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For me, I'm not really sold on USB 3. What I care about are the following:

Enough PCIe slots (and lanes!) to support two 4870s or newer solution (in terms of bandwidth and the double-wide size), a RAID controller, and two free slots (for eSATA or whatever else I think I need). The number of slots isn't the only issue, it's the available lanes in those slots. I haven't really done my homework yet on how many lanes each PCIe slot has on the 2009 MPs. If anyone has that kind of info, I'd love to hear it.

2 - An equivalent of an 8-core xeon 55xx (or better) solution.

3 - Any costs savings on RAM or Hard Drives (since the market prices have dropped). That is, unless it's something new.

As you can see, the current xeon 55xx MPs would work for me (except for a second 4870 I believe). But the Bang/Buck ratio is not as good as it may have been when they came out. By the numbers, I just want to be in the same area of Bang/Buck as last year. Which means, I guess, I wait it out.

Cheers!
 
For me, I'm not really sold on USB 3. What I care about are the following:

Enough PCIe slots (and lanes!) to support two 4870s or newer solution (in terms of bandwidth and the double-wide size), a RAID controller, and two free slots (for eSATA or whatever else I think I need). The number of slots isn't the only issue, it's the available lanes in those slots. I haven't really done my homework yet on how many lanes each PCIe slot has on the 2009 MPs. If anyone has that kind of info, I'd love to hear it.

The 2009 Mac Pro has 2x16 slots (for graphics) and 2x4 slots (RAID/etc).

There's plenty of PCIe lanes... enough to do what you want. In fact, the only issue with running dual 4870's is not the slots, but the power (for which there are workarounds).

The number of lanes is limited not by Apple but by what Intel provides in the included chipset. It's the same as any other X58 board that doesn't add additional PCIe switching.
 
LightPeak may well change the CONFIGURATION of most desktop / workstations. That would not be an abandonment of the "pro" market but simply applying new technology (LightPeak) to the pro market.
If it were applied to a workstation, you'd be correct. But keep in mind, one of the aspects of a workstation is the expandability (PCIe slots and separate drive and graphics cards which are user upgradable/replacable).

An AIO (iMac in Apple's case), isn't the same. No slots, the graphics are integrated onto the board, and it's not meant to be accessed internally by the user. Now adding LightPeak can allow for a faster interface (as an AIO's expansion is via external devices), but even that's limited compared to PCIe (bandwidth, as PCIe gen 2.0 is capable of 500MB/s per lane, so a 16x slot is capable of up to 8GB/s, as LP is 10Gb/s = 1.25GB/s). That's quite a difference, and may matter in the workstation environment, especially for graphics.

As LP matures, it will get faster (theoretical limit claimed is 100Gb/s), but it won't release at that speed, and will be increased incrementally over time.

As to Intel's roadmap & Xeons - there are going to be low / medium / high end cpu performers. You may be able to wedge a high performing cpu into an iMac like case - but it would still be a high end pro computer - thus the market was not abandoned - just a very different configuration.
Traditionally, workstations use Xeon parts, though I have seen high end desktops substituted for SP models for cost reasons (and no need of ECC RAM).

These two markets are merging though, based on Intel's road maps. And I don't actually forsee problems with this for the most part. Perhaps a few exceptions, where ECC memory is truly needed, but it's not the majority of systems (there's been no choice in the past, as the Xeon line's been designed to work with ECC; standard memory of the same type, wasn't an option). That's changed now. You can get a Nehalem or Gulftown equiped system with standard or ECC memory (UDIMM or RDIMM).

So technically, it's possible to continue on with a tower system (and what other vendors will end up doing).

But Apple doesn't have the sales volume of other vendors in the enterprise market (workstation and servers), which will cause them to look at it from a financial POV (they're a business intent on making money afterall...). ;)

Now keep in mind the fact Apple likes AIO systems (MP's and XServes are the bastard children of Apple, as they don't get the attention they once did). Also take into account the recent bugs in the MP line (not completely solved in the case of the audio issues, and the firmware limitations aren't ever going to be fixed - namely the memory frequency is fixed to 1066, even when CPU's that can run 1333 are used).

They can also save money by moving the worstation users to LP equiped iMacs, as it cuts the R&D spent on MP's and XServes alltogether, and by doing so, increases the sales volume of the iMac. That makes the production cost that much lower, and the margins higher as a result.

And Apple loves high margins. :eek: :p

Also, the pro market will have monitor demands that will not likely be satisfied through a dedicated iMac screen.
I absolutely agree. But it already has the ability to use a separate monitor, and Apple sees this as a compromise for such users (current models). Then with LP, it could be possible to run a multiple monitor configuration as well (built-in screen, second off of the back of the iMac, and from an LP equiped graphics card for example).

There would be bandwidth issues with LP, but it might be possible to include multiple LP ports and team them as you can do with NIC ports. I'd have to go back and look, as I can't recall if this ability has been designed into the specification or not.

I just don't see an abandonment of the pro market. Apple is both creating new markets and competing very profitably in existing markets that they choose.
Ultimately, I do NOT see an LP equiped iMac as a true replacement (mainly due to the bandwidth difference between LP and PCIe slots /= true replacement for PCIe's expandability, even forgetting the mess of external devices and cables). But only that Apple might see it as a potential replacement product, particularly for their own needs for in-house software development.

What I'm seeing, is a focus shift from the workstation users that kept them alive since ~'97 to a portable and device oriented company. That's where the real money is, and thier published sales data and recent product releases support this.

Are there options for them to stay in the professional worktation market?
Yes. "But will they?" is the real question. It has to be profitable, and it's not generating the profits that the device segment does.

Wasn't light peak first demonstrated on a prototype Mac Pro of some sort? Apple has been behind the push for light peak from the start and some rumor mills have light peak coming out this fall. Is it possible the 2010 Mac Pro update is being held back so it can incorporate the new technology as well as be a part of its official launch?
What was shown by Intel publicly was. Now whether or not OS X was the first OS they ever tested it under, I don't know.

Parts are supposed to begin to release to the supply chain Q4 2010 (assuming no delays). So it won't be until 2011 before we see any systems with it (even without any delays).

The history isn't so clear, but the consortiium that developed LP doesn't include Apple. All the work has been done by Intel and the other partners (see Wiki if you're interested as a starting point). So there's some question as to the extent of Apple's actual involvement.

...you don't want to waste a PCIe slot for it?
That's a good enough reason for some, as 4 slots can be a limiting factor for some. More so, as there's no configuration utility as there was in the '06 - '07 models that could assist with specific situations.
 
I have a Dual 2.3 GHz PPC G5 and want to move up to the Intel world. Just priced out a dual 2.26 GHz with some extras. The pre tax price was $5,266 Cdn and $4,266 US - a 25% premium at a time when the dollars are almost at par.

Does anyone know when Apple Canada will adjust its price list to reflect the currency rates? If I bought a US unit, what risks would occur regarding warranty work, etc?

Tom

There was a reasonably large price disparity between the most recent Macbook Pros in the US vs Canada as well, but when they released the new ones, the price difference is much closer ($50 difference on the regular models, didn't check BTOs). I am hoping the same thing happens when the MPs are released.
 
That's a good enough reason for some, as 4 slots can be a limiting factor for some.

The greater limitation is the lack of Molex-based power for the GPUs the Mac Pro is supposed to be able to utilize. Right now I could only use one decent card in conjunction with 3 GT 120s, which seems pointless for any other purpose other than display farming.
 
I'm curious about the amazing PCs you can buy for so much less than a Mac. I went over to good old Dell, configured a Precision workstation to almost exact specs as the current 8 core MP, and, well, the price was exactly the same as what Amazon is selling the 8 core MP for, $3100. Hmm...

So, I kept everything the same as the current 8 core MP but added dual 6 cores at 3.33 GHz. You can have yours for $7300. Now if we toss in a hefty 12 GB DIMMs, a fast GPU with 1 GB, a 1 TB HDD, and we are now looking at $8700. Ouch!

Please tell me where to buy the screaming fast workstations for $1500. I must have missed those at Wal-Mart.

I know we all want the latest and greatest, but I can't help but think that the 2010 MP's are going to cost MORE than the current ones, well. 6 cores are gonna cost us a bundle.

I'm thinking that an 8 core MP at Amazon for $3100 sounds pretty good. Right now. I'm guessing the somewhat better 8 core MP that will be out in a month or two is gonna cost us, and the fast 12 core MP is gonna have a stratospheric price tag.
 
The greater limitation is the lack of Molex-based power for the GPUs the Mac Pro is supposed to be able to utilize. Right now I could only use one decent card in conjunction with 3 GT 120s, which seems pointless for any other purpose other than display farming.
I was keeping it confined to USB 3.0. But it's another valid complaint for some.

I'm curious about the amazing PCs you can buy for so much less than a Mac. I went over to good old Dell, configured a Precision workstation to almost exact specs as the current 8 core MP, and, well, the price was exactly the same as what Amazon is selling the 8 core MP for, $3100. Hmm...
The $1500 figures are for SP systems, not DP units. BTW, if you want better pricing than what's online, pick up the phone (i.e. get a phone quote on a T3500 with the closest specs possible to the base '09 MP Quad system). You get lower quotes that way vs. the online configuration tool. HP's the same way last I priced out their wares (enterprise systems, not sure on the consumer models, as there's less margin in them).

Sun has some nice SP and DP systems as well (Intel CPU's), but quotes are either email or by phone.
 
tmacmo, or you can go to any major retailer like frys, pick out the best quality components you can buy (better than any dell or apple etc.) and have an incredible system up and running in an hour. It's easy as cake. 12gb's are not hefty.
 
I'm curious about the amazing PCs you can buy for so much less than a Mac. I went over to good old Dell, configured a Precision workstation to almost exact specs as the current 8 core MP, and, well, the price was exactly the same as what Amazon is selling the 8 core MP for, $3100. Hmm...

So, I kept everything the same as the current 8 core MP but added dual 6 cores at 3.33 GHz. You can have yours for $7300. Now if we toss in a hefty 12 GB DIMMs, a fast GPU with 1 GB, a 1 TB HDD, and we are now looking at $8700. Ouch!

Please tell me where to buy the screaming fast workstations for $1500. I must have missed those at Wal-Mart.

I know we all want the latest and greatest, but I can't help but think that the 2010 MP's are going to cost MORE than the current ones, well. 6 cores are gonna cost us a bundle.

I'm thinking that an 8 core MP at Amazon for $3100 sounds pretty good. Right now. I'm guessing the somewhat better 8 core MP that will be out in a month or two is gonna cost us, and the fast 12 core MP is gonna have a stratospheric price tag.

You are certainly right here, but you can save somewhat significantly is you buy the same parts and build it yourself. (Been there, done that). The main difference is that you have so many options and you don't have to wait for an announcement that seemingly never comes. That said, I'm still waiting along with most everyone else here. I expect that whenever it does arrive it will be a nice system albeit most likely not cutting edge when it comes to usb 3 etc, but still a nice upgrade. One thing I have learned is that if 3rd party vendor ram is available at launch, you are way better off going that route.
 
I was keeping it confined to USB 3.0. But it's another valid complaint for some.


The $1500 figures are for SP systems, not DP units. BTW, if you want better pricing than what's online, pick up the phone (i.e. get a phone quote on a T3500 with the closest specs possible to the base '09 MP Quad system). You get lower quotes that way vs. the online configuration tool. HP's the same way last I priced out their wares (enterprise systems, not sure on the consumer models, as there's less margin in them).

Sun has some nice SP and DP systems as well (Intel CPU's), but quotes are either email or by phone.

This is the same with Apple. Businesses do not pay MSRP. At least mine doesn't. ;)
 
I'm curious about the amazing PCs you can buy for so much less than a Mac. I went over to good old Dell, configured a Precision workstation to almost exact specs as the current 8 core MP, and, well, the price was exactly the same as what Amazon is selling the 8 core MP for, $3100. Hmm...

So, I kept everything the same as the current 8 core MP but added dual 6 cores at 3.33 GHz. You can have yours for $7300. Now if we toss in a hefty 12 GB DIMMs, a fast GPU with 1 GB, a 1 TB HDD, and we are now looking at $8700. Ouch!

Please tell me where to buy the screaming fast workstations for $1500. I must have missed those at Wal-Mart.

I know we all want the latest and greatest, but I can't help but think that the 2010 MP's are going to cost MORE than the current ones, well. 6 cores are gonna cost us a bundle.

I'm thinking that an 8 core MP at Amazon for $3100 sounds pretty good. Right now. I'm guessing the somewhat better 8 core MP that will be out in a month or two is gonna cost us, and the fast 12 core MP is gonna have a stratospheric price tag.

Yes, but you configured dual processor machines. The dual Mac Pros are not the real problem. It's the single processor units, there is no real benefit of the Xeon chips in these and any tower with an i7 in it will be equally fast or faster than a single processor Mac Pro, and come with more ram, hd space and a better graphic card for much less than a single Mac Pro.

We are waiting for a new graphic design workstation at work, budget is around 3000,-, we don't need dual Xeons, already have a 30" ACD, we need plenty of ram & hd space and expansion since the machine should last 5 years. Oh, and we don't want the iMacs crappy mirror screen. No need for a 27" e-mail monitor.
 
chaosbunny - would you expand on why you say there is no real benefit to the SP Xeon chip in the Mac Pro ?

Because it's pretty much identical to an i7 920. Different in name only. And you can run ECC memory on the board but...there really isn't an advantage to that.
 
chaosbunny - would you expand on why you say there is no real benefit to the SP Xeon chip in the Mac Pro ?

Because the reason for Xeons in Mac Pro is because only Xeon can be used in dual CPU computers. When it comes to the single cpu mac pro, a Xeon will only have the ECC-feature as advantage over a normal desktop CPU. For that only, it does not justify the much higher price.
 
Because the reason for Xeons in Mac Pro is because only Xeon can be used in dual CPU computers. When it comes to the single cpu mac pro, a Xeon will only have the ECC-feature as advantage over a normal desktop CPU. For that only, it does not justify the much higher price.

You are correct, except the single socket Xeon's are typically priced identically to their non-Xeon counterparts making it irrelevant which part they use.
 
T&M / Cindori / VR - thanks for that explanation. Now the critical question for me.

To what extent does iWeb / Aperture / PhotoShop CS5 / and probably FCP (or some equivalent HD video editing software) take advantage of 8 or 12 cores (or more)? BTW - most of my HD video is in the 2 minute range per clip.

I understand the answers will probably vary by software :)

Thanks in advance...
 
You are correct, except the single socket Xeon's are typically priced identically to their non-Xeon counterparts making it irrelevant which part they use.
For quantity pricing for vendors, you're correct. An individual trying to DIY a system however, not so much. :( They're not as common, so the retail prices tend to be more than their desktop conterparts.

Greed... err... Supply and Demand economics at work. :eek: :p
 
You are correct, except the single socket Xeon's are typically priced identically to their non-Xeon counterparts making it irrelevant which part they use.

That's the whole point I was trying to make – you can get a 2,8 ghz i7 tower for around 1000 Euro, 2,6 ghz Mac Pro starts at 2300. And that i7 tower will have more ram, hd space and a better graphic card than the base Mac Pro. I'm more than willing to pay a premium for OS X and Apples hardware design, but that's a bit too much.


T&M / Cindori / VR - thanks for that explanation. Now the critical question for me.

To what extent does iWeb / Aperture / PhotoShop CS5 / and probably FCP (or some equivalent HD video editing software) take advantage of 8 or 12 cores (or more)? BTW - most of my HD video is in the 2 minute range per clip.

I understand the answers will probably vary by software :)

Thanks in advance...

Like you said, depends on the software. Adobe CS4 for example won't benefit from more cores, this may change with CS5 but as far as I know a higher clocked 4-Core machine won't be slower than a lower clocked 8-Core machine in CS5. (I only use design standard, so I can only speak for InDesign, Illustrator and Photoshop).

iWeb? An old G4 is fine for that.

Video editing and 3D modelling/animation are the only things where more cores really mean very much.
 
T&M / Cindori / VR - thanks for that explanation. Now the critical question for me.

To what extent does iWeb / Aperture / PhotoShop CS5 / and probably FCP (or some equivalent HD video editing software) take advantage of 8 or 12 cores (or more)? BTW - most of my HD video is in the 2 minute range per clip.

I understand the answers will probably vary by software :)

Thanks in advance...

There is very little software that can leverage 4 cores, never mind 8 or 12. Aperture only appears to use 2 cores from what I've seen. I believe most FCP tasks like time-line rendering, etc. use 2 cores except for compressor which can use more. I'm not sure about PhotoShop, but I believe it's terrible at multi-threading as well.
 
What all of you responded with is in line with what my "limited" research suggests. Makes you wonder if the 8 core > 12 core hype will be mainly just that - "hype" for many users - little practical value :confused:
 
What all of you responded with is in line with what my "limited" research suggests. Makes you wonder if the 8 core > 12 core hype will be mainly just that - "hype" for many users - little practical value :confused:

One last time – the Mac Pro (especially the single processor version) is terrible value for money, not necessarily because of the processor, but because of everything else.
 
What all of you responded with is in line with what my "limited" research suggests. Makes you wonder if the 8 core > 12 core hype will be mainly just that - "hype" for many users - little practical value :confused:

Yeah, I think the problem is simply what you get for the money on the quad's. In fact I think the general consensus on the dual proc's is that they are basically "fine."

But even when the quad's launched, on the day, there was a huge uproar over the value of what you got, and how the ram slots were gimped etc etc. At this point it's just entirely out of whack.

We'll see what the next update brings.
 
The last of the Mac Pro?

Will this update be a collector's item? This article is depressing. I hope it's wrong but so far the evidence indicates that indeed Apple is turning the corner away from Mac.

Signs of the Macpocalypse abound. This year, for the first time, the Apple Design Awards at WWDC'10 are only open to iPhone and iPad apps. Mac apps need not apply; they don't contribute to Apple's new walled garden ecosystem.

I wonder what others here think of this.
 
Mobile & Cloud computing will have exponential growth - 5 years from now high performing workstations will still be here - and the latest Mac Pro will be Simply Stunning :D
 
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