHz speedbump, guess what the K8 got with the FX-57 you guessed it an 200MHz speedbump in nearly a year --_--.
as i have said many times before apple is not switching for current hardware which it competes very well against it's switching for hardware of 2006/7.
jayscheuerle
macrumors 68020
Hector said:
They're switching because they have no viable low power/low heat options for both portables and the small form factor machines which are Apple's forté. Apple likes cutting edge design and these days, that means SMALL. Can't go there with a G5, no matter how fast of a chip it is.
apple would not trade off desktop for portable power, if powermac sales would stagnate because of the switch they would not have done it, the G5 would get to be in a powerbook it'd just take longer than they would have liked, it's not just as simple as they want a mobile cpu,
oh and i configured an equivilent pc at newegg from parts to a dual 2.7GHz powermac and guess what it comes to?
Update Lian Li PC-V2000A Silver Aluminum ATX Full Tower Computer Case - Retail
Model #: PC-V2000A
Remove Save Move To Wish List
$238.00 $238.00
Cables
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
1 AMC 8" 4-Pin Power Cable Splitter Model Y Power Cable - OEM
Model #: Y Power Cable $5.00 -$5.00 Sale $0.00
CD/DVD Burners (RW Drives)
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
Update Pioneer Black IDE DVD Burner Model DVR-109 BK - OEM
Model #: DVR-109 BK
**This item is warranted through the product manufacturer only. <
Remove Save Move To Wish List
$48.00 $48.00
Internal Hard Drives
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
Update HITACHI Deskstar T7K250 0A31636 250GB 7200 RPM Serial ATA II Hard Drive - OEM
Model #: 0A31636
Remove Save Move To Wish List
$127.00 $127.00
Operating Systems
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
Update Microsoft Windows XP Professional 64BIT Edition 1 package - OEM
Model #: ZAT-00007
**Software delivered damaged and/or defective may be returned for an identical replacement.
Remove Save Move To Wish List
$154.95 $154.95
Power Supplies
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
Update Antec TRUEPOWERII TPII-550 ATX12V 550W Power Supply - Retail
Model #: TPII-550
Remove Save Move To Wish List
$89.00 $89.00
Processors
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
Update AMD Opteron 252 Troy 1GHz FSB Socket 940 Processor Model OSA252BLBOX - Retail
Model #: OSA252BLBOX
**This item is warranted through the product manufacturer only. <
Remove Save Move To Wish List
$865.00 $1,730.00
Server Motherboards
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
Update TYAN S2885ANRF Dual Socket 940 AMD 8131 + 8151 SSI EEB V3.0 Server Motherboard - Retail
Model #: S2885ANRF
**This item is warranted through the product manufacturer only. <
Remove Save Move To Wish List
$414.00 $414.00
Video Cards & Related Devices
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
Update HIS Hightech R8K-48 Radeon 9600 256MB DDR AGP 4X/8X Video Card - Retail
Model #: R8K-48
Remove Save Move To Wish List
$126.00 $126.00
Subtotal: $2,926.95
Total(before tax): $2,926.95
and that was with no ram so you'd have to bump the price accordingly, and i'm sure a dual xeon will come to about the same if not more.
oh and i configured an equivilent pc at newegg from parts to a dual 2.7GHz powermac and guess what it comes to?
Update Lian Li PC-V2000A Silver Aluminum ATX Full Tower Computer Case - Retail
Model #: PC-V2000A
Remove Save Move To Wish List
$238.00 $238.00
Cables
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
1 AMC 8" 4-Pin Power Cable Splitter Model Y Power Cable - OEM
Model #: Y Power Cable $5.00 -$5.00 Sale $0.00
CD/DVD Burners (RW Drives)
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
Update Pioneer Black IDE DVD Burner Model DVR-109 BK - OEM
Model #: DVR-109 BK
**This item is warranted through the product manufacturer only. <
Remove Save Move To Wish List
$48.00 $48.00
Internal Hard Drives
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
Update HITACHI Deskstar T7K250 0A31636 250GB 7200 RPM Serial ATA II Hard Drive - OEM
Model #: 0A31636
Remove Save Move To Wish List
$127.00 $127.00
Operating Systems
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
Update Microsoft Windows XP Professional 64BIT Edition 1 package - OEM
Model #: ZAT-00007
**Software delivered damaged and/or defective may be returned for an identical replacement.
Remove Save Move To Wish List
$154.95 $154.95
Power Supplies
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
Update Antec TRUEPOWERII TPII-550 ATX12V 550W Power Supply - Retail
Model #: TPII-550
Remove Save Move To Wish List
$89.00 $89.00
Processors
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
Update AMD Opteron 252 Troy 1GHz FSB Socket 940 Processor Model OSA252BLBOX - Retail
Model #: OSA252BLBOX
**This item is warranted through the product manufacturer only. <
Remove Save Move To Wish List
$865.00 $1,730.00
Server Motherboards
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
Update TYAN S2885ANRF Dual Socket 940 AMD 8131 + 8151 SSI EEB V3.0 Server Motherboard - Retail
Model #: S2885ANRF
**This item is warranted through the product manufacturer only. <
Remove Save Move To Wish List
$414.00 $414.00
Video Cards & Related Devices
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
Update HIS Hightech R8K-48 Radeon 9600 256MB DDR AGP 4X/8X Video Card - Retail
Model #: R8K-48
Remove Save Move To Wish List
$126.00 $126.00
Subtotal: $2,926.95
Total(before tax): $2,926.95
and that was with no ram so you'd have to bump the price accordingly, and i'm sure a dual xeon will come to about the same if not more.
What features? I bet you don't even know. Your just going by the name of the OS. XP Home is full featured. Don't act like it's some stripped down OS that barely works.
Like I said PROVE IT. You keep guys that but your just plucking this out of thin air. Of course it depends ENTIRELY on what functions your having your computer do. Int operations are what your computer does most of the time and the lowly p4 with the netburst is PROVEN to be quite competitive in this regard.
Here we go - look at the SINGLE CORE P4 2.8E
So we are talking about a SpecInt of around 1300 for the 2.8 Pentium 4.
http://www.spec.org/cpu2000/results/res2004q4/cpu2000-20041115-03594.html
The ONLY official listing for the G5 that I could find is the 2.2GHZ Blade from IBM
http://www.spec.org/cpu2000/results/res2004q4/cpu2000-20041011-03436.html
The score around a thousand SpecInt. So umm.. I don't see this great G5 superiority.
And that's just a plain old P4. Most of the code used in everyday computing is interger. So..well you can draw the logical conclusion. The idea that only server processors should be compared to the G5 is just not accurate especially when your testing something besides server functions.
It's not a big deal. You guys will find out what I am saying soon enough. The supposed huge G5 advantage was on VERY specialized code that used specialized operations that your computer isn't using most of the time.
The G5's that I have used seem "sluggish" when it comes to general "responsiveness." I always chalked that up to OSX. But now with the word of the developers coming out I am not so sure that was fair to Apple. The fact that they resorted to liquid cooling a processor in their regular systems is a sign that the G5 was really lagging behind, IMHO.
That P4 D your guys don't like would hit 3.6 GHZ easy on watercooling. Watercooling is just SO much more efficent then air cooling.
Pete