Mac OS X on a PC?

[Beeblebrox]

i'm not pointing out single details, it seems you are, if you compare to pc's with every spec equal possible only one mac comes under par and thats the single 1.8GHz powermac.

I just compared them and the Mac is far and away more expensive. The only way you could make the Mac come out ahead is to apply a $1000 value to a longer battery life and an ounce less in weight. And that's absurd. It's like when Apple users break a tie by saying the Apple has more "style," like that has some monetary value that balances everything out.

You can nitpick the one or two details where the Powerbook or the Mac mini come out slightly better and pretend like that's worth all the difference, but in terms of overall hardware, there's simply no comparison. The PC is less expensive.

 

[Mord]

I just compared them and the Mac is far and away more expensive. The only way you could make the Mac come out ahead is to apply a $1000 value to a longer battery life and an ounce less in weight. And that's absurd. It's like when Apple users break a tie by saying the Apple has more "style," like that has some monetary value that balances everything out.

You can nitpick the one or two details where the Powerbook or the Mac mini come out slightly better and pretend like that's worth all the difference, but in terms of overall hardware, there's simply no comparison. The PC is less expensive.

send links to comparisons with exact specs

 

[Beeblebrox]

send links to comparisons with exact specs

Why don't you do that and show me how a comparably equipped PC somehow comes out more expensive than a Mac. And do it on the low end, the high end, and the laptop so we get a fair comparison. And don't forget that the Mini does not come with a keyboard or mouse so you have to add in that dollar amount or at least the price of a KVM switch.

 

[HAViK]

I just compared them and the Mac is far and away more expensive. The only way you could make the Mac come out ahead is to apply a $1000 value to a longer battery life and an ounce less in weight. And that's absurd. It's like when Apple users break a tie by saying the Apple has more "style," like that has some monetary value that balances everything out.

You can nitpick the one or two details where the Powerbook or the Mac mini come out slightly better and pretend like that's worth all the difference, but in terms of overall hardware, there's simply no comparison. The PC is less expensive.

Haha... hmmm. Style has no monetary value, Versace vs Wal*Mart anyone?

 

[Mord]

a cappuccino EZ3 which is about the same size as the mini:

1.26GHz P3
256MB of pc133 (which is the max allowed)
40GB HD
combo drive
XP pro
intel integrated 815 graphics

total $1024

http://www.cappuccinopc.com/ (to check you'd have to spec out yourself it uses a system which i cant just send you the link to.

mac mini

1.25GHz G4 pisses all over the P3
256MB DDR 2700
40GB HD
combo drive
OS X
radeon 9200 pisses all over the intel crap

$500

the mac mini it the most amazing low cost hardware apple has ever made and to compare it to full size pc's it still dose well even though it is not even in the same class.

what i am getting at is that ppc stuff costs no more than x86 stuff it's just apple offers quality systems which push the prices up and when you compare to a quality pc it comes out the same or better.

 

[Beeblebrox]

what i am getting at is that ppc stuff costs no more than x86 stuff it's just apple offers quality systems which push the prices up and when you compare to a quality pc it comes out the same or better.

That's a good comparison between the cappucino and the Mac mini, but it still misses the point. You can get a better PC with more powerful hardware for less money than the Mac mini. Clearly the cappucino is not only outrageously expensive but grossly underpowered. An equivalent system without the nano ITX mb would obviously cost a fraction of the price. And I don't think the mini size of either system is worth the money.

And if you compare the laptops:

Apple 15" PB
15.2" widescreen LCD
1.5GHz PowerPC G4
512MB RAM
80GB HDD
ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 (64 MB DDR)
Gigabit Ethernet
USB/FW
802.11g built in
5.6 lbs
4.5 hr battery life
Combo drive

$2000

Toshiba M30X
15.4" widescreen LCD
1.6GHz P4
512MB RAM
60GB HDD
ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 (64 MB DDR)
802.11g built in
USB/FW
6.6 lbs
3.5 hr battery life
Combo drive

$1340

Dell Inspiron 6000
1.6GHz P4
15.4" widescreen LCD
512MB RAM
80 GB HDD
ATI Radeon X300 (64 MB DDR)
802.11g built in
USB/FW
5 hr battery life

$1257

With the exception of Nano ITX mbs (which I concede is cheaper on the Mac), Apple loses the overall hardware cost comparison.

Btw, I couldn't find the weight on the Sony, but these were all coming in at about 6 lbs or so each.

 

[BenRoethig]

That's a good comparison between the cappucino and the Mac mini, but it still misses the point. You can get a better PC with more powerful hardware for less money than the Mac mini. Clearly the cappucino is not only outrageously expensive but grossly underpowered. An equivalent system without the nano ITX mb would obviously cost a fraction of the price. And I don't think the mini size of either system is worth the money.

And if you compare the laptops:

Apple 15" PB
15.2" widescreen LCD
1.5GHz PowerPC G4
512MB RAM
80GB HDD
ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 (64 MB DDR)
Gigabit Ethernet
USB/FW
802.11g built in
5.6 lbs
4.5 hr battery life
Combo drive

$2000

Toshiba M30X
15.4" widescreen LCD
1.6GHz P4
512MB RAM
60GB HDD
ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 (64 MB DDR)
802.11g built in
USB/FW
6.6 lbs
3.5 hr battery life
Combo drive

$1340

Dell Inspiron 6000
1.6GHz P4
15.4" widescreen LCD
512MB RAM
80 GB HDD
ATI Radeon X300 (64 MB DDR)
802.11g built in
USB/FW
5 hr battery life

$1257

With the exception of Nano ITX mbs (which I concede is cheaper on the Mac), Apple loses the overall hardware cost comparison.

Btw, I couldn't find the weight on the Sony, but these were all coming in at about 6 lbs or so each.

I'd like to note that both PCs are DTR P4 systems. You're going to want to compare it to a similar thin and light. Let me take a stab here.

ASUS V6V

Intel® Pentium® M 750 (1.86GHz, 533MHz FSB, 2MB L2 cache)
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional
Intel Centrino Mobile Technology with Intel 915GM Chipset
15" SXGA+ (1400x1050) "Color Shine" LCD panel
60GB hard drive
ATI Mobility™ Radeon™ X600 64MB graphics processor
512MB DDR2 400 memory, upgradable to 2G
Bluetooth™ and 802.11a/b/g wireless
4x USB 2.0, 1394, Card-reader, PCMCIA slot, Infrared port support IrDA, SPDIF
5.2 lbs, 13" x 10.7" x 1"

$2100. Thin and light notebooks tend to be more expensive than traditonal notebooks.

 

[FFTT]

How do those prices compare when you add Apple's iLIfe'05 Suite and all the utilities and basic applications included in OSX?

If you break down the cost of these features and add them to the cost
of your "cheaper" PC, then how do they stack up?
Don't forget Windows also requires a good security suite.
So that's more money.
Oh and then how much are you going to spend in 2 years to covert your entire system, hardware and software over to Longhorn?

And....really,
how much is your time worth when you need to constantly check and upgrade your system to protect it from Windows targeted security issues?

Perhaps it all doesn't matter because you're paid by the hour anyway and you benefit from years of Microsoft certified training. For now.

No system is perfect, but the idea of using a computer is to help you be more productive AND creative with your work in an easy to use and enjoyable format.

How much hassle are you willing to put up with over 4 years to save a few
$100 bucks?

 

[Beeblebrox]

If you break down the cost of these features and add them to the cost of your PC, thenhow do they stack up?

I don't include ANY of the add-on software because most of that stuff is just window dressing, just as I don't count the inclusion of value-added software from the likes of Dell or Gateway. If most people had to choose between getting the software or paying less money for the computer, I believe they'd pay less money.

That said, ILife is a great suite of software and well worth having. I don't use much of it myself (I use the pro packages from Apple) but I can see where it would be useful to the average user.

Don't forget Windows also requires a good security suite. So that's more money.

Most prebuilt systems come with security software pre-installed. And besides that, there are free security programs.

And how much is your time worth when you need to constantly check and upgrade your system to protect it from Windows targeted security issues?

I spend almost no time with security issues on my PC. I have virus protection running in the BG and I don't open attachments with exe files. So unless my time is worth $1000 a minute (it isn't) then that's not going to make up that cost difference.

No system is perfect, but the idea of using a computer is to help you be more productive AND creative with your work in an easy to use and enjoyable format.

I do that now with both Windows and Mac. There's no difference for me in day to day operation of the computer. I'm a little slower on the Mac because I'm not as accustomed to the OS, but obviously that's me and not the OS, just as it would be for a Mac user going to Windows (and for which he would no doubt blame Windows).

How much hassle are you willing to put up with over 4 years to save a few $100 bucks?

The hassles I face with a PC are exactly the hassles I face with the Mac, which is basically the occassional hardware problem, an issue from which Macs are hardly immune. Both systems run basically problem and crash free virtually all the time.

 

[Beeblebrox]

Thin and light notebooks tend to be more expensive than traditonal notebooks.

Obviously it's possible to spend way more money on both PCs and Apples. I think the issue here is whether or not you can get the same power and features for the same money. I know some users put a lot of value in look and feel, but most people don't. The PB is definitely lighter, but is that half pound worth $700? To some it will be, in which case I'd probably recommend the PB over the ASUS. But to most it won't.

 

[Mord]

That's a good comparison between the cappucino and the Mac mini, but it still misses the point. You can get a better PC with more powerful hardware for less money than the Mac mini. Clearly the cappucino is not only outrageously expensive but grossly underpowered. An equivalent system without the nano ITX mb would obviously cost a fraction of the price. And I don't think the mini size of either system is worth the money.

And if you compare the laptops:

Apple 15" PB
15.2" widescreen LCD
1.5GHz PowerPC G4
512MB RAM
80GB HDD
ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 (64 MB DDR)
Gigabit Ethernet
USB/FW
802.11g built in
5.6 lbs
4.5 hr battery life
Combo drive

$2000

Toshiba M30X
15.4" widescreen LCD
1.6GHz P4
512MB RAM
60GB HDD
ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 (64 MB DDR)
802.11g built in
USB/FW
6.6 lbs
3.5 hr battery life
Combo drive

$1340

Dell Inspiron 6000
1.6GHz P4
15.4" widescreen LCD
512MB RAM
80 GB HDD
ATI Radeon X300 (64 MB DDR)
802.11g built in
USB/FW
5 hr battery life

$1257

With the exception of Nano ITX mbs (which I concede is cheaper on the Mac), Apple loses the overall hardware cost comparison.

Btw, I couldn't find the weight on the Sony, but these were all coming in at about 6 lbs or so each.

1.6GHz p4's are slow as sh*t, a 700MHz g4 can keep up with them (willamete core was a POS and was beaten by a lower clocked P3)

 

[Beeblebrox]

1.6GHz p4's are slow as sh*t, a 700MHz g4 can keep up with them (willamete core was a POS and was beaten by a lower clocked P3)

Then upgrade the processor. You've got $700 to play with before you spend as much as you would on the Apple PB. Although at this rate I'm sure you'll deny that ANY PC processor is a match for even the lowest end Mac.

 

[mtscott]

Beeblebrox is just trolling the forums guys. I'm pretty sure Beeblebrox/Timelessblur and another are all the same person.

 

[Mord]

i'm not a fanboy at all heck i have an AMD self built pc, a 1.5GHz G4 is about the same as a 2.4GHz P4 or a Pentium M of the same clock speed.

the point i'm getting at is that when you do match up every single spec including build quality and battery life thickness ect you get to the same price, the only laptops that compare to the powerbook are thinkpads and they cost loads, so there is not cost advantage for apple to make a mac os x x86 box at all

 

[g5_11]

OS X on PC

OS X should never enter the pc world. This would be giving in to an inferior line of products. Clearly apple needs to be unique and attract as many people that are fed up with pcs as they can.

 

[FFTT]

Many times I think some of our visitors don't understand that Macs
are far more ready to go to work, right out of the box.

If you had to buy compatible Windows software to match
the features included with OSX and iLife'05, there would be little
difference in the overall prices of basic systems.

Sometimes people try to justify their mistakes by finding fault
with what they should have bought in the first place.

If you prefer Windows, BY ALL MEANS enjoy it!

If you find using Windows is a royal pain in the ass,
OSX offers a great alternative.

 

[iJohn]

Getting back to OS X on x86. It will only happen as a last ditch effort on Apple’s part. An x86 release is like Apple's doomsday weapon against Windows.
Jobs probably has a big red Apple logo button with a locked cover on it on his desk. If he presses the button it launches the purchase page of the x86 version of OS X on Apple's front page and starts up the DVD presses deep in the core of the Earth managed by the Mole People.

LOL!

Don't for get the two key's that need to be turned simultaneously. I'm not sure who would be in charge of turning the other key but it helps to prevent accidental launches. Go rent the moive War Games to get a better idea of what I'm talking about.

 

[Gohan]

1.6GHz p4's are slow as sh*t, a 700MHz g4 can keep up with them (willamete core was a POS and was beaten by a lower clocked P3)

Those are P-M 1.6's 2mb L2 cache not P4's

 

[jiggie2g]

1.6GHz p4's are slow as sh*t, a 700MHz g4 can keep up with them (willamete core was a POS and was beaten by a lower clocked P3)

He ment Pentium M as that's the only Processor other then Celeron m THE INSPIRON 6000 comes with. by the was a Pentum M at 1.6 will blow any G4 to crap pus look at that bus 167mhz for the G4 vs. 533mhz for the Pentium M which makes a world of a difference in stuff like Video and Photo editing for filters and encoding.

Rule of thumb.

Pentium M (dothan) is equavalient to a P4 clocked 1-1.2Ghz higher depending on task. Plus it has 2MB L2 cache so you should be comparing it to a 600 series P4.

example

Pentium M at 1.6ghz = 2.6-2.8ghz P4

G4 1.67ghz = 2.2ghz P4 (about a 500mhz performance gap at same clock between P4 and G4)

Hector knows dog pooh about CPU's to even compare a G4 to a Pentium M , that's like comparing a Dodge Neon Based SRT-4 to a Mitsibishi Lancer Evolution , not even in the same League of Performance.

you didn't even account the HUGE difference in Bus Speed.

Sure PowerBooks are Beautiful and superbly built machines. but a Pretty powerbook is not gonna make me feel better when the guy next to with the Pentium M notebook finishes his renders and filters a whole 5-10min faster.

 

[Mord]

it really is task dependent with the P-M, it's FPU is slow as **** but it's an integer monster.

the 7447A is overpriced at the moment a 1.42GHz g4 costs about $200 bulk compared to a 1.6GHz P-M at $120, this will all change when the 970GX is in the powerbook.

 

[jiggie2g]

it really is task dependent with the P-M, it's FPU is slow as **** but it's an integer monster.

the 7447A is overpriced at the moment a 1.42GHz g4 costs about $200 bulk compared to a 1.6GHz P-M at $120, this will all change when the 970GX is in the powerbook.

The Pentium M's are Monsters ,I have seen them Overclock up to 2.5ghz stable and at those speeds you better worry about your precious G5 getting trouced let alone a G4.

The G4 is a Dog that should have been put out of it's misery 3yrs ago. Instead Apple is too busy trying to sell you overclocked parts from it's old stock bin in a new wrapper and call it an upgrade. mean while IBM is having a great time frying eggs with it's PPC 970(G5) series, they should have a contest with Intel on who can melt the motherboard 1st thier G5 or Prescott.

AMD is laughing at them as thier 2nd Gen 90nm A64 chips comeout next week (Venice) and well see the FX-57(San Diego) by mid April. Then DC chips in the summer.

Intel's Pentium M is Destined to be the future Darling for thier desktop line and will be revised with a better FPU. It's also going Dual core(Yonah) in 1Q 2006 with a new 667mhz PCIe bus running DDR2.


I don't care what IBM does with thier PPC 970. it will never run well in a notebook unless they redesinged the CPU from scratch. Pentium M's are super low voltage and only eat up 25w , and the AMD Turion 64 will do 30-35W.
Apple has no answer for any of this. they might as well put up the white flag on the PPC market and go port that lovely OS of thiers to x86.

 

[Mord]

The Pentium M's are Monsters ,I have seen them Overclock up to 2.5ghz stable and at those speeds you better worry about your precious G5 getting trouced let alone a G4.

The G4 is a Dog that should have been put out of it's misery 3yrs ago. Instead Apple is too busy trying to sell you overclocked parts from it's old stock bin in a new wrapper and call it an upgrade. mean while IBM is having a great time frying eggs with it's PPC 970(G5) series, they should have a contest with Intel on who can melt the motherboard 1st thier G5 or Prescott.

AMD is laughing at them as thier 2nd Gen 90nm A64 chips comeout next week (Venice) and well see the FX-57(San Diego) by mid April. Then DC chips in the summer.

Intel's Pentium M is Destined to be the future Darling for thier desktop line and will be revised with a better FPU. It's also going Dual core(Yonah) in 1Q 2006 with a new 667mhz PCIe bus running DDR2.


I don't care what IBM does with thier PPC 970. it will never run well in a notebook unless they redesinged the CPU from scratch. Pentium M's are super low voltage and only eat up 25w , and the AMD Turion 64 will do 30-35W.
Apple has no answer for any of this. they might as well put up the white flag on the PPC market and go port that lovely OS of thiers to x86.

you know nothing of apples plans, the G5 is going dual core in the next month or so beofore intel and AMD, also the 970GX will go in the powerbook, also the G5 is not particularly hot the 970FX dissipates 25w at 2GHz which is fine for pc laptops as they have always on fans and are much thicker, apple is run by a perfectionist and will not make a laptop that sacrifices size the g5 needs to be below, you may say the G5 needs watercooling because it runs so hot, again not true it only dissaptes 50w at 2.5GHz compared to a 3.8GHz p4's 100w, it has watercooling to keep it silent which is also the reason the G5 has 8 fans, so they can all run at low speeds to keep quiet. motorola has fallen behind, if it kept up with the industrys growth the G4 would be pretty good at higher clock speeds.

35w is terrible for a mobile chip, the turion is just a heatbinned AMD64 it's nothing special at all, the pentium M is the best thing intel has going for it, if they kick up the FPU, it'll be as near perfect as a x86 cpu can be, apple has a slower update cycle than the pc world and they remain competitive when nearly all of there product line is about to be updated, the powerpc will be the basis for all the next gen consoles and loads of embedded applications with the cell, it also had the best % increase in clock speed from it's introduction compared to anything elce to this day. (25% compared to intel and AMD about 22%).

 

[jiggie2g]

you know nothing of apples plans, the G5 is going dual core in the next month or so beofore intel and AMD, also the 970GX will go in the powerbook, also the G5 is not particularly hot the 970FX dissipates 25w at 2GHz which is fine for pc laptops as they have always on fans and are much thicker, apple is run by a perfectionist and will not make a laptop that sacrifices size the g5 needs to be below, you may say the G5 needs watercooling because it runs so hot, again not true it only dissaptes 50w at 2.5GHz compared to a 3.8GHz p4's 100w, it has watercooling to keep it silent which is also the reason the G5 has 8 fans, so they can all run at low speeds to keep quiet. motorola has fallen behind, if it kept up with the industrys growth the G4 would be pretty good at higher clock speeds.

35w is terrible for a mobile chip, the turion is just a heatbinned AMD64 it's nothing special at all, the pentium M is the best thing intel has going for it, if they kick up the FPU, it'll be as near perfect as a x86 cpu can be, apple has a slower update cycle than the pc world and they remain competitive when nearly all of there product line is about to be updated, the powerpc will be the basis for all the next gen consoles and loads of embedded applications with the cell, it also had the best % increase in clock speed from it's introduction compared to anything elce to this day. (25% compared to intel and AMD about 22%).

Well 1st u need to understand that the PowerMac G5 is not watercooled so stop drinking the mac cool aid. It uses a Heat pipe which has a bit of liquid in it but does not qualify as a water kit. Apple should be sue'd for that type of misleading advertisment. Yes 8 fans very nice & fancy who care's it's still 2yr old parts.

My Antec Sonata case with 2x 120MM fans is just as quiet as your precious G5 and will Cursh it in any benchmark with my Athlon 64 3200+ OC'd @ 2.6ghz, this is from a $175 cpu.

No the DC G5 will go into production next month not for sale Paper Launch does not count, AMD and Intel will have DC in stores by June-July Latest. The PowerBook is not getting a G5 anytime soon how many times does Phil Schiller have to tell you that. you guys have been predicting a Powerbook G5 since last july.

By that time I say 4Q 2005 that the Powerbook does get a G5 everyone else will be setting up for DC in notebooks. so nice try either way apple is screwed.

Here's my setup: apple take note.

Windows XP Pro SP2
AMD Athlon 3200+ @ 2.6ghz(winchester) Socket 939
DFI Lanparty UT NF4 Ultra-D PCIe / SLI Modded.
Corsair XMS 3200XL 2-2-2-5 timings 1GB (512x2) running at PC520 Speed.
ATI Radeon X800XL 256MB GDDR3
Hitachi Deskstar 250 SATA HD 7200rpm 8MB cache 8.5ms seek time.
Antec Sonata case w/ 2x 120mm fans
Antec NeoPower 480W PSU
Zalman CNPS 7700-CU Pure copper heatsink 120MM fan/ 160 copper fins / w Artic Silver 5 Thermal Paste.
NEC ND-3500A 16X DVD+-RW , 4X DVD+R DL , 48X CD-R , 32X CD-RW.
NEC Drive is Firmware hacked for Region free, DVD+R Booktype bitsetting , and DVD-ROM Speed Rip lock.

This is State of the Art. Cutting Edge . G5 is not.

 

[Mord]

Well 1st u need to understand that the PowerMac G5 is not watercooled so stop drinking the mac cool aid. It uses a Heat pipe which has a bit of liquid in it but does not qualify as a water kit. Apple should be sue'd for that type of misleading advertisment. Yes 8 fans very nice & fancy who care's it's still 2yr old parts.

My Antec Sonata case with 2x 120MM fans is just as quiet as your precious G5 and will Cursh it in any benchmark with my Athlon 64 3200+ OC'd @ 2.6ghz, this is from a $175 cpu.

No the DC G5 will go into production next month not for sale Paper Launch does not count, AMD and Intel will have DC in stores by June-July Latest. The PowerBook is not getting a G5 anytime soon how many times does Phil Schiller have to tell you that. you guys have been predicting a Powerbook G5 since last july.

By that time I say 4Q 2005 that the Powerbook does get a G5 everyone else will be setting up for DC in notebooks. so nice try either way apple is screwed.

as an apple certified technician i can tell you the dual 2.5GHz g5 uses active watercooling, there is your AMD getting owned http://www.barefeats.com/macvpc.html in all but one test, (your amd has 512k cache so will suck. we dont give a **** about your overclock i could overclock a G4 with liquid nitrocgen and beat the **** out of pretty much anything non overclocked do you care? no.

i'm not just taking wild guesses here i have information , i know 100% the G5's will be updated within the next month with dual core chips.

 

[jane doe]

Well 1st u need to understand that the PowerMac G5 is not watercooled so stop drinking the mac cool aid. It uses a Heat pipe which has a bit of liquid in it but does not qualify as a water kit. Apple should be sue'd for that type of misleading advertisment. Yes 8 fans very nice & fancy who care's it's still 2yr old parts.

My Antec Sonata case with 2x 120MM fans is just as quiet as your precious G5 and will Cursh it in any benchmark with my Athlon 64 3200+ OC'd @ 2.6ghz, this is from a $175 cpu.

It's not???? Damn I thought it was.... thats why the IOkit has pump and fan parameters!