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lbeck

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Dec 5, 2009
381
0
What exactly do you mean by "using the ICH"?

My plan is to use all internal drives, I have four bays to play with. And will keep my current 120GB SSD for my boot/apps.

I'm actually thinking about two SSD's for current work in a RAID 0, then two 3 TB drives for other data.


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nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
What exactly do you mean by "using the ICH"?
ICH = I/O Controller Hub, which is the chip controller, and Audio controllers that come with the system. So I use this term to refer to the built-in SATA ports that came with the system (4x for HDD bays, 2x for ODD bays).

Hope this clears things up a bit. :)
 

lbeck

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Dec 5, 2009
381
0
ICH = I/O Controller Hub, which is the chip controller, and Audio controllers that come with the system. So I use this term to refer to the built-in SATA ports that came with the system (4x for HDD bays, 2x for ODD bays).

Hope this clears things up a bit. :)

Yep, sure does. I searched and found out what it was as well. I'm just going to have to stick with the internal SATA ports on my MP. Getting a controller card for speed just doesn't show results with what I do. It's unfortunate, I can't tell you how disappointed I am. It's hard to send back, I still have not done it.

The plan is what I mentioned previously though. Even though I don't see an increase with SSD's, I want to put current projects on them for reliability, plus there is a little speed benefit depending on what I'm doing. I'll just use the internal SATA 2 ports instead of the fast 1880i.


Then in the future when I need more storage, I will get an internal card that has more ports, and set up another 4bay enclosure in the optical drive for extra storage. At that point I can justify an extra cost due to needing more space :). Unless it's time to upgrade my whole system, and even if it is I still may need to get a card for extra storage, or sell of my current drives and buy larger ones, maybe 4TB HD's will be the norm in 1-2 years.

Man, I just can't let go of the speed yet, even if it's only seen on benchmarks. It's so freaking fast, average reads are 2GB/s and writes are close behind at 1700-1800 MB/s

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nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
Yep, sure does. I searched and found out what it was as well. I'm just going to have to stick with the internal SATA ports on my MP. Getting a controller card for speed just doesn't show results with what I do. It's unfortunate, I can't tell you how disappointed I am. It's hard to send back, I still have not done it.
There's drastic differences in controller cards, as you can go from a simple SATA (internal or external of 1 - 4 ports), all the way up to a 24 port non-RAID HBA (Host Bus Adapter). And that's all non-RAID. For the same port count, RAID is more expensive.

So in your case, a simple card like the RR620 could add a couple of internal ports on the cheap and allow you to keep the optical drive internal (ODD bay 1).

In terms of the RAID card, the only reason to hang on to it, is large capacity, redundant storage (i.e. more disks than the MP can handle, and use RAID 5 for example to get a nice balance of performance, redundancy, and cost - namely due to drives).

But if 4x internal HDD bays or less will do for your working data, then I'd send the Areca back. At least you have experience with it for future reference. ;)

Man, I just can't let go of the speed yet, even if it's only seen on benchmarks. It's so freaking fast, average reads are 2GB/s and writes are close behind at 1700-1800 MB/s
Like I said, it's addictive.

Welcome to Storage Anonomous... :eek: :D :p
 

lbeck

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Dec 5, 2009
381
0
Hi, my name is Luke and I'm addicted to speed ... Areca 1880i speed that is!!!


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xgman

macrumors 603
Aug 6, 2007
5,672
1,378
saw this today regarding Highpoint drivers:

HighPoint Technologies, Inc., a leading HBA and storage solutions manufacturer, is pleased to announce full support for Mac OS X Lion, continuing our long tradition of development for Apple's Macintosh Platforms. For the past seven years, HighPoint has delivered reliable, cost-effective, high-performance storage solutions to the Mac OS X community.
Our latest External and Hybrid RocketRAID 2700 6Gb/s SAS/SATA PCI-Express 2.0RAID HBA's, and a wide-range of existing 6Gb/s and 3Gb/s product lines, have been integrated into Mac OS X Lion. Native driver support enables OS X to automatically recognize supported HBA's, saving users valuable production time and simplifying installation procedures.
 

techblast

macrumors newbie
Jul 9, 2011
12
0
2006 Mac Pro 1,1 3 GHz 8 Core w/ 16GB Ram 8TB HD - I/O UPGRADE QUAGMIRE

Nano, certainly your knowledge of MP's are amazing. For years my MP 1,1 computer has performed like none other. Now I was considering buying a new Mac Pro 5,1 however this system still has native USB 2.0 and SATA 3G and that was a show stopper.

Having decided to wait until configuration 6,1 I just recently upgraded my MP 1,1 with new Intel 3GHz x5365 processors ( 8 Core), have purchased a 256Gb Crucial M4 SATA 6G SSD for booting, have ordered the Optical Bay Adapter from OWC and have ordered 4 new hard drives that I will make part of the new hardware RAID system - this way IF I need to go back to my current hard drives due to a mistake, I have that critical choice.

This leaves me with some final questions as I try and maximize Hard Drive performance via a PCIe hardware RAID Controller Card and hopefully try and understand how I can upgrade USB 2.0 to USB 3.0 for faster I/O reading from my USB Compact Flash Card reader.

Knowing that the PCIe bus inside my Mac Pro is a 1,1 version (2006), I have been advised that I should try and optimize to full SATA II (3G/sec) via a more robust data protecting PCIe RAID Controller set up, as this was basically my only real option. If this is the case what internal RAID card would you suggest for the PCIe 1.0 bus and what adapter kit (if any) to allow me to connect the cables leading to the 4 Hard Drive Bays to the new PCIe RAID Controller card? Is it simply pulling the drive cables from the MP 1,1 mother board and connecting them to the PCIe Raid Controller card?

With Regards to USB 3.0 is there a solution? I mean even if I can't get 5Gb/second, is there a way to get half of that speed? Perhaps making a USB 3.0 a USB 2.5?

Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
 

techblast

macrumors newbie
Jul 9, 2011
12
0
Ibeck's SAGA with 2010 MP 5,1 and Adobe CS 5.5 = Glad I Still Own my MP 2006 1,1

Just wanted to comment on the amazing upgrade journey for Ibeck! This is an interesting thread for a lot of MP owners wanting to pull more speed and utility from their respective machines.

I must say I may have to recalibrate my RAID I/O expectations and am amazed how even a 4 year newer Ma Pro can still be an I/O tortoise regardless of having up to 12 Cores/ 24 Virtual Cores, RAID and SSD RAID.

Still if it were me, I would NOT return the RAID card and SSD's. In 6 months you will most likely be able to upgrade Adobe software and be able to get a more self evident benefit from the RAID / SSD setup on your machine.

Heck the time you spent to make this happen has to have value and that alone would keep me from undoing all that you have achieved.

Now for me, I don't have PCIe 2.0 so I THINK I have some insurmountable limitations that will keep me confined to USB 2.0 and SATA II. However, I am hopeful to create a RAID system with a non RAID SSD for Mac OS Boot and perhaps a small 60GB RAID scratch pad for Photoshop, with the hope that Adobe will offer upgrades that will allow files to move faster - reading and writing.

Strangely I feel that I am not even close to maximum I/O possibilities with this old 2006 MP 1,1 rig and obviously neither is Adobe anywhere close to optimizing Creative Suite.
 

nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
Having decided to wait until configuration 6,1 I just recently upgraded my MP 1,1 with new Intel 3GHz x5365 processors ( 8 Core), have purchased a 256Gb Crucial M4 SATA 6G SSD for booting, have ordered the Optical Bay Adapter from OWC and have ordered 4 new hard drives that I will make part of the new hardware RAID system - this way IF I need to go back to my current hard drives due to a mistake, I have that critical choice.
If you do with a hardware RAID card, the mechanical drives you ordered may not work (particularly if they're consumer versions, as the recovery timings in the disk's firmware are different between consumer and enterprise disks for stability reasons).

So if you've bought consumer grade disks, you'll need to either use them for something else such as backup (always need backup, no matter how extensive or simple your storage system, which definitely includes RAID), or send them back.

Now what exactly are you trying to do (please be detailed, such as software, file sizes, ...)?

I ask, as the answers could help keep you from spending too much for your requirements.

Reading up on other RAID threads could help as well. Even Wiki's RAID page if you're not entirely sure about the different levels.

This leaves me with some final questions as I try and maximize Hard Drive performance via a PCIe hardware RAID Controller Card and hopefully try and understand how I can upgrade USB 2.0 to USB 3.0 for faster I/O reading from my USB Compact Flash Card reader.
There are threads on USB 3.0 cards (USB 3.0 card recommendations? is a good one).

Knowing that the PCIe bus inside my Mac Pro is a 1,1 version (2006), I have been advised that I should try and optimize to full SATA II (3G/sec) via a more robust data protecting PCIe RAID Controller set up, as this was basically my only real option. If this is the case what internal RAID card would you suggest for the PCIe 1.0 bus and what adapter kit (if any) to allow me to connect the cables leading to the 4 Hard Drive Bays to the new PCIe RAID Controller card? Is it simply pulling the drive cables from the MP 1,1 mother board and connecting them to the PCIe Raid Controller card?
Let's figure out what you actually need first, then go from there. ;)

Take a look at other RAID threads, and that will give you a better idea as to what to think about in terms of what you really need (initial capacity requirements, capacity growth rate, throughput requirements, ...).

This information will help determine which model of card, disks, adapters, ... are the right solution for say the next 3 - 5 years (in order to make it cost effective, as a proper hardware RAID system isn't cheap).

Now it's possible to transfer these from one system to another, which could make getting something like this valid in a 2006 that you don't plan on keeping long.

The other possibility, is to use software RAID and consumer grade disks in your current system (again, these can be moved to backup duty, such as via an eSATA card + PM enclosure, to keep them cost effective) until you get a new system. Then add in the hardware RAID (can be cheaper in terms of adapters alone).

BTW, from your other post, I did notice Photoshop. In terms of scratch, you'd be better off using a small capacity SSD (i.e. 40GB version from OWC that's just under the $100 USD mark). Fast and cheap.

With Regards to USB 3.0 is there a solution? I mean even if I can't get 5Gb/second, is there a way to get half of that speed? Perhaps making a USB 3.0 a USB 2.5?
Yes. It doesn't actually run at full speed, and in your case, won't be what you'd hope due to PCIe 1.0, as they're single lane cards (= max throughput would be 250MB/s; other systems it's double that due to PCIe 2.0).

But it's still faster than USB 2.0, so may still be worth it to you, and the thread linked has an inexpensive model listed.
 

handheldgames

macrumors 68000
Apr 4, 2009
1,939
1,169
Pacific NW, USA
Jumping to lion, my external SeriTek eSata II adapter magically became bootable.... Perhaps there may be other goodies for SATA III on the MacPro that are now bootable.
 

techblast

macrumors newbie
Jul 9, 2011
12
0
Now what exactly are you trying to do (please be detailed, such as software, file sizes, ...)?

Thanks for the response Nanofrog.

I have massive photo libraries, several TB's worth. I do a lot of amateur photography with my Canon 5d Mk II. As you can see from the 2 snaps below, I also Print with a wide format 12 ink system. The results are stunning, yet amateur. This is a 22meg pixel full frame digital camera. With these large file sizes, transfer times get a big long, especially when the 16GB Compact Flash card is full. The bottleneck being USB 2.0.

I then use various programs to post process and convert to TIFF files for printing. Files sizes reach to 60Meg although I have had a few in excess of 120Meg. As you can imagine, write times to single 2TB hard disks that store these files gets rather long, so the hard drives themselves act as another bottleneck.

Now, I don't run a graphics business that would require me to have the fastest Rig, however I do own my own Real Estate business and that takes up ~80% of my available time and that means trying to optimize or speed up my work flow when I am in my 20% window of time. I am trying to compress time, before I am 80 years old and wearing a bib;)

ALSO - I do use cameras extensively for my real estate business and do post processing of the 1000's of listing photos/ new home photos I take, so any time that can be saved working files for my business is a PLUS. I have worn out 3 Canon SLR's already.

I recently purchased the Adobe 5.5 Suites for windows and Mac. However I have been using Canon RAW software and XARA Designer Pro software which are great products in their own right, but once you hit a certain level of creativity, well it seems all roads leads to Photoshop. Essentially I have hit my creative limit with XARA Designer Pro and need more tools available to me, hence I am starting classes on Photoshop in a week and will be integrating Photoshop into my post processing work flow. It was Photoshop, that got me looking for a new computer (because I heard how slow it can be from XARA which is slow enough when your pushing lots of files) and or enhancing the one I have. So I choose to enhance my 06 MP 1,1 and wait until Apple upgrades it's Mac Pro platform so as to include native I/O improvements.

I was actually going to buy a $5500 2010 12 Core 32 Gig RAM 8 TB's of Baracuda's with a USB 3.0 card and 2 60GB SSD's plus a Quadro 4000 card - but I could not pull the trigger knowing native USB 3.0 and SATA 6G was missing.

Thanks again! Hope this is not too long of a read.
 

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techblast

macrumors newbie
Jul 9, 2011
12
0
Answers Concerning Type of Hard Drives

If you do with a hardware RAID card, the mechanical drives you ordered may not work (particularly if they're consumer versions, as the recovery timings in the disk's firmware are different between consumer and enterprise disks for stability reasons).

So if you've bought consumer grade disks, you'll need to either use them for something else such as backup (always need backup, no matter how extensive or simple your storage system, which definitely includes RAID), or send them back.

BTW - I have 4 new 2.0 TB WD Caviar Black WD2002FAEX. Still in wraps. Same for my new Crucial M4 256Mb SATA 6G 2.5" SSD.

So if I am reading you correctly you're suggesting that I purchase an external RAID enclosure, perhaps 4-6 drives and then purchase enterprise level drives, and then use the MP's 4 internal bays as the RAID backup, but that the 4 internal bays would need to be set up using the MAC OS software raid solution? Would it not be better to backup to single drives, or would I simply mirror the external RAID?
 

nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
I have massive photo libraries, several TB's worth. I do a lot of amateur photography with my Canon 5d Mk II. As you can see from the 2 snaps below, I also Print with a wide format 12 ink system. The results are stunning, yet amateur. This is a 22meg pixel full frame digital camera. With these large file sizes, transfer times get a big long, especially when the 16GB Compact Flash card is full. The bottleneck being USB 2.0.
I'm still not sure of what your current capacity requirements are or what your growth rate is.

For example, sit down and figure out the avg. file size of the pics you're shooting (personal + business), multiply by the number of photos per year, and then multiply by say 3 (i.e. constant rate of capacity growth, planned for 3 years).

From the bits of information you've posted, it actually appears to be the following:
Avg. File size = 60M
Avg. # of files per year = 1000​

Then you get 60M * 1000 * 3 = 180GB over a 3 year period. But I'm not certain on this (no idea if you've any growth or not, or if I've under-estimated the annual # of files generated). So the math could be inaccurate.

Granted, 180GB isn't that much in terms of capacity, so it probably won't matter if say the annual # of files is 5x that (still under 1TB over 3 years).

Now it might not seem like much, but with RAID, the smallest details tend to be critical. Not just in getting the right hardware, but there are significant costs involved with hardware solutions (hitting $5k for a modest DAS isn't that hard to do).

This is why it's in your best interest to sit down and really think about this carefully (your wallet will thank you, as in uncertain instances, the "safe" thing to do is over-estimate to cover variances, and that translates into real money). Particularly disks when a hardware RAID card is used, as they're more expensive than their consumer counterparts (by more than 2x on the largest capacity disks for example). It adds up. Quick.

I then use various programs to post process and convert to TIFF files for printing. Files sizes reach to 60Meg although I have had a few in excess of 120Meg. As you can imagine, write times to single 2TB hard disks that store these files gets rather long, so the hard drives themselves act as another bottleneck.
If these applications are anything like Photoshop, the storage system isn't as big a bottleneck as you might think (go back and re-read what happened with lbeck's implementation - he got carried away, when the limitation was how Photoshop handles reads and writes = single threaded operation).

I recently purchased the Adobe 5.5 Suites for windows and Mac. However I have been using Canon RAW software and XARA Designer Pro software which are great products in their own right, but once you hit a certain level of creativity, well it seems all roads leads to Photoshop. Essentially I have hit my creative limit with XARA Designer Pro and need more tools available to me, hence I am starting classes on Photoshop in a week and will be integrating Photoshop into my post processing work flow. It was Photoshop, that got me looking for a new computer (because I heard how slow it can be from XARA which is slow enough when your pushing lots of files) and or enhancing the one I have. So I choose to enhance my 06 MP 1,1 and wait until Apple upgrades it's Mac Pro platform so as to include native I/O improvements.
Well, the 2006 already has limits on the OS X side (EFI 32 based firmware, so graphics cards are already limited, as will be OS X once it goes to a 64 bit Kernel exclusively), but will last longer as a Windows machine (will still be able to stuff in a PC graphics card, and continue to upgrade Windows).

As per USB limitations, that's solvable with an inexpensive 3rd party card (not as fast as it could be due to the PCIe 1.0 spec, but a bit more than 4x faster than USB 2.0). Should be quite an improvement for you, without costing an arm + leg + first born.

I was actually going to buy a $5500 2010 12 Core 32 Gig RAM 8 TB's of Baracuda's with a USB 3.0 card and 2 60GB SSD's plus a Quadro 4000 card - but I could not pull the trigger knowing native USB 3.0 and SATA 6G was missing.
You wouldn't be able to use that much machine. Photoshop is limited to 2x cores. Filters/effect layers can push it up a bit (i.e. 4x cores), but you won't be able to use all 12, so it's a waste of money.

You'd be better off with an SP Hex, as it not only has a fast clock which is good for single threaded or limited threaded applications, but you can run other portions of CS5.5 that can use more cores if you ever begin to use those (i.e. After Effects or DVD encoding via Media Encoder). The audio applications do as well, but I presume you don't do anything with sound ATM.

Even if you buy a new machine now, you'll still need to add in upgrades like memory, storage, and a USB 3.0 card. All of which are cheaper via 3rd party suppliers.

So it comes down to are you willing to wait until say ~ March 2012 for the next systems, which are likely going to cost more money, or go ahead and get a faster system now. Which BTW, still will not contain USB 3.0 (they will have a couple of SATA 6.0Gb/s ports). Intel isn't putting USB 3.0 into their chipsets yet (intentional delay), in order to help get TB adopted.

Another thing to keep in mind, is OS/applications disks rely on random access read performance, which isn't anywhere near able to saturate SATA 3.0Gb/s, let alone 6.0Gb/s (i.e. random access read performance is typically under ~ 70MB/s on a fast SSD, yet 3.0Gb/s is good for ~275MB/s of sustained throughput). Far lower than the sustained sequential read speeds you're seeing (over 400MB/s figures).

BTW - I have 4 new 2.0 TB WD Caviar Black WD2002FAEX. Still in wraps. Same for my new Crucial M4 256Mb SATA 6G 2.5" SSD.
Given what you've listed so far, I don't think you even need a hardware RAID card.

Currently, I'm thinking of the following:
  • ODD Bay 2 = SSD for OS/Applications disk
  • ODD Bay 2 = 2nd SSD for Photoshop scratch
  • HDD Bay 1 - 4 = 4x Caviar Blacks in a RAID 10 configuration via Disk Utility
Cheap, doesn't need a RAID card or enterprise grade disks, or special adapters (save the ODD bay if you don't want to DIY something). Speed is that of a 2x disk stripe set (RAID 0), but also has an n = 2 disk redundancy.

Toss in a USB 3.0 card for your CF card reader, and an eSATA card for connecting a backup system (green drives are perfect for this duty), and you're done.

So if I am reading you correctly you're suggesting that I purchase an external RAID enclosure, perhaps 4-6 drives and then purchase enterprise level drives, and then use the MP's 4 internal bays as the RAID backup, but that the 4 internal bays would need to be set up using the MAC OS software raid solution? Would it not be better to backup to single drives, or would I simply mirror the external RAID?
I suspect you don't need this at all from currently available information. This could change, but I'd need more information in order to shift my way of thinking.

Now if you were burning through more capacity than can fit inside a MP, or needed throughputs faster than what 4x ports can deliver, then Yes, you'd need a hardware RAID solution. So if this is the case, I need to know.
 

techblast

macrumors newbie
Jul 9, 2011
12
0
Thank YOU - I am Listening Nanofrog!

I'm still not sure of what your current capacity requirements are or what your growth rate is.

For example, sit down and figure out the avg. file size of the pics you're shooting (personal + business), multiply by the number of photos per year, and then multiply by say 3 (i.e. constant rate of capacity growth, planned for 3 years).

From the bits of information you've posted, it actually appears to be the following:
Avg. File size = 60M
Avg. # of files per year = 1000​

Then you get 60M * 1000 * 3 = 180GB over a 3 year period. But I'm not certain on this (no idea if you've any growth or not, or if I've under-estimated the annual # of files generated). So the math could be inaccurate.

Granted, 180GB isn't that much in terms of capacity, so it probably won't matter if say the annual # of files is 5x that (still under 1TB over 3 years).

Actually when I am taking photos of an event, I can shoot 500 shots and easily fill 24 Gigs of storage, but you are correct about actual storage needed. However, with all the programs that I have, it is not unusual for me to make multiple libraries of the same photos. Normally, I'll keep a full set in a Windows partition as sometimes I find myself using Windows for graphic editing. That is why I have a copy of Adobe Creative Suite 5.5 for Windows as well as Mac OS.

these applications are anything like Photoshop, the storage system isn't as big a bottleneck as you might think (go back and re-read what happened with lbeck's implementation - he got carried away, when the limitation was how Photoshop handles reads and writes = single threaded operation).

Yes, was actually amazed at IBECK's findings. It was like taking a dragster through a school zone at 20MPH. Almost shocking to think ADOBE was the brick wall holding back professional graphic's artists. Adobe should be ashamed of how retro they have become to the need for speed from users who depend on this extremely expensive software for their livelihoods. Just my opinion.


, the 2006 already has limits on the OS X side (EFI 32 based firmware, so graphics cards are already limited, as will be OS X once it goes to a 64 bit Kernel exclusively), but will last longer as a Windows machine (will still be able to stuff in a PC graphics card, and continue to upgrade Windows).

Strangely the 2006 MP 1,1 supposedly is able to go into 64bit mode depending upon the application. I have read where users were able to load Windows 7 x64 via Bootcamp with a few tweaks and run this program as a 64 bit application. BTW - My Graphics Card is a new Radeon 5770.

per USB limitations, that's solvable with an inexpensive 3rd party card (not as fast as it could be due to the PCIe 1.0 spec, but a bit more than 4x faster than USB 2.0). Should be quite an improvement for you, without costing an arm + leg + first born.

Everything I have found regarding USB 3.0 PCIe cards were that they were of the 2.0 version versus 1.0 version which is what my PCIe bus is. Can I use the 2.0 version, and expect better performance, but not full USB 3.0 speed? Even a 50% or doubling of file reading from a Compact Flash reader is a PLUS and paying $35 for such a card would be a no brainer. Here is an example I found of a USB 3.0 Card. Do you have a better recommendation?


wouldn't be able to use that much machine. Photoshop is limited to 2x cores. Filters/effect layers can push it up a bit (i.e. 4x cores), but you won't be able to use all 12, so it's a waste of money.

You'd be better off with an SP Hex, as it not only has a fast clock which is good for single threaded or limited threaded applications, but you can run other portions of CS5.5 that can use more cores if you ever begin to use those (i.e. After Effects or DVD encoding via Media Encoder). The audio applications do as well, but I presume you don't do anything with sound ATM.

if you buy a new machine now, you'll still need to add in upgrades like memory, storage, and a USB 3.0 card. All of which are cheaper via 3rd party suppliers.

So it comes down to are you willing to wait until say ~ March 2012 for the next systems, which are likely going to cost more money, or go ahead and get a faster system now. Which BTW, still will not contain USB 3.0 (they will have a couple of SATA 6.0Gb/s ports). Intel isn't putting USB 3.0 into their chipsets yet (intentional delay), in order to help get TB adopted.

I will wait for the new Mac Pro 6,1. I mean SATA II is what I now have in my 2006 machine. Why would I want to upgrade to get 2006 I/O technology? Sure with the PCIe 2.0 bus I can plug in a USB 3.0 and SATA 6G card and get near full speed (from what I have read), but I would rather have native support built into the motherboard. Typically less hiccups when it is a hardware design feature of the computer itself.

Another thing to keep in mind, is OS/applications disks rely on random access read performance, which isn't anywhere near able to saturate SATA 3.0Gb/s, let alone 6.0Gb/s (i.e. random access read performance is typically under ~ 70MB/s on a fast SSD, yet 3.0Gb/s is good for ~275MB/s of sustained throughput). Far lower than the sustained sequential read speeds you're seeing (over 400MB/s figures).


what you've listed so far, I don't think you even need a hardware RAID card.

Currently, I'm thinking of the following:
  • ODD Bay 2 = SSD for OS/Applications disk - THIS WOULD BE OPTICAL BAY NO. 2 OR THE LOWER OPTICAL BAY?
  • ODD Bay 2 = 2nd SSD for Photoshop scratch - AGREE WITH THIS CONCEPT AS I ONLY HAVE 16GB OF RAM
  • HDD Bay 1 - 4 = 4x Caviar Blacks in a RAID 10 configuration via Disk Utility
Cheap, doesn't need a RAID card or enterprise grade disks, or special adapters (save the ODD bay if you don't want to DIY something). Speed is that of a 2x disk stripe set (RAID 0), but also has an n = 2 disk redundancy.

The only FLY in the ointment is the need for a Windows 7 Partition. I was using VMWare Fusion Rev. 3, but have read reports that Parallels Rev. 6 was actually a better platform. I don't think I want to just use Bootcamp as I need to be able to launch the virtual partition and keep in open. Also, I would rather use ONE Hard Disk for the Windows partition. The only way I can log into my MLS servers is with Microsoft Explorer. Also there are a bunch of programs that I use in Windows. The need for Speed in Windows is not as critical as with Mac OS and Mac Apps, but it surely would not hurt. I guess I could get a SATA II non Raid controller and put my Window Drives outside the computer box in their own enclosure. I would use one drive for my active drive and the other to create a clone every few weeks. This way if I ever needed to pull cloud data, it would only take minutes to update the clone.

in a USB 3.0 card for your CF card reader, and an eSATA card for connecting a backup system (green drives are perfect for this duty), and you're done.


I suspect you don't need this at all from currently available information. This could change, but I'd need more information in order to shift my way of thinking.

Now if you were burning through more capacity than can fit inside a MP, or needed throughputs faster than what 4x ports can deliver, then Yes, you'd need a hardware RAID solution. So if this is the case, I need to know.

Final thoughts - would you connect the SSD drive(s) via an eSata cable to the spare connector on the Motherboard? With one optical drive in operation how many spare eSATA connectors do I have remaining? Once I have my SSD Adapter from OWC, I will mount the OS SSD and Scratch Pad SSD to the sled, but was just unclear how to connect these 2 drives to the Mother PCB or if I needed any additional hardware. THe OWC kit has cables included and then I purchased a 2nd set just in case.

That means I need to buy a plain old non RAID PCIe SATA controller, maybe 2 ports out going and 2 internal.

A USB 3.0 PCIe Card. Only question is which cards would you suggest? They seem to all be 2.0 version.

Once I get the parts, this is going to be FUN. I will intentionally use NEW Hard Drives and keep my original hard drives tucked away in case I screw up and need to go back.
 

nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
Strangely the 2006 MP 1,1 supposedly is able to go into 64bit mode depending upon the application. I have read where users were able to load Windows 7 x64 via Bootcamp with a few tweaks and run this program as a 64 bit application. BTW - My Graphics Card is a new Radeon 5770.
The actual hardware is capable of 64 bit operation (64 bit CPU's), but the firmware is not 64 bit. So it's only capable of running a 32 bit Kernel (aka K32), and the memory is limited as well (Apple uses 36 bit memory addressing in their K32 versions of OS X in order to exceed the capacity limit imposed by 32 bit memory addressing if it was left solely to the system's firmware).

They also modified the K32 Kernel to allow for 64 bit applications to run.

But the firmware is causing limits under OS X in terms of upgrade paths.

Everything I have found regarding USB 3.0 PCIe cards were that they were of the 2.0 version versus 1.0 version which is what my PCIe bus is. Can I use the 2.0 version, and expect better performance, but not full USB 3.0 speed? Even a 50% or doubling of file reading from a Compact Flash reader is a PLUS and paying $35 for such a card would be a no brainer. Here is an example I found of a USB 3.0 Card. Do you have a better recommendation?
PCIe 2.0 spec cards will step down to PCIe 1.0 when in a slot on that specification (backwards compatibility).

So a USB 3.0 built to PCIe 2.0 specifications will run in your system, and the card linked would work.

I will wait for the new Mac Pro 6,1. I mean SATA II is what I now have in my 2006 machine. Why would I want to upgrade to get 2006 I/O technology? Sure with the PCIe 2.0 bus I can plug in a USB 3.0 and SATA 6G card and get near full speed (from what I have read), but I would rather have native support built into the motherboard. Typically less hiccups when it is a hardware design feature of the computer itself.
The comment was based on the combination that the next MP is going to be a good while before it releases, and may cost more money than current offerings.

So it comes down to how bad you really need to upgrade, and budget. If you can wait without spending a bunch of cash on the current system (things that can be transferred to the next model you buy), then wait.

The only FLY in the ointment is the need for a Windows 7 Partition. I was using VMWare Fusion Rev. 3, but have read reports that Parallels Rev. 6 was actually a better platform. I don't think I want to just use Bootcamp as I need to be able to launch the virtual partition and keep in open. Also, I would rather use ONE Hard Disk for the Windows partition. The only way I can log into my MLS servers is with Microsoft Explorer. Also there are a bunch of programs that I use in Windows. The need for Speed in Windows is not as critical as with Mac OS and Mac Apps, but it surely would not hurt. I guess I could get a SATA II non Raid controller and put my Window Drives outside the computer box in their own enclosure. I would use one drive for my active drive and the other to create a clone every few weeks. This way if I ever needed to pull cloud data, it would only take minutes to update the clone.
External would be one solution, internal via a SATA card is another (MP only has 6x SATA ports in it; 2x for the optical bays, and 4x for the HDD bays).

You could also share the OS/applications via Boot Camp. But I do prefer a separate drive myself, and Boot Camp isn't actually needed for this sort of configuration (will need another SATA port or eSATA port to connect it to the system though).

The Highpoint RR620 would be an inexpensive product, and is also SATA III (still has limits though, as even on PCIe 2.0, the max throughput is limited to 500MB/s). Not useless by any means however, and it's not expensive either.

Final thoughts - would you connect the SSD drive(s) via an eSata cable to the spare connector on the Motherboard?
NO.

Using an eSATA bracket on the ODD_SATA ports tends to be problematic, particularly over cable distance issues (1.0 meter for passive connections <internal ports>, 2.0 meters for active <external ports>). They're the same data spec, but have different operating voltages (eSATA runs a little higher voltage to allow for the additional length).

With one optical drive in operation how many spare eSATA connectors do I have remaining?
The system has a grand total of 6 SATA ports.

2x are on the logic board, labeled ODD_SATA, and the remaining 4x are for the HDD bays.

You need at least one more port, and is why I linked the RR620 for an internal card. External version is the RR622 (otherwise the same card). Newertech is an option here as well (found on OWC's site).

Once I have my SSD Adapter from OWC, I will mount the OS SSD and Scratch Pad SSD to the sled, but was just unclear how to connect these 2 drives to the Mother PCB or if I needed any additional hardware.
If you skip the OWC mount, all you need is 1x standard SATA cable (data) per disk, and connect it between the respective disk and one of the ODD_SATA ports located on the logic board.

Power is provided by a Molex to SATA Y splitter.

Easy. 2006 - 2008 is a lot easier to add in upgrades for the ODD bays in terms of connecting Data and power signals IMO.
 

techblast

macrumors newbie
Jul 9, 2011
12
0
Ok - parts on order - tuesday delivery

The actual hardware is capable of 64 bit operation (64 bit CPU's), but the firmware is not 64 bit. So it's only capable of running a 32 bit Kernel (aka K32), and the memory is limited as well (Apple uses 36 bit memory addressing in their K32 versions of OS X in order to exceed the capacity limit imposed by 32 bit memory addressing if it was left solely to the system's firmware).

They also modified the K32 Kernel to allow for 64 bit applications to run.

But the firmware is causing limits under OS X in terms of upgrade paths.

I suppose there are no EFI work arounds? Sad, as this machine is an x64 machine with an unfortunate throttle governor. See below the screen shot showing apps running in x64 mode. Are these x64 apps actually operating in x32 mode?



2.0 spec cards will step down to PCIe 1.0 when in a slot on that specification (backwards compatibility).

So a USB 3.0 built to PCIe 2.0 specifications will run in your system, and the card linked would work.

I have ordered the HIGHPOINT Rocket 620 & 622. So, I now have the internal SSD connections for my 2 SSD drives, plus I can connect my Thermaltake Black Widow docking station to the external eSata port on the Rocket 622. This will allow me to backup externally or keep my Windows partitioned drive external to the 4 bays. I still plan to buy a 2nd docking station or external drive station so I can clone my Windows drive periodically so I can have a rock and roll ready replacement drive (I think). With XP there are no problems cloning with Carbon Copy. But I am going to upgrade to Win 7 x64 and I can't be certain that this OS will allow itself to be Cloned. We'll find out.


External would be one solution, internal via a SATA card is another (MP only has 6x SATA ports in it; 2x for the optical bays, and 4x for the HDD bays).

When I upgraded my CPU's to Intel x5365's last week, I noticed ONE spare ODD SATA port on the motherboard ( I do have 2 Optical Drives currently in my MP). What I had originally thought I would do with this unused internal motherboard SATA port was to connect a NewerTechnology eSATA extender Cable and use that port for my Thermaltake Black Widow, and I can still do this even though I did order the Rocket 622. I believe you indicated that it was best to avoid longer cable runs, and I tend to agree.


NO.

Using an eSATA bracket on the ODD_SATA ports tends to be problematic, particularly over cable distance issues (1.0 meter for passive connections <internal ports>, 2.0 meters for active <external ports>). They're the same data spec, but have different operating voltages (eSATA runs a little higher voltage to allow for the additional length).

This is why I ordered the ROCKET 622 versus using the bracket eSATA connector solution.


The system has a grand total of 6 SATA ports.

2x are on the logic board, labeled ODD_SATA, and the remaining 4x are for the HDD bays.
I assume that the 2 optical drives use just one eSATA connection on the Motherboard?

You need at least one more port, and is why I linked the RR620 for an internal card. External version is the RR622 (otherwise the same card). Newertech is an option here as well (found on OWC's site).


If you skip the OWC mount, all you need is 1x standard SATA cable (data) per disk, and connect it between the respective disk and one of the ODD_SATA ports located on the logic board.

Power is provided by a Molex to SATA Y splitter.

Easy. 2006 - 2008 is a lot easier to add in upgrades for the ODD bays in terms of connecting Data and power signals IMO.

I confirmed I have the power cables needed, so now waiting on a USB 3.0 Card and 2 PCIe SATA controllers and I can take this system down for the upgrading. Hopefully, this will happen on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Incredible information Nanofrog! Thanks so much.

One last parting question - x32 - x64 with Windows 7 x64. Obviously I will try and get this to work. I have a copy of Win 7 x64 and I will attempt to load to my partitioned drive. I am sure I will have fun with this. I have read here and there where others were able to work around the EFI limitation, but that was with bootcamp. Anyway I will let you know what I find out. This old Mac Pro 1,1 ain't done yet!
 

techblast

macrumors newbie
Jul 9, 2011
12
0
Forgot to add the x64 System Profiler Screen Shot

I suppose there are no EFI work arounds? Sad, as this machine is an x64 machine with an unfortunate throttle governor. See below the screen shot showing apps running in x64 mode? Are these x64 apps actually operating in x32 mode?

See System Profiler showing x64 apps running on my Mac Pro 1,1
 

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nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
I suppose there are no EFI work around? Sad, as this machine is an x64 machine with an unfortunate throttle governor. See below the screen shot showing apps running in x64 mode. Are these x64 apps actually operating in x32 mode?
No. Apple would need to update the firmware for the 2006/7 systems to change it from EFI32 to EFI64, and they've not done it.

Given the amount of time that's past, it's reasonable to assume they've no intention of ever doing this either (Apple's not big on support, and it also forces obsolescence = better for their bottom line if users must upgrade and are committed to OS X).

As per your applications, some are 32 bit, others are 64 bit (look at the far right hand column; No = 32 bit, Yes = 64 bit).

I have ordered the HIGHPOINT Rocket 620 & 622. So, I now have the internal SSD connections for my 2 SSD drives, plus I can connect my Thermaltake Black Widow docking station to the external eSata port on the Rocket 622. This will allow me to backup externally or keep my Windows partitioned drive external to the 4 bays. I still plan to buy a 2nd docking station or external drive station so I can clone my Windows drive periodically so I can have a rock and roll ready replacement drive (I think). With XP there are no problems cloning with Carbon Copy. But I am going to upgrade to Win 7 x64 and I can't be certain that this OS will allow itself to be Cloned. We'll find out.
IIRC, others have indicated it works with Win 7 as well (they had to run Boot Camp to get the GPT partitioning scheme for CCC or Super Duper to work, even if it's on a separate drive).

When I upgraded my CPU's to Intel x5365's last week, I noticed ONE spare ODD SATA port on the motherboard ( I do have 2 Optical Drives currently in my MP). What I had originally thought I would do with this unused internal motherboard SATA port was to connect a NewerTechnology eSATA extender Cable and use that port for my Thermaltake Black Widow, and I can still do this even though I did order the Rocket 622. I believe you indicated that it was best to avoid longer cable runs, and I tend to agree.
The OEM optical disks used IDE rather than SATA, so both ODD_SATA ports came unused from the factory. Obviously, you've used one of these for the 2nd optical drive.

So you'll have to figure out if both the 620 + 622 will give you enough ports and the right types to keep both optical drives. There may be space implications here as well (not able to stuff in SSD's or HDD's in an occupied ODD bay). Shouldn't be too hard to figure out. ;)

Worst case, you can get a 5.25" external enclosure for the optical drive currently located in ODD bay 2.

Definitely skip the eSATA bracket adapter, as it's too big of a PITA. Especially considering the price tag on the 622 (~$6 more or so than the bracket = no brainer IMO).

I assume that the 2 optical drives use just one eSATA connection on the Motherboard?
NO.

That's only with IDE (can put 2x disks on a single port in a Master + Slave configuration). SATA is 1:1 natively (no Port Multiplier chip between a single port and up to 5x disks <max count per the design limit>).
 

techblast

macrumors newbie
Jul 9, 2011
12
0
Thanks Nanofrog

Still waiting on parts. Everything should be here tomorrow or by Wednesday. That is when I begin setting up the next 4 HD's, the OS, Software Raid, Thermaltake dock, SSD, and then Windows 7 x64. Just enough to make someone go mad, but I would not have it any other way!:eek:

You have been a living library of information and I want to thank you for your kind generousity.
 

nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
Still waiting on parts. Everything should be here tomorrow or by Wednesday. That is when I begin setting up the next 4 HD's, the OS, Software Raid, Thermaltake dock, SSD, and then Windows 7 x64. Just enough to make someone go mad, but I would not have it any other way!:eek:
You'll have your hands full getting it all done, but once you've gotten it all sorted, it should cause a lot of this... :D :D :D

You have been a living library of information and I want to thank you for your kind generousity.
You're welcome. :)
 
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