Mac OS X x86 uses TCPA

[Loke]

Mock Richard Stallman all you want, at least he´s got principles while the average Mac-zealot is a member of the biggest sheep herd Ive ever seen. Its the same "show" every time with you Mac-zealots. When Apple switched to Intel, it was very amusing to sit and read about the zealots talking to and eventually persuading themselves that Intel is much better than PowerPC after all. 1 day earlier PowerPC was the best thing since sliced bread. It had all the classical symptoms: Shock -> Denial -> Anger -> Sadness -> Acceptance -> Cheering.

A quick forum search reveals interesting discussions in the past, like SeaFox points out. And just about everyone expressed how delighted they were the Mac platform didnt have TCPA, and how MS customers were getting screwed bigtime etc. Now that TCPA has hit the Mac platform bigtime - in fact many times bigger than ANYWHERE in the computing technology scene up untill now - TCPA is wowed as a good thing, because it will protect your precious.

It has become painfully clear to me that the wast majority of you will believe just about anything Steve Jobs say, even when it involves stripping you of your privacy and rights. Its like you all are disbelievers of what is possible with this technology today, and you lull and comfort yourselves into believing corporations actually care about you. You seem to be in denial, still not able to comprehend just how genious and clever this move by Apple has been - from a corporate point of view.

The day we stop worrying over our privacy and rights, we have already lost it all. I ask you again: How do YOU know what a TPM module on a Mac can do and cant do, will do and wont do? Are you prepared to trust Apple and its associates in RIAA/MPAA, and let them dictate the behaviour of the TPM chip? Are you prepared to hand over the steering wheel to someone else, and close your eyes? Because that is the painfull reality you have to accept right now.

 

[broken_keyboard]

This is not some government trying to take away your rights. It's just content providers trying to copy protect their stuff. If you don't like it then don't watch their films.

They created the film, so they get to decide what other people do with it. You are fortunate to watch their movie, which you couldn't have created yourself. You're not doing them a favor.

 

[Loke]

This is not some government trying to take away your rights. It's just content providers trying to copy protect their stuff. If you don't like it then don't watch their films.

They created the film, so they get to decide what other people do with it. You are fortunate to watch their movie, which you couldn't have created yourself. You're not doing them a favor.

Hello, Dan Glickman!

Thank you for replying to my post. Gosh, how stupid I have been. I really thought the movie industry existed *because* of their customers, not despite them. But of course its the other way around! Ahhh I can see it clearly now, thank you! Im very fortunate to be allowed to spend my hard earned money buying your quality products after all, so its only fair you also get to decide how and where I can enjoy it. Thank you Dan Glickman, thank you for your enormous insight. This has really been priceless.

 

[broken_keyboard]

Hello, Dan Glickman!

I am not that guy, I just don't like it when people go around talking about their "right" to other people's work. Creating stuff is not easy, and anyone who gets off their butt and makes something has my respect.

 

[Applespider]

In some ways this all goes back to how anarchistic we want our world to be. If there's total anarchy, we have absolute civil liberties, no-one can tell us to do anything we don't want to do. As soon as you impose any kind of social order, you lose liberties as part of the social responsibility you have of living in a society. It starts with letting the head caveman know you are going hunting so they know to come after you if you get hurt when they will look after you but means you can no longer take off willy nilly to look for Bigfoot.

In modern society, we gave up the right to privacy outside our homes years ago. There is CCTV across many of our streets but for the most part, it's used to stop crimes and catch criminals. Despite the popularity of reality-TV, the operators really aren't that interested in Joe Public's life. People could have chosen to avoid those places with CCTV initially but they didn't since those places had less grafitti, more security etc. Having CCTV in your street is now a pluspoint when selling since it's seen as a security blanket. You give up your right to privacy walking down the street but society gains.

Now TCPA will erode our rights to privacy on our computers - and going back to what I said earlier. People will have the option to buy ones with TCPA or not; we'll see what the public choose to do. I do believe there is a difference between monitoring everything you do and checking that 'illegal' stuff can't run easily.

I do understand what the civil liberty watchdogs mean when they talk about eroding our rights so that one day we end up with none and I'd hate to live in a world like that. But there comes a point where the potential 'abuse of power' argument loses out to the 'common sense benefit to the majority' one. The Matrix was a movie - not a prophecy of the future!

 

[Loke]

In modern society, we gave up the right to privacy outside our homes years ago.

Now TCPA will erode our rights to privacy on our computers - and going back to what I said earlier. People will have the option to buy ones with TCPA or not; we'll see what the public choose to do. I do believe there is a difference between monitoring everything you do and checking that 'illegal' stuff can't run easily.

This post shows exactly how dangerous dealing with this issue can be, bacause your words can and will make perfect sense to most. But there is a major flaw in your logic, namely that you and I live in an open and free democracy where we elect the people we want to run and control our society. This means you and I can influence and be heard in the process of designing guidelines for our society.

This is something *very* different from accepting and allowing corporations running our lives. Today the very essence of democracy is in danger, due to corporation lobbying. IMO this has already gone way too far, and if we dont wake up now its too late. TCPA is just another example of corporate powerplay trying to control our lives. Our society should control corporations, not the other way around!

 

[Loke]

I am not that guy, I just don't like it when people go around talking about their "right" to other people's work.

While you´re at it, please enlighten me exactly where I expressed my "rights" to other peoples work. I cant wait...

 

[broken_keyboard]

While you´re at it, please enlighten me exactly where I expressed my "rights" to other peoples work. I cant wait...

You said "The day we stop worrying over our privacy and rights" - which implies you think you currently have some rights to the movies you will lose. But you don't.

The only rights here are the rights of movie companies to get together with computer companies and work out a way people can watch movies on computer without copying them.

 

[Loke]

You said "The day we stop worrying over our privacy and rights" - which implies you think you currently have some rights to the movies you will lose. But you don't.

Actually I do. If I buy a DVD movie, it is in my right to use the DVD in any way I see fit as long as I dont distribute illegal copies for profit. I can wipe my ass with it, cut it in half, copy it to my portable movie player, break it up and eat it together with my cereal, run over it (several times if Id like) with my car and...gosh...watch the movie on an unauthorized platform like GNU/Linux. This is called "Fair Use", and I believe the fair use term is even more fundamental in Europe than in the US. I am allowed - by law - to make backup copies of purchased DVDs and CDs. I am even allowed to make copies for family and friends, at least here in Norway. This has been possible since the birth of the first tape recorder, and has been going on for ages. The fact is we went through the exact same situation when the VHS and BetaMAX systems and the double deck tape recorders were introduced. The movie and music industry cried wolf like mad, and predicted its own death. We all know how that turned out.

I dont know if you are a troll, at least you sound like a troll to me, because if the RIAA had it their way there would be no such thing as iPods. They only want you to listen to THEIR CDs on THEIR approved equipment, and if you need one CD in the car and one at home - they´d really prefer it if they could by law make you buy two separate CDs.

Worrying about MY privacy and MY rights, is something completely different than claiming rights to other peoples work like you claim I did. But your right, this isnt about my privacy or my rights, its about corporate greed and TCPA is a means for extending it further. Why should I trust Apple and their TPM chip, when they do not trust me to not copy and distribute legally purchased media? Dont you see how absurd this is?!

 

[Applespider]

But there is a major flaw in your logic, namely that you and I live in an open and free democracy where we elect the people we want to run and control our society. This means you and I can influence and be heard in the process of designing guidelines for our society.

TCPA is just another example of corporate powerplay trying to control our lives. Our society should control corporations, not the other way around!

We do still have power over corporations - it's called boycotting products/companies where we don't agree with the company ethos and trying to hurt their bottom-line. Yes, it only works if enough people do it - but that's the same principle as regular democracy. And so long as we don't have monopoly situations, it should be easier to make it work. It's easier to switch the brand you buy than leave the country after all!

I do agree that the corporate lobbying of political parties is reaching ridiculous and dangerous levels particularly in the US. Clear rules over exactly how much they can give and under what conditions would be welcome - along with better public information by the media where the lobbying affects current policy or concerns

 

[Loke]

We do still have power over corporations - it's called boycotting products/companies where we don't agree with the company ethos and trying to hurt their bottom-line. Yes, it only works if enough people do it - but that's the same principle as regular democracy. And so long as we don't have monopoly situations, it should be easier to make it work. It's easier to switch the brand you buy than leave the country after all!

I do agree that the corporate lobbying of political parties is reaching ridiculous and dangerous levels particularly in the US. Clear rules over exactly how much they can give and under what conditions would be welcome - along with better public information by the media where the lobbying affects current policy or concerns

Great post. We agree then This was basically my answer a few posts back. The real hard part (apparantly), is making Mac-users understand why TPM in *every* Mac is dangerous. The next step is telling Apple you do not want such products, by boycotting their TPM-enabled products, sending email complains, telling friends, media etc. The only people who can make a difference here, is you guys. Others wont fight this battle for you.

 

[broken_keyboard]

Actually I do. If I buy a DVD movie, it is in my right to use the DVD in any way I see fit as long as I dont distribute illegal copies for profit.

Those things you listed are not rights, they are simply laws passed by your parliament. Laws that in fact breach the right of the creator to set the terms for the use of their creation. You should feel guilty about exercising those "rights" if you know the record companies don't really want you to have them.

Worrying about MY privacy and MY rights, is something completely different than claiming rights to other peoples work like you claim I did.

No, it is the same thing. The fact that you got those "rights" by making your parliament bully the music creators doesn't make what you are doing any less wrong.

Why should I trust Apple and their TPM chip, when they do not trust me to not copy and distribute legally purchased media? Dont you see how absurd this is?!

They are not asking for your trust. They make the computers so they can make them however they want. If you don't like it, buy a Linux box and watch all your movies in the Cinema.

 

[IJ Reilly]

I dont know if you are a troll, at least you sound like a troll to me, because if the RIAA had it their way there would be no such thing as iPods. They only want you to listen to THEIR CDs on THEIR approved equipment, and if you need one CD in the car and one at home - they´d really prefer it if they could by law make you buy two separate CDs.

Okay, now you've pinned my baloney meter (and it goes up to 11).

Of course this isn't true, and the evidence that it's not true can be found all around you. The CD standard wasn't designed with copy protection in mind, and is not even one bit proprietary. So you are called upon to provide evidence that if the RIAA or anybody "had their way" it would have been different. You are also called upon to provide evidence that "there would be no such thing as the iPod" if the RIAA had its way. Please tell us how the music industry, of which the RIAA and ASCAP are part, tried to prevent the iPod from happening, and how it would be possible for the iPod and the ITMS to exist if the industry didn't agree to it.

And please, don't respond with a long recitation of the failings of the music industry. I know all about that. Just support your assertions with facts, please.

 

[alex_ant]

Mock Richard Stallman all you want, at least he´s got principles while the average Mac-zealot is a member of the biggest sheep herd Ive ever seen. Its the same "show" every time with you Mac-zealots. When Apple switched to Intel, it was very amusing to sit and read about the zealots talking to and eventually persuading themselves that Intel is much better than PowerPC after all. 1 day earlier PowerPC was the best thing since sliced bread. It had all the classical symptoms: Shock -> Denial -> Anger -> Sadness -> Acceptance -> Cheering.

A quick forum search reveals interesting discussions in the past, like SeaFox points out. And just about everyone expressed how delighted they were the Mac platform didnt have TCPA, and how MS customers were getting screwed bigtime etc. Now that TCPA has hit the Mac platform bigtime - in fact many times bigger than ANYWHERE in the computing technology scene up untill now - TCPA is wowed as a good thing, because it will protect your precious.

It has become painfully clear to me that the wast majority of you will believe just about anything Steve Jobs say, even when it involves stripping you of your privacy and rights. Its like you all are disbelievers of what is possible with this technology today, and you lull and comfort yourselves into believing corporations actually care about you. You seem to be in denial, still not able to comprehend just how genious and clever this move by Apple has been - from a corporate point of view.

The day we stop worrying over our privacy and rights, we have already lost it all. I ask you again: How do YOU know what a TPM module on a Mac can do and cant do, will do and wont do? Are you prepared to trust Apple and its associates in RIAA/MPAA, and let them dictate the behaviour of the TPM chip? Are you prepared to hand over the steering wheel to someone else, and close your eyes? Because that is the painfull reality you have to accept right now.

I like how you ascribe a sheep-herd, zealot mentality to every single person who disagrees with your POV. If you take a look at my posts, bashing Apple and Apple products are basically the only thing I do around here, and I do it for the sake of balance. I think Intel sucks and I think Steve Jobs, while a brilliant businessman, is a huge jackass. I think balance is very important.

The problem is that you are, let's face it, an obsessed computer geek, living inside your own slashdot fantasy world where every battle, Loonix vs. Windows, IBM vs. SCO, DRM vs. rampant copyright infringement, is part of a monumental struggle of good against evil, light versus darkness, Luke vs. Darth Vader, or Picard vs. the Borg, to use a couple analogies you would understand. I mean, look at yourself. "Now that TCPA has hit the Mac platform bigtime - in fact many times bigger than ANYWHERE in the computing technology scene up untill now..." Nothing is yet known about TCPA on the Mac - how it will be implemented, what kind of restrictions it will put in place, how it will affect Mac users, or even IF it will be implemented at all! Yet you seem to have an inside scoop - you already know it will be "hitting the Mac bigtime," "stripping our privacy and our rights," etc. Given that you know what nobody else knows, the view from your high horse must be fantastic.

I think what you'll find here in real life is that Mac users generally don't like or dislike TCPA or DRM in general. They will look at it non-ideologically and evaluate it based upon what kinds of practical implications it will have on them... which I think is the only rational thing to do.

I ask you again: How do YOU know what a TPM module on a Mac can do and cant do, will do and wont do?

Good question, you might want to try to answer it yourself.

 

[alex_ant]

"If the RIAA had it their way there would be no such thing as iPods."



Well, if I had my way, all GNU/loonix hippies would be given mandatory haircuts and forced at gunpoint to bathe. Thankfully, I do not have it my way, and neither does any other one group or individual. We live in a society with balances and a carefully crafted system of laws that give us all rights while making an effort not to allow us to infringe upon others' rights (*cough* filesharing) and that's how it should be.

 

[gekko513]

I think this sounds like good news. Since Apple has much more control over the hardware in OS X systems they will be able to do the transition to TCPA a lot faster than Microsoft.

If Apple does introduce TCPA throughout the entire Mac lineup it will most likely mean that I as an Apple customer will have access to a lot more digital content sooner and almost certainly with an easier interface compared to the general Windows user.

 

[SeaFox]

They are not asking for your trust. They make the computers so they can make them however they want. If you don't like it, buy a Linux box and watch all your movies in the Cinema.

Being able to watch commercial DVD's in Linux requires software for decrypting the DVD, which does not exist in a legal form at this moment. So he is not able to watch his movies in Linux without breaking the law. This is where "DVD Jon" got his name.

If the format is changed again (for HD-DVD) he may find himself unable to watch the movies on his computer unless he buys one with TCPA hardware.

So now, how exactly does he have a choice in platform now?

 

[SeaFox]

If Apple does introduce TCPA throughout the entire Mac lineup it will most likely mean that I as an Apple customer will have access to a lot more digital content sooner and almost certainly with an easier interface compared to the general Windows user.

a) That would never happen. Micorsoft has 90%+ of the worlds computers, Content providers would be damn sure their content was available to that group before releasing it, even if it meant donating money to M$ so they could get the DRM out faster.

b) Given the choice between being able to buy movies online as a digital download, and knowing my computer really is under my control, I would take my own computer anyday.

 

[SeaFox]

Ouch, talk about "asking for it"

...if the RIAA had it their way there would be no such thing as iPods. They only want you to listen to THEIR CDs on THEIR approved equipment, and if you need one CD in the car and one at home - they´d really prefer it if they could by law make you buy two separate CDs.

Of course this isn't true, and the evidence that it's not true can be found all around you. The CD standard wasn't designed with copy protection in mind...

Because consumer CD burners didn't exist when CD's came out in the late 80's, there wasn't any way to make perfact copies of them. DUH.

Hey, if the RIAA isn't interested in curtailing my ability to make copies of CD's, why do I keep hearing about these CD's with DRM that prevent you from copying, ripping or otherwise reproducing them digitally, the ones some people have to fight to get stores to take back when they find the CD doesn't play on their older CD player or car stereo. I've got an Audio CD I can play on my discman (which has an optical output) but if I try to copy it to my minidisc player (which I'm supposed to be able to do, it's kinda the whole purpose of a portable audio player) it flashes "NO COPY" on the screen and wont record it, it doesn't do it with other CD's.

and is not even one bit proprietary. So you are called upon to provide evidence that if the RIAA or anybody "had their way" it would have been different. You are also called upon to provide evidence that "there would be no such thing as the iPod" if the RIAA had its way.

I suppose this website was put up just for the hell of it?
Yeah, the RIAA/MPAA has nothing to do with it.

 

[gekko513]

a) That would never happen. Micorsoft has 90%+ of the worlds computers, Content providers would be damn sure their content was available to that group before releasing it, even if it meant donating money to M$ so they could get the DRM out faster.

Why not? The content providers' only goal are to make money, and if they can sell it in a non-piratable way, they will sell it on whatever platform is ready to deliver that security.

 

[SeaFox]

I think you all need to stop worrying about what TCPA can do, and think more about what it actually will do. Apple isn't in a position that it can afford to piss very many people off, so I consider it pretty unlikely that Apple will abuse the technology.

I'm not worried about Apple so much as everyone else. Now that Mac's have TCPA on the motherboard, and it will be active for the OS to use, do you think Microsoft, ect are just going to ignore the fact there is a functioning TCPA portion of the processor when they write their software? Nope. They'll take advantage of it just like they will on the PC side.

 

[SeaFox]

Why not? The content providers' only goal are to make money, and if they can sell it in a non-piratable way, they will sell it on whatever platform is ready to deliver that security.

They would raise the ire of so large a portion of their consumers by only releasing it to a select few first. This is where product launches and marketting come into play. If it's not ready for the prime time platform, it's not ready for prime time.

You don't think it's just an odd quirk so often software come out for Wintel before Macintosh do you?

 

[SeaFox]

It's just content providers trying to copy protect their stuff. If you don't like it then don't watch their films.

A. For such campaign to work will require massive oganization and cooperation for the public. And that will never happen. Most of them don't know about any of this.

B. You underestimate the importance of mass consumer entertainment. When someone calls an outage of their cable-TV service an "emergency" because her kids are home from school, you begin to realize what a sorry state the country is in. "Don't watch their films" is not a practical option, I guess in a small part because of the monopoly media conglomerates hold on our recreation.

C. Consumer also don't know who to blame for these issues half the time. They can't stream a movie from one room to another and they think it's because it isn't technologically possible or because they bought a lousy product that just can't do it. It doesn't occur to them the functionality has actually been taken away from them by the MPAA/RIAA's wishes.

 

[Loke]

I think SeaFox provided excellent documentation of my previous claims, so thank you for saving me the time writing about it.

Nothing is yet known about TCPA on the Mac - how it will be implemented, what kind of restrictions it will put in place, how it will affect Mac users, or even IF it will be implemented at all! Yet you seem to have an inside scoop - you already know it will be "hitting the Mac bigtime," "stripping our privacy and our rights," etc. Given that you know what nobody else knows, the view from your high horse must be fantastic.

There is alot of known things about TCPA on the Mac plattform. Its not my fault if you choose to ignore the facts presented to you. All you have to do is go to OSx86 and read about how TCPA is entangled into the Apple GUI on the developer Macs.

Apple themselves have stated time after time, that OSX will *only* run on Mac hardware. And people have since the Intel announcement been wondering how Apple would pull this off. With the developer Macs you got the answer. They use a TPM chip, which some have suspected from the very beginning. And please, save me the crap about how the developer Macs are not representative for the shipping Intel Macs. We all know this is wishful thinking.

Good question, you might want to try to answer it yourself.

I have already answered this many times already. You will never know what a TPM chip on a closed source plattform is capable of. Argue all you want, but you cannot deny the fact that using a TCPA-plattform will require you to trust the plattform owner with your steering wheel.

 

[gekko513]

I have already answered this many times already. You will never know what a TPM chip on a closed source plattform is capable of. Argue all you want, but you cannot deny the fact that using a TCPA-plattform will require you to trust the plattform owner with your steering wheel.

Meh ... it's not that big a deal. I already trust my car maker with my steering wheel (servo). I trust my cable company with their thing-a-magic TV and Internet receiver. And I trust my government to keep me resonably safe from crime and so on and so forth.