Mac Pro and Woodcrest: Confirmed?

[jiggie2g]

Amen to that.
Look, I was looking forward to probably getting a Mac Pro later this year/early next year (more towards the time that all the "initial adopters" have reported all their bugs and CS3/Adobe goes Universal) but then I realized that I'd most likely be paying at least $2,000 for a BASE Mac Pro and that's disgusting. I'd like a Mac Pro with a decent amount of bells and whistles, not a base model...so then I'm probably paying $2,500+ (closer to $3,000) and that's ridiculous.

I love OSX as much as the next guy, but $3,000 is a large sum to pay for a computer. $3,000 could pay off about half of my remaining car loan balance...so if I have $3,000 dispensable income, sorry - I'd rather get the car paid off.

If Apple said "we realize the market prices and we're going to be competitive" then I'd be all ears. But we all know that isn't going to happen; no matter who makes Apple's innards or how non-unique it is, Apple will still charge an arm and a leg over street prices and quote it as being "the price to pay for the Apple experience". Like sbarton said, you can build a Core 2 Duo system for cheaper than $1,200 and I guarantee you that it'll come with a whole lot more than a Mac Pro costing twice the amount. If you're so hung up on running Windows and you hate it that bad, then by all means find a *nix distro that you like or attempt to run OSX86 on it. (I'm not encouraging software piracy nor am I discussing it further - I'm just saying "it's an option".)

I really want to buy an Apple again after using a G5 for the last year + at work, and I'm having a crippled experience on an outdated/slow machine running old versions of the programs I use. (G5 1.8, 1256mb RAM, OSX 10.39 Panther, Adobe CS Suite 1) It's high time though that I've come to realize that I'll never get a Mac for what I'm willing to pay for one, and I'm not accepting crippled hardware just to get OSX (ie buying a Mini or even an iMac both of which will undoubtedly be cheaper than a Mac Pro). Dell's get cheaper by the day...heck Dell's nowadays in most cases are actually cheaper than building your own (and you get a lot of freebie bonuses including monitors and the Windows License/install discs that you normally pay for). I thought about buying a refurb G5 DP (prob a 2.3) but for what I'd pay for that, it's still several hundred dollars over the same Core 2 system with better hardware, so I'm stuck no matter what I do. I'm not looking for pity or trying to incite a flame war, I'm just saying.

Meanwhile Apple apparently hasn't gotten the memo about PC price inflation being dead as of 6+ years ago. /shrug
Enjoy your new computers folks...wish I had the money to join you. Guess I'll stick with my P4 desktop and A2200+ laptop for now and maybe build a Core 2 system next year instead and take some of that extra money and put it towards the car loan. 🙁 Guess I'll be sticking with CS2 in Windows for the time being...

This is the reason why I will never buy an Apple desktop again, I may purchase a Macbook if Apple keeps prices competitive. When it came time for me to replace my iMac G4 , I had to chosee to either buy a $1999 entry level So-Called Workstation G5 Tower or go back to Windows. I was fed up with the all in one form factor and pretty pissed about having to get rid of a prefectly good 15in LCD because it was attached to my iMac. In the end I put together a prefectly good Athlon 64 3000+ system for about $800 , with better specs then that $2K G5 and never looked back. My Windows XP Pro installation is rock solid. Just buy good quality components.

Exactly. And that's why many of us think they will exercise choice b. Otherwise they would have to use the much more expensive Meroms just to top out at 2.33GHz which makes no sense. iMacs are due a do-over anyway. Why not for Conroe running up to almost 3GHz?

if u think Apple would put a $530 E6700 let alone a $999 X6800 in an iMac , then u need to pass me some of that stuff your smoking.

 

[Evangelion]

Exactly. And that's why many of us think they will exercise choice b. Otherwise they would have to use the much more expensive Meroms just to top out at 2.33GHz which makes no sense. iMacs are due a do-over anyway. Why not for Conroe running up to almost 3GHz?

At 3Ghz (or close to it) it might run too hot. While iMac has a bit more space than MBP has, you are basically suggesting using a CPU that over twice the heat-output of the Yonah in MBP (which already runs very hot). 25w vs. 65w.

And while Merom tops out at 2.33Ghz currently, it will scale up. Currently iMac has 1.83 and 2GHz Yonah. If Apple replaces them with 2 and 2.16Ghz Meroms, they would give their customers a nice speed-boost while still leaving them room to go up.

 

[Evangelion]

Why doesn't splitting the lineup make sense?

Because it makes the lineup more expensive (different CPU's, different MoBo, different RAM etc.) and confusing. It would be like having PowerMacs with both G4 and G5 in 'em.

If they don't split the lineup, they're looking at bumping the price of the base model by hundreds of dollars with no benefit.

Yep, the prices would propably go up. But in return, the performance would also go up. Currently the low-end machine is 1x2Ghz dualcore. The new low-end would be 2xGhz dualcore which would propably significantly outperform the current quad-core machine for less money.

When the prices go up (from $1999 to $2499 my guesstimate) it leaves a hole in Apple's lineup. Which they will fill with a minotower that uses Conroe (prices ranging from $1499 to $1999).

I wish apple would stop wasting money on the "kick ass case", especially since it's not that great a case aside from looking pretty. I'd love to see a budget model that was simple - why not make one more similar to a dell and keep the price more competitive? I buy it for the OS and apps, not because the plastic is shinier.

Why doesn't BMW try to compete with Dodge, and take their quality down a bit? They would be a lot more "competetive" then, right? maybe Genelec could just make a bit crappier speakers for less money so they would be "competetive" with Creative?

Apple simply does not make cheap and flimsy computers, period. And I commend them for that. I value their design. And I wish that there were more people who appreciate good design, as opposed to just throwing something cheap together for rock-bottom prices. If you want rock-bottom prices, go to Dell or Gateway. You have that option.

 

[Mord]

Not necessarily. They could also just put the conroe in the base model with the same form factor, although they probably wouldn't be able to get it as cheap. I don't really care if they go with the mini form factor or not as long as the price is low enough.



That's a $300 difference in list price. Even if apple pays half of that, it's a significant amount, not to mention that the difference goes higher the more ram you buy.

Sure, it makes sense for companies to offer a single woodcrest config IN ADDITION to conroe configs. It mostly makes sense for users who want to add the second chip themselves in the future. But all those companies also will sell conroe configs, and they will be cheaper. It just doesn't make sense to sell single woodcrest as a substitute for conroe, apple would likely be the only company doing that.

And the cube failed because it was simply outrageously overpriced (I would NOT consider it "powermac" by any stretch of the imagination, but it still cost almost as much as the full towers). They brought it back as the mini which has sold very well and demonstrated that people DO want smaller, cheaper alternatives.

the cube was cheaper and the only thing that was different was the lack of pci slots.

and this brings us back to the fact that apple does not do a consumer powermac, it never has and the cube was the closest they came.

 

[Multimedia]

I Never Said Anything About Putting Expensive Conroes In iMacs - Only The Cheap Ones

If u think Apple would put a $530 E6700 let alone a $999 X6800 in an iMac , then u need to pass me some of that stuff your smoking.

I never had the slightest thought that would ever happen. Why do you think I did oh great XP Pro master? 🙄

 

[Evangelion]

Please install Linux on a Core Duo and tell me if it installs the SMP kernel !

Have I claimed that it doesn't? What I have been saying is that there are more than one way to look at this. For starters, what is a "processor"? Is it the core inside the die? Or is it that thingy that you can hold in your hand? It all depends how you look at things.

Seriously: take a chill-pill. Your head wont explode if there are some people on this planet that have different look on things that you do.

 

[Evangelion]

the imac G5 has sufficient cooling to handle conroe, the macbook just has a heatplate connected to a heatpipe connected to small radiator, the imac has a full blow large copper heatsink over it similar to those used on 1U servers which can handle 100w xeons.

And those 1U servers sound like passenger-jets that are about to take off.

 

[Mord]

I never had the slightest thought that would ever happen. Why do you think I did oh great XP Pro master? 🙄

well it's not out of the bounds of possibility, the 2GHz core duo had a list price of about 450 bucks.

 

[Eidorian]

And those 1U servers sound like passenger-jets that are about to take off.

Only when on boot up.

 

[Mord]

And those 1U servers sound like passenger-jets that are about to take off.

because noise does not matter with such servers, as said before the imacs cooling system is the same as with the G5's and the G5's are similar heat wise to conroe, it shouldn't be too hard to get conroe into the imac.


oh and jiggy, you have a magical tallent for ignoreing when people disprove you and then rabbiting on about things we frankly don't care about, no one gives a **** you built an AMD pc, good for you.

 

[milo]

Because it makes the lineup more expensive (different CPU's, different MoBo, different RAM etc.) and confusing. It would be like having PowerMacs with both G4 and G5 in 'em.

Using conroe saves potentially hundreds per computer. You think the cost of having a different motherboard would cost more than that? The additional cost of a different motherboard is minimal, apple doesn't even have to do much design since they can just modify an intel design.

Yep, the prices would propably go up. But in return, the performance would also go up. Currently the low-end machine is 1x2Ghz dualcore. The new low-end would be 2xGhz dualcore which would propably significantly outperform the current quad-core machine for less money.

But many people don't want maximum performance, they are fine with settling for less and spending less money (just like apple has a cheaper dual G5 now...why don't they just go to three speeds of quad G5 and raise prices?) I'd love to see a mini tower, but if that doesn't happen, Conroe in the base model makes the most sense.

Why doesn't BMW try to compete with Dodge, and take their quality down a bit? They would be a lot more "competetive" then, right? maybe Genelec could just make a bit crappier speakers for less money so they would be "competetive" with Creative?

I'm not saying apple should bring "quality" down, to be honest I don't think the G5 tower is that great. In many ways it's inferior to the cheaper dell cases. I think that apple shouldn't waste money on making the box look pretty. My computing experience comes from the chips, and going with a plainer case isn't going to make things any crappier. If genelec was putting in cosmetic extras that didn't improve sound quality, then yes, I absolutely think they should leave those out and be more affordable. And I don't want rock-bottom prices, I just want prices that are competitive. I'm fine with apple charging more, it just shouldn't be exorbitantly so.

the cube was cheaper and the only thing that was different was the lack of pci slots.

and this brings us back to the fact that apple does not do a consumer powermac, it never has and the cube was the closest they came.

The cube started out at $1499, more than the imac. The fact that apple hasn't done a consumer powermac doesn't mean they won't in the future. After all, the mini came out of the blue, didn't it? And they HAVE had consumer models with slots in the past, I don't see why they can't do it again. I don't even really care about the form factor - they've had a $1499 powermac in the past and they should have one at that point or even cheaper again.

 

[jiggie2g]

At 3Ghz (or close to it) it might run too hot. While iMac has a bit more space than MBP has, you are basically suggesting using a CPU that over twice the heat-output of the Yonah in MBP (which already runs very hot). 25w vs. 65w.

And while Merom tops out at 2.33Ghz currently, it will scale up. Currently iMac has 1.83 and 2GHz Yonah. If Apple replaces them with 2 and 2.16Ghz Meroms, they would give their customers a nice speed-boost while still leaving them room to go up.

I think people here ar getting caught up in the Megahertz Myth again. A Conore E6300 at 1.86ghz is shown to overtake a X2 4800+ in most benchmarks and even approach an FX60 in some instances. the funny thing is most people where say they want an everyday machine that just works. so if that is the case then be happy with what apple gives you.

All this Conroe/Woodcrest/Merom bulsh*t is just Mac Fanboys wanting the biggest ePenises so they can brag about how powerful thier system is compared to a Dell XPS ...reguardless of the fact that they will ultimatley pay twice the price for that privilage. I mean c'mon even the AMD Fanboys at the other sites(maybe not Chris Tom at AMDZONE , he's an avid mac basher by the way) are conceding to Conroe.

What kills me is that if apple were to make an all woody line up for MacPro 90% of you fanboys wouldn't be able to afford one in the 1st place, just like when the Quad G5 came out. I say maybe 10 people in this entire forum actually own a Quad G5. So what this all comes down to at the end of the day is bragging rights. So u guys wanna pony up $4000 for a nicely equipped
Woody MacPro go right ahead and i will be here come Feb 07 with a Nicely equiped Kentsfield that cost me 1/3 the price and will still be laughting at u fools.

 

[milo]

All this Conroe/Woodcrest/Merom bulsh*t is just Mac Fanboys wanting the biggest ePenises so they can brag about how powerful thier system is compared to a Dell XPS ...

That's a funny comment comment coming from a guy who keeps bragging about how powerful his system is...

 

[Mord]

yonah has a tdp of 31W.

someone ban jiggy again for reasons i'd be banned for if i stated,

 

[jiggie2g]

That's a funny comment comment coming from a guy who keeps bragging about how powerful his system is...

Well Milo i'm a hardware Enthusiast , this is my hobby and part time job as I am a system builder for many people. I like to Overclock just like a guy likes to tune his sports car. Sorry but i believe in getting the maximum amount of performance for my dollar and if that means overclocking then fine. It's actually very fun.

The cube started out at $1499, more than the imac. The fact that apple hasn't done a consumer powermac doesn't mean they won't in the future. After all, the mini came out of the blue, didn't it? And they HAVE had consumer models with slots in the past, I don't see why they can't do it again. I don't even really care about the form factor - they've had a $1499 powermac in the past and they should have one at that point or even cheaper again.

Hate to break this to u Milo but Apple never has nor will it ever care about that segment of the market , as it is already saturated by Dell/HP/Gateway/Sony/eMachines/Lenovo , so even $1199 is kinda high end in the mid tower market. Computers in that price range already come with AM2 X2 4800+'s , 320GB HD's , 2GB DDR2 , DVD Burners , 9 in 1 cards readers , free 17in LCD's + Printers. Apple wil never be aple to compete in this market.
this is hopeless.

 

[Mord]

this is hopeless.

why couldn't you of just realized that, oh like about 5 pages back.

 

[BakedBeans]

Woody MacPro go right ahead and i will be here come Feb 07 with a Nicely equiped Kentsfield that cost me 1/3 the price and will still be laughting at u fools.

Thing is you will still be running a buggy, poorly designed operating system with a nasty, not to mention hot and noisy box of crap...

enjoy your green paper.

 

[jiggie2g]

why couldn't you just realized that, oh like about 5 pages back.

Hopeless for Apple to compete in that market is what i ment.

Thing is you will still be running a buggy, poorly designed operating system with a nasty, not to mention hot and noisy box of crap...

enjoy your green paper.

Insult me if u want , but don't insult my PC. I would put my PC against any G5 , i've heard the G5 at full load it ain't pretty. least we forget the hair dryer G4 towers.

I have 4 120mm Antec Tri cool fans in my Antec P180 case not to mention the 92mm tri cool fan on my Thermalright XP-90 Heatsink , plus another 120mm fan in my Antec TP 2.0 550 watt PSU. a Zalman VF700-cu heatsinkw/80mm fan on my 7800GT.

My System Idles in the Mid 30's celsius , load about 42-44c. so it is neither loud nor hot.

I have 2 XP Pro installations one in my , Athlon XP-M Desktop , and the other in the rig in my signature , and neither give me any problems rock soild installations. this is what happens when u use good components , same rules apply with cars , and consumer electronics. You build with junk u get junk.


Baked I think you're just mad cuz my PC $1200 PC will trash that $2499 G5 of yours in any benchmark. Enjoy that 6600 non GT ....lol

 

[Mord]

Hopeless for Apple to compete in that market is what i ment.

yes so thats what you've been trying to make out apple should do, well done you just contradicted yourself, and no doubt you'll just ignore this post and go on your merry way spouting crap.

 

[BakedBeans]

yes so thats what you've been trying to make out apple should do, well done you just contradicted yourself, and no doubt you'll just ignore this post and go on your merry way spouting crap.

Yeah, but apple can't compete (like they are trying to compete with the ***** market anyway) so lets talk more about how great his amazing pc box is that has never once crashed (because PC's dont crash)

 

[zero2dash]

Thing is you will still be running a buggy, poorly designed operating system with a nasty, not to mention hot and noisy box of crap...

enjoy your green paper.

LOL
You're funny.

How much did you pay for that G5 you got there?

Yeah...that's what I thought. 😛

Yeah, but apple can't compete (like they are trying to compete with the ***** market anyway) so lets talk more about how great his amazing pc box is that has never once crashed (because PC's dont crash)

I've experienced more software crashes in OSX than I have in Windows 2000 Pro or XP Pro.
That's just my experience though...

 

[BakedBeans]

LOL
You're funny.

How much did you pay for that G5 you got there?

Yeah...that's what I thought. 😛

What does it matter what I paid? I use it for work, I got it because I needed it and I will be getting the top of the line mac pro too, why? because I need it.

I would have paid double. I also wouldn't pay anything for a windows box that rattles and squeeks... then crashes.

I've experienced more software crashes in OSX than I have in Windows 2000 Pro or XP Pro.
That's just my experience though.

Of course you have 🙄

I run pro apps all day long and have never had a crash. the fact is that OS X is much much much more stable and reliable, that is why 80% of creative pro's use them

 

[zero2dash]

What does it matter what I paid? I use it for work, I got it because I needed it and I will be getting the top of the line mac pro too, why? because I need it.

I would have paid double. I also wouldn't pay anything for a windows box that rattles and squeeks... then crashes.

Touchy subject there eh fanboi? 😛

 

[gugy]

I do get it. It seems that YOU are not getting it.



Congratulations.



And those whose tools already are universal will gladly jump.



I don't care one bit about apps that can substityute Adobe's apps. What I did say that there's already tons of universal pro-apps out there. Not everyone lives and breathes Adobe.



And I'm talking about those who do not rely on Adobe. They do exist.



Where exactly have I said that they should switch to some other app? Hell, where have I said that they should buy the MacPro?



Where exactly have I made that claim? The issue here is that you live and breathe Adobe. Well, good for you. There are others that do not, and they would be more than happy to switch to MacPro the moment it's released. We were talking about MacPro's when you basically asked "well, what about Adobe?". Well, what about it? Why does everything have to be about Adobe, when the fact is that macs are used for zillion other things besides running Photoshop?

Evangelion, I am so sorry for you.

You really don't get it. Sad thing.

I started the whole discussion with you because you said professionals would jump right away on the new Intel Mac Pro without caring for Adobe apps. I strongly disagreed because the fact I have been in the industry for many years and make my living depending on Apple and Adobe I can guarantee you that anybody who really depends on Adobe (lots of people by the way) will wait for Universal apps from Adobe. Speed is crucial for professionals. Nobody would like to use Rosetta just for the sake to have the latest Apple machine. This people will wait and the the whole set when it's ready for showtime.

If you DO NOT rely on Adobe apps and the apps you need are universal then sure, why not jump in on the Intel Mac Pro when it's launch.

Thanks for congratulating me for being a professional. You might be a student your maybe something else and have just no clue what you are talking about. I can see that by the amount of people arguing and disagreeing with you on this thread.
Meanwhile, you are the only person disagreeing with me. So that just prove my point of how clueless you are.

 

[Eidorian]

How much did you pay for that G5 you got there?

Wait, why does it matter to you how much THEY paid for it? Was it your money?

It bugs me how many custom PC build go on about how much they saved on their machines. You didn't buy the Power Mac did you? Why complain when someone does?