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Onizuka said:
No corporation is going to tell me what I can and cannot do with the data I have or want to. If I want five girls going at it either in picture or movie format on all of my devices at home, then I should be able to do that. If I wanna copy CD's and records I bought with MY money, then I will use them and distribute them among my home as I please.

You can't do any of this with a TCPA enabled PC if it doesn't want you to. You can click "Rip" or "Burn" or even "Play" and the computer will just go "I'm sorry, Dave. I can't let you do that." The TCPA hardware is built into your CPU, so you can't remove it, you could swap out the processor (assuming it's not soldered onto the motherboard) but whoops! The only processors that fit that socket also have TCPA in them.

You're really not seeing what's happening here are you?
 
broken_keyboard said:
Those things you listed are not rights, they are simply laws passed by your parliament.

Okay, stop right there.

In Political Philosophy there is an important distinction between whether a) we are all free to do whatever we like (except where laws exist to stop us doing certain things, such as socially unacceptable acts like theft or murder) or b) we are not free to do anything, and we require permission from the state to do something (such as being permitted to have sex or raise a family, for example).

Norway (unless I am very much mistaken) does not have any specific laws legitimising copying of DVDs and the like; there is simply an absence of a law prohibiting this.

In your example, you are assuming that no one has any rights, that these have to be specifically granted. This places us firmly in Category B of my two options. Now, there is nothing inherently wrong with that position, you just have to understand the logical conclusion of your argument.

In terms of Trusted Computing, the logical conclusion is that no one would be free to do as they please with their computer hardware / software. You have to be specifically authorised to perform each and every action.

So the question is: do you want to have to ask permission every time you want to do something, or would you prefer to know just what you can't do, and avoid doing the things that are on that list?
 
What I'm sick of are the Stallmanites, the type that literally LIVE in front of a computer monitor, have no idea what it's like NOT to live that way, and are exhausting to argue with because they have literally all day to concoct elaborate multi-page replies (being too hairy and stinky to get hired by any reasonable employer, after all). Instead of using their considerable intellectual talents to be productive in society, or suggest alternative PRAGMATIC AND WORKABLE SOLUTIONS TO TCPA, they spend the majority of their time venting the frustration stemming from being antisocial outcasts and still being virgins at age 31. As long as THEY KNOW they are superior to the vast throngs of ignorant, non-computer-geek, TCPA-unaware idiots like us, they can avoid or at least delay their eventual emotional collapse.

"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." -- Albert Einstein
 
IJ Reilly said:
But you have provided absolutely no evidence to back up this argument.
I showed you several quotes and refered to URLs from RIAAs homepage where they time after time tried to control how the CD standard should evolve in their best interest - despite not owning the rights to the format, how the mp3 players should evolve in their best interest - despite not producing any themselves, how the laws of your country should evolve in their best interest etc. If this is not proof, I dont know what is.

You have now added to this the absurd proposition that the RIAA only became important during the CD era. This is ridiculous. The RIAA and ASCAP were very much in existence and quite active long before the 1980s. In fact during the 1970s a neighbor of mine was a detective for ASCAP. His job was to go around to record stores looking for bootleg record albums.

If only you would quote me correctly, this discussion would be much easier. I said the RIAA we know today. There is a big difference. Its just a nice coincidence for you to get hung up on. I actually pictured myself defending this sentence from your misquoting, but I went ahead anyway thinking you saw past this. Apparantly, I was wrong. There is no point in providing you with any more proof, because you will just cover your ears and sing tralala no matter what. You will continue misquoting and misinterpret on purpose, just to prove whatever point you are trying to prove.

Why dont you instead tell me why you should accept using a TCPA-enabled plattform? Pardon me for saying so, but there seems to be something fundamentally wrong with America after the 9/11 incident, as it seems most are willing to sacrifice every bit of freedom theyve got in order to fight "terrorism". You may not approve or even like Michael Moore or Alex Jones, I find them to be pretty excentric at times too - but you should at least pay attention to what they have been trying to tell you for the past 5 years. No pun intended.
 
Are these the people you want to listen to seriously about 'digital rights'?
 

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Starfury said:
Okay, stop right there.

In Political Philosophy there is an important distinction between whether a) we are all free to do whatever we like (except where laws exist to stop us doing certain things, such as socially unacceptable acts like theft or murder) or b) we are not free to do anything, and we require permission from the state to do something (such as being permitted to have sex or raise a family, for example).

Norway (unless I am very much mistaken) does not have any specific laws legitimising copying of DVDs and the like; there is simply an absence of a law prohibiting this.

In your example, you are assuming that no one has any rights, that these have to be specifically granted. This places us firmly in Category B of my two options. Now, there is nothing inherently wrong with that position, you just have to understand the logical conclusion of your argument.

In terms of Trusted Computing, the logical conclusion is that no one would be free to do as they please with their computer hardware / software. You have to be specifically authorised to perform each and every action.

So the question is: do you want to have to ask permission every time you want to do something, or would you prefer to know just what you can't do, and avoid doing the things that are on that list?

This is by far the most intelligent post so far in this thread.
 
TCPA *IS* scary

So what is a VIABLE, WORKABLE alternative that will protect YOUR fair-use rights while protecting content producers' rights not to have their stuff ripped off by millions of people?

Or are we just going to declare jihad against all the governments and corporations of the western world, and fight them by installing modchips and promising we won't spend any of the money we make working at Taco Bell on their DVDs?
 
Starfury said:
Norway (unless I am very much mistaken) does not have any specific laws legitimising copying of DVDs and the like; there is simply an absence of a law prohibiting this.

In your example, you are assuming that no one has any rights, that these have to be specifically granted. This places us firmly in Category B of my two options. Now, there is nothing inherently wrong with that position, you just have to understand the logical conclusion of your argument.

Actually, he's wrong on that, too. In the U.S., the Betamax case ruling clarified that consumers in fact DO have the right to reproduce the works for their own personal use. He just seems to think that these are rules that can be changed whenever the RIAA/MPAA wants to during a shift in technology's role in entertainment.
 
alex_ant said:
So what is a VIABLE, WORKABLE alternative that will protect YOUR fair-use rights while protecting content producers' rights not to have their stuff ripped off by millions of people?

That is a good question. But I will point out that studies have shown piracy actually does not effect the conglomerates bottom-line as much as they would have you believe, and may in fact cause people to buy MORE music and movies.

From what I see, even with the current "level" of piracy, nobody working for BMG is getting past due notices on their multimillion dollar mansion's income tax bills, none of them are going to the Salvation Army Pantry to get food, and I haven't seen any of them driving Geo's or twelve year old Toyota's to work. Is there anything that would change about their lives if piracy were not happening (except their bank balance increasing by 15% or so?).

No. (Although it would be one less reason to add stuff to computers that would allow people to spy on what you're doing ;) )

Or are we just going to declare jihad against all the governments and corporations of the western world, and fight them by installing modchips and promising we won't spend any of the money we make working at Taco Bell on their DVDs?

This may sound a bit dramatic, but it is said that tryanical forces inevitably fail as they try to increase control over their subjects. The tighter the iron fist closes in, the more things start to squeez out of grasp.
 
Holy crap there are some conspiracy theorists out there.


Apple is in absolutley no posititon to use TPCA for anything other than limiting what computer their OS is installed on, which essentially they've been doing all along by not allowing Mac clones and having tight control over Mac hardware. If they used TPCA for anything bad, word would get out quickly, sales would go down and Apple would become a thing of the past. If Apple even ends up using TPCA in the future, I bet it will be a crippled chip only capable of making sure OSX is only installed on Macs. And I doubt they'd even use TPCA at all, right now its probably a temporary solution for the dev boxes (Why spend all your time working on DRM when there's a good alternative already out there that will work for the time being?). Apple is an innovative company, and I bet they have something up their sleeve that isn't as scary as TPCA to stop OSX from being installed on other PCs.


And even if Apple does use full-blown TPCA, it will be cracked. Every copy protection or DRM system ever developed was quickly cracked. Whether it was region protection on a DVD player, copy protection on consoles, copy protection on CDs or DVD encryption, it's been cracked. Once TPCA gets in the hands of the consumers, it gets in the hands of the hackers, and they're good. Real good.
 
SeaFox said:
The tighter the iron fist closes in, the more things start to squeez out of grasp.

Or as we "good against evil, light versus darkness, Luke vs. Darth Vader" Star Wars Stallmanits say: The tighter you grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers *Obligatory Darth Vader breathing effect*

Hope I didnt infringe on George Lucas copyright now :confused:
 
Too little info here to get all worked up about. Ahem* loke * I know you all enjoy a thinly veiled political disussion, but does anybody here really know of any intention for this technology by Apple other than OS lockdown? Apple has yet to do me wrong personally, and if they do, I will say gooodbye.

I think equating this with the Bush administration and the patriot act is a bit much, eh? Steve and George couldn't be more opposite. If you told me the current government was putting these things in, well then I'd be worried.
 
yg17 said:
Apple is in absolutley no posititon to use TPCA for anything other than limiting what computer their OS is installed on

Of course they are. They are the only company who have implemented a succesful music download service serving over 500 million songs. Im willing to bet good money that the MPAA had Apple as the first name on their list when movie dowload services were planned.

Anyway, it seems more and more of you think this is something which will unfold over night when Intel Macs arive. The people pushing TCPA is not stupid. They know customers dont want it. So little by little they push it, making customers grow more and more customed to the idea. Ironically, it seems like Apple will have a field day pushing this technology onto its customers.
 
alex_ant said:
What I'm sick of are the Stallmanites, the type that literally LIVE in front of a computer monitor, have no idea what it's like NOT to live that way, and are exhausting to argue with because they have literally all day to concoct elaborate multi-page replies (being too hairy and stinky to get hired by any reasonable employer, after all)...
*YAWN* Does anyone else get tired of these stereotyped views of computer geeks? And this coming one page after a complaint about name calling...

I've actully been writing many of these replies while AT work.

Also, "exhausting to argue with because they have literally all day to concoct elaborate multi-page replies"?

Well, darn. They should apologize for writing replies that involve research and thinking. We should all stoop to the level of those who don't have time to produce reasoning for their views, or respect for legal precedent.

"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." -- Albert Einstein
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence." -- Albert Einstein

(note: not talking about myself when I posted that quote)
 
decksnap said:
does anybody here really know of any intention for this technology by Apple other than OS lockdown?

Apple can limit their use of it to making sure you're using a real Mac, but you're ignoring everyone else. Are all the apps you use made by Apple? Anyone who has code running on the processor will be able to use the TCPA's technology, unless Apple locks them out with the OS.

Apple has yet to do me wrong personally, and if they do, I will say gooodbye.

That's right! If Apple tries to get you with the TCPA, you can leave and go to Windows instead!
Oh wait... :D

If you told me the current government was putting these things in, well then I'd be worried.

You don't think they have anything to do with it? What better way to fight "TEH TERRORISTS" than to know what they're doing with their PC's?

TCPA is about a lot more than DRM for media, part of it is about preventing viruses and malware in fact. Unfortunately, this discussion has gotten skewed into a copyright/fair use arguement.
 
IJ Reilly said:
The music industry is facing declining recorded music sales and declining live concert ticket sales. In this environment they can dream anything they like, but they aren't going to get it.

So what they have done is get it legislated - check out the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (DMCA). Scary stuff. Now they want more and have legislators in their pockets to get it for them.
 
alex_ant said:
Are these the people you want to listen to seriously about 'digital rights'?

Huh?!? What is the point of showing a photo and asking a question like that? Please don't base your opinion or decision on looks alone. Same for your second posting of the photo. Grow up.
 
alex_ant said:
So what is a VIABLE, WORKABLE alternative that will protect YOUR fair-use rights while protecting content producers' rights not to have their stuff ripped off by millions of people?

Or are we just going to declare jihad against all the governments and corporations of the western world, and fight them by installing modchips and promising we won't spend any of the money we make working at Taco Bell on their DVDs?

I believe in humans, and I believe that humans act the best way they know at all times. I dont think the reason for file sharing is because people are cheap or whatever. I think its because its convenient, and the media producers failed to provide convenient solutions when they had the chance. This essentially created the situation we have today, and I blame the media producers 100% for this while they blame the "pirates".

To be honest, Im waiting for the first major label or movie company who will step up to the plate and freely declare that they do not endore nor use copy control mechanisms on their CDs and DVDs.

This will surely create enormous positive PR, and I do not think they will suffer the losses they try to justify in the media these days. People are not dumb - of course they will support the artists they like to hear, and the movies they like to see. There is only a minority who will pirate everything, but these would not be buying products anyway if pirating wasnt an alternative. Ergo the loss they talk about is non-existant.

I have never understood the attitude where they need to criminalize every customer they have and bully them around with unconvenient technical barriers in their products. Perhaps its about time the media producers take a good look at themselves, before blaming the "pirates".
 
SeaFox said:
*YAWN* Does anyone else get tired of these stereotyped views of computer geeks? And this coming one page after a complaint about name calling...

Don't be silly.


Besides, all this TCPA stuff is just a stopgap until 2k16 when all your computers are controlled remotely by Kool-aid powered nano-gnats.
 
SeaFox said:
Well, as someone else here keeps saying, they are the creators, so they can set the term of usage however they wish (supposedly). When the vast majority of music, film, ect comes from these people, not playing by their rules usually means doing without those things completely.

Ah, but they aren't really! The "industry" is just that -- the industry. They don't create anything. They market and distribute stuff created by others. The artists, AKA the talent, can now reach their audience directly if they so desire, leaving "the industry" out of the loop entirely. More and more, they are doing precisely that, and this is why you're seeing the earth steadily falling away from under the industry. Like dinosaur behemoths, they're only dimly aware of their imminent demise.
 
Loke said:
I showed you several quotes and refered to URLs from RIAAs homepage where they time after time tried to control how the CD standard should evolve in their best interest - despite not owning the rights to the format, how the mp3 players should evolve in their best interest - despite not producing any themselves, how the laws of your country should evolve in their best interest etc. If this is not proof, I dont know what is.

Then you don't know what is. The links you provided are to a rant site making unsubstantiated claims about a law that hasn't even passed and to an article which (if read carefully) indicates that the rant site is in fact a rant site making unsubstantiated claims. Nice proof.

Loke said:
If only you would quote me correctly, this discussion would be much easier. I said the RIAA we know today. There is a big difference. Its just a nice coincidence for you to get hung up on. I actually pictured myself defending this sentence from your misquoting, but I went ahead anyway thinking you saw past this. Apparantly, I was wrong. There is no point in providing you with any more proof, because you will just cover your ears and sing tralala no matter what. You will continue misquoting and misinterpret on purpose, just to prove whatever point you are trying to prove.

I see, quoting you directly isn't quoting you correctly. Got it.

Loke said:
Irrelevant political rant snipped.
 
pubwvj said:
So what they have done is get it legislated - check out the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (DMCA). Scary stuff. Now they want more and have legislators in their pockets to get it for them.

I agree, the DCMA sucks -- it's the pure product of corporate greed processed through politics. The point is, they're bailing into a rising tide. I have some confidence that the tighter the industrialist types try to turn the thumbscrews on creative content, the more the artists will bypass the corporations entirely, and take their art directly to their audiences.
 
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