Exactly, if there isnt difference between leopard, and snow leopard other than tweaks specifically for intel based computers, why get all pissy?
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Mac OS X Snow Leopard Drops PowerPC Support
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Exactly, if there isnt difference between leopard, and snow leopard other than tweaks specifically for intel based computers, why get all pissy?
There is a bigger problem here
Apple needs to be supporting older OSX releases with updates, beyond their simplistic previous-version-only method. If OSX is going to be coming out more often, with less improvements, that means older OSes are getting less support, which is an even bigger deal for PPC owners.
Apple needs to be supporting older OSX releases with updates, beyond their simplistic previous-version-only method. If OSX is going to be coming out more often, with less improvements, that means older OSes are getting less support, which is an even bigger deal for PPC owners.
I think you're a little confused. Rosetta is an emulator: it emulates a PPC processor on an Intel chip so that you can run applications that were compiled PPC-only. Universal binaries will run natively on both Intel machines and PPC machines without emulation, but if you don't want the apps to run on PPC machines at all (as there is no comparable emulator that runs on PPC), you can just compile them Intel-only, and they'll be fine.
That would make sense, but if so, then Mac Office 2004 owners won't be happy either (at least those who prefer 04 to 08).
You PPC users are acting like this is the end of the world!
You will still be able to run Leopard to ITS full potential on your machines, and it's not like Apple is going to stop bringing out patches and updates for Leopard (that includes PPC and Intel).
It will taper off...sure, thats technology for ya. But I highly doubt that would happen anytime soon.
You will still be able to run Leopard to ITS full potential on your machines, and it's not like Apple is going to stop bringing out patches and updates for Leopard (that includes PPC and Intel).
It will taper off...sure, thats technology for ya. But I highly doubt that would happen anytime soon.
Why would dropping PPC support necessarily save space? AFAIK only the right version gets installed on your machine- you can't clone the HD from an Intel Mac and use it to boot up a PPC Mac.
I can however see Intel-focused optimizations in Snow Leopard. It wouldn't necessarily rule out PPC support, just means you're not going to get as much benefit on a PPC machine.
Finally, I see even less reason to drop Rosetta. There are always going to be legacy apps out there that are no longer actively developed, why drop support for them? (unless there is a valid technical reason to do so.)
I can however see Intel-focused optimizations in Snow Leopard. It wouldn't necessarily rule out PPC support, just means you're not going to get as much benefit on a PPC machine.
Finally, I see even less reason to drop Rosetta. There are always going to be legacy apps out there that are no longer actively developed, why drop support for them? (unless there is a valid technical reason to do so.)
I've only got two PPC Macs, but you won't hear me complaining about dropping support in the next OS. I haven't even upgraded to Leopard yet, although I'm sure my primary Mac [1.33GHz G4 PB] would run it well enough. I figure I might as well wait to buy a new Mac to upgrade the OS, and pick up the new Time Capsule and wireless n kit at the same time. Dropping PPC not only makes the code leaner and faster, it also gives me one more argument to use when I attempt to convince my wife we need to drop $4K on shiny new Apple computer gear.
I cannot believe you think it's that easy. I can't believe you think it's free. That's almost insulting.
It is not free. Who the hell is going to pay for the engineers to support an arch that hasn't been sold for a few years? That's not even counting all the developer/user relations people, all the QA people, all the marketing people..all the third party developers...
It is not that easy, given all of the developer candy in Leopard and Snow Leopard alike (and honestly, there's way more developer candy than anything else, including end-user features).
Just wait until more people are on Leopard. There are so many things in Leopard alone that is insanely tempting and not backwards-compatible with Tiger. And then once Snow Leopard becomes popular, then Leopard will be dropped cause there'll be new things in turn. I wish I could expand on that so much given the sessions I'm attending at WWDC right now..it hasn't even been more than a couple of days and I'm already so excited.
I am completely flabbergasted by the vast majority of comments here, and it's obvious that almost nobody here does any development work. It sucks that Apple is dropping PowerPC support in Snow Leopard, but by the time it comes out it will have been YEARS since, and it's not like you have to upgrade, for ****s sake I still use Tiger on one of my machines. Apple will provide security updates and miscellanea for a little longer for Leopard. Then at that point it will have been like what, 7-8? years since the transition possibly? Maybe even longer?! You actually use computers that long? The computer I had 8 years ago is relegated to a box somewhere in my closet to pull out when guests are over because it's so slow and power hungry and slow and expensive to maintain.
Even then nothing is stopping you from using Leopard still. Honestly I still deal with friends and their parents who are still on the likes of Jaguar and Panther, and Apple definitely doesn't support those anymore.
So please stop whining about it.
That's not true. There will be people running G5s on 10.4 w/Classic support for a long time. Is Snow Leopard going to be the end of security updates for Tiger?
I have two PPC chip computers... a G4 powerbook (3 years old) and a G5 tower (3 years old). I feel for those who feel like they are getting shafted but as an owner who won't be able to take advantage of snow leopard without a hardware upgrade, I say bring on the change.
Those who have taken their G4 tower that used to run OS 9.2 and have upgraded it through Leopard are in the minority. Most Mac users I know don't even know or care about upgrading the operating system. They upgrade when I say they ought to. If Apple wants to or feels the need to make a sweeping change for the benefit of many or most, I'm on board with it. Nothing Apple does will make everyone happy.
On the one hand, I also think there's an issue of semantics here. Your (or more directly, MY) processors will still be "supported" as they are now... indeed better than when I bought them with Panther. So PPC's are still "supported" in that sense, which runs counter to the "my computer is no longer supported" argument I've heard in this thread. What is meant is that your computer is no longer upgradable, operating-system-wise. This would be a problem if this upgrade was revolutionary, not evolutionary.
On the other hand, I don't think anyone in my camp can effectively say that Snow Leopard is 100% without new user benefits. As has been mentioned it comes with Quicktime X, Exchange support, OpenCL and others. But I don't think these "new user features" can be appropriately sold as "new user features" that warrant a paid upgrade cost. Which leads me to...
I have a gut feeling that this upgrade will either be $129 in cost OR will support PPC's... but not both at the same time (witness 10.1 as an example). Sure it might cost something, but $129 seems steep, even for Apple. I don't think it will happen.
Those who have taken their G4 tower that used to run OS 9.2 and have upgraded it through Leopard are in the minority. Most Mac users I know don't even know or care about upgrading the operating system. They upgrade when I say they ought to.
If Apple wants to or feels the need to make a sweeping change for the benefit of many or most, I'm on board with it. Nothing Apple does will make everyone happy.On the one hand, I also think there's an issue of semantics here. Your (or more directly, MY) processors will still be "supported" as they are now... indeed better than when I bought them with Panther. So PPC's are still "supported" in that sense, which runs counter to the "my computer is no longer supported" argument I've heard in this thread. What is meant is that your computer is no longer upgradable, operating-system-wise. This would be a problem if this upgrade was revolutionary, not evolutionary.
On the other hand, I don't think anyone in my camp can effectively say that Snow Leopard is 100% without new user benefits. As has been mentioned it comes with Quicktime X, Exchange support, OpenCL and others. But I don't think these "new user features" can be appropriately sold as "new user features" that warrant a paid upgrade cost. Which leads me to...
I have a gut feeling that this upgrade will either be $129 in cost OR will support PPC's... but not both at the same time (witness 10.1 as an example). Sure it might cost something, but $129 seems steep, even for Apple. I don't think it will happen.
That all depends on how far down the tweaks go.
If the API changes significantly it might make it a significant effort to compile applications that utilize the new tweaks for performance that will still work for a PPC machine. This would lead to applications that start using Snow Leopard performance tweaks to go to Intel only binaries and leave a lot of PPC users with only their older versions of the applications.
Of course since it was a Developer's conference I would assume that a drop of PPC support might have been reported to the developers since if there are issues with coding to make it compile universally, and they are intending the app to be Snow Leopard only, then the effort spent on doing the PPC work is money wasted.
Probably because they're still in the early stages of Snow Leopard and haven't re-compiled most of the Apps? They're probably still on system-level stuff. Only a guess, though.
In Apple's eyes, that's likely not a bad thing. It will force those developers to re-do their apps. Has to happen eventually. They'll have at least a year's warning now.
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I have mixed feelings as many here do. It does seem a bit early to drop it still but it was going to happen eventually. I was hoping for one more release but this being the developers preview doesn't necessairly mean it will be dropped in the final version.
I have mixed feelings as many here do. It does seem a bit early to drop it still but it was going to happen eventually. I was hoping for one more release but this being the developers preview doesn't necessairly mean it will be dropped in the final version.
i think that they will include two versions of snow leopard one for $89 for intel macs and $129 for powerpc machines makes sense not to piss off early adopters of the mac
while everyone else is venting, i might as well throw in my two cents too
If you read the press release for snow leopard, it doesn't add features- its supposed to re-lay the foundation for the operating system and make it leaner and faster than it currently is. We all know that currently, OS 10.5 is running for both PPC and INTEL CPU's, and while that will appease those G5 owners and others with older Macs, it's obviously a handicap for the mac OS to have to support two different CPU types.
So even though it ticks off all the PPC users, I think 10.6 will be a great improvement over 10.5 in stability and speed, and finalize the transistion from PPC to Intel only. And since this is the first seed, don't expect 10.6 to come out for at least another year, and between now and then, all those who really, really want 10.6 can save up for a new Intel Mac when 10.6 is released. Not to mention that by the time 10.6 comes out, it would be totally worth upgrading a PPC Mac to a Intel- they'll be running circles around your G5 =)
If you read the press release for snow leopard, it doesn't add features- its supposed to re-lay the foundation for the operating system and make it leaner and faster than it currently is. We all know that currently, OS 10.5 is running for both PPC and INTEL CPU's, and while that will appease those G5 owners and others with older Macs, it's obviously a handicap for the mac OS to have to support two different CPU types.
So even though it ticks off all the PPC users, I think 10.6 will be a great improvement over 10.5 in stability and speed, and finalize the transistion from PPC to Intel only. And since this is the first seed, don't expect 10.6 to come out for at least another year, and between now and then, all those who really, really want 10.6 can save up for a new Intel Mac when 10.6 is released. Not to mention that by the time 10.6 comes out, it would be totally worth upgrading a PPC Mac to a Intel- they'll be running circles around your G5 =)
1. Optimization is not Snow Leopard's sole feature. The primary features outlines are developer-centric new APIs. The tagline is faster and smaller. Even with all that, there are user-visible features to Snow Leopard, they just aren't the focus.
2. 10.1 was solely performance. There were no 10.0.x releases after 10.1 came out. Nyah.
3. The claim I was responding to was:
While there isn't a direct match for the 10.6 situation historically, every reasonably close match points to Apple not releasing Leopard point releases after 10.6 comes out. If 10.6 drops PPC support, it is an organizational cost-saving effort (which in turn allows them to concentrate on optimizing for Intel). Continuing 10.5.x support takes away all cost savings and removes the ability for Apple to concentrate on Intel. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that they will do so.
Again, this is all hypothetical, as Apple hasn't announced anything. If they do move forward with a non-PPC 10.6, though, I believe it is highly unlikely that PPC users will see more than one wrap-it-up point release of Leopard.
If people are using 10.4 with Classic, then they have no use for Leopard or its cousin Snow Leopard, do they? What's the problem?
Leopard wasn't the end of security updates for Tiger. Tiger wasn't the end of security updates for Panther. Granted they were MUCH more rare, but they were still there. Apple.com currently has support pages going back to OS9. And the fact that Apple knows many of its users CAN'T upgrade to Snow Leopard even if they wanted to, this leads me to believe that Apple will be more aggressive than they have been in the past in supporting the soon-to-be-"outdated" Papa Leopard.
No, that was an update for iTunes. Apple is perfectly happy to issue updates for 10.3 when it keeps iTunes money flowing, yet they no longer issue security updates for 10.3 at all.
Bumped up the minimum specs considerably?
Not that I even consider the ancient 3.11 to be part of this equation, but Win95 ran on any stinky old 486. Win98 was essentially Win95 with IE included so that's not even an issue. WinME was Win98 with dementia. Win2K was WinNT. WinXP was Win2K with a butt ugly skin. At no point during this period, which covered 386, 486, Pentium I, II, II, IV, Pentium M and Core 2, did I or anyone in my vicinity ever install a new Windows version and go "dang! This here machine can't handle this new fangled OS". Being able to install the OS was a given back then, the only thing that had people worried about system requirements were the latest games. Each version may have required a tad more RAM than the last, but video hardware requirements were virtually non-existent as Windows only used a fraction of those resources due to its sad old graphics engine.
If those versions represented one flight of stairs each, Vista was an elevator ride to the 52nd floor. OS install size jumped from 1 GB to 12 GB. Tons more graphics and fx, full use of video hardware, new RAM handling, SuperFetch... all very poorly optimized of course.
Because there are significant new APIs in Snow Leopard, which directly benefit developers (by design, obviously). New apps will only support Snow Leopard, which means they will only support Intel. From the developer's perspective, they need to choose between taking advantage of the speed optimizations inherent in the new APIs and selling to the wider PPC user base.
This only goes to show that we don't know that they are dropping PPC support. If Apple is dropping PPC and expects developers to utilize the new API why not tell them that the OS loses PPC support so that apps that are now possible due to performance enhancements don't waste time and money working to make sure PPC compatibility is there? You'd think that would be information that developers might want to know.
I would agree that this is an inevitable change since it's been a while (I think at least 2 years??) since the PowerPC proc was dropped from production. It's still a big change though and we all know how ppl are resistant to change.
It has only been about 18 months since the last G5s were sold by Apple. Brand new, not refurbs.
I could care less.
My iMac G5 2.1 ghz (2.5 GB of RAM) runs horrible with Leopard 10.5.3, with more spinning beach balls than a circus seal could handle.
Meanwhile my new Intel iMac (2.4 ghz) is a speed demon.
The G5 is going on Craigslist very soon and a replacement Intel will arrive shortly thereafter.
My iMac G5 2.1 ghz (2.5 GB of RAM) runs horrible with Leopard 10.5.3, with more spinning beach balls than a circus seal could handle.
Meanwhile my new Intel iMac (2.4 ghz) is a speed demon.
The G5 is going on Craigslist very soon and a replacement Intel will arrive shortly thereafter.