BakedBeans
macrumors 68040
wwworry said:
Except that the house you are talking about has got no doors, so people can walk in and take all your stuff.
Not to mention the need to rebuild your house about once a month.
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Mac Pro and Woodcrest: Confirmed?
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Except that the house you are talking about has got no doors, so people can walk in and take all your stuff.
Not to mention the need to rebuild your house about once a month.
Eidorian
macrumors Penryn
jiggie2g said:
Well, considering apple had a tower at that price point in the past, they obviously were interested at one point. I think now that they have more flexibility because of the intel chips and mobos they may consider that segment again.
Regardless of what the PC companies are shipping, Apple can still ship a machine in that segment. Obviously it's not going to sell to PC users who only care about the lowest price, but there are people who want to run OSX who'd be ecstatic. (I do think apple could ship a conroe for $1199 or less and make their usual markup)
We're both speculating at this point. We'll know who was right when apple ships new machines (for the record, if Apple does come out with a mini tower, I think it will probably be some time after the pro towers are released).
jiggie2g said:
I think you can put your pants back on now...
gugy said:
No, you STILL don't get it. He's only talking about people who don't use adobe software. NOT adobe users switching to something else. MANY people do pro work without touching adobe. Especially people who don't do graphics work. Not every person making a living on a mac is a graphics guy. And rosetta??? He never even mentioned it, why bring it up?
Read his post again, for the most part you're not even disagreeing with him.
Silentwave said:
Found them, thanks. So why don't those machines turn up when you search the dell site for those cpu's? You can buy these in single configurations, but when conroes ship I can't imagine they won't be considerably cheaper. Single woodcrest at 1.6 is $2200. Ouch. Nobody's going to say with a straight face that a conroe at the same speed will cost that much.
Eidorian said:
Musicians running logic will line up around the block. The new towers will smoke on Logic.
Idiot or just have different interests?
I like to build my own computer just like many Windows people. I built my own Mac IIfx many years ago. Normally it is very hard to get Mac motherboards, but at that time there was upgrades available from the Macc II to Mac IIx to the MacIIfx. Apple had a requiremen that you had a Mac II or IIx to trade for the IIfx motherboard. I purchased my motherboard from a used Mac supplier in LA. I did this because I like to build my own computer. I started ut with building my own Heath-Kit.
I'm sure that many other Mac User's would like to build their own Mac's. :This may be part of the excitement of upgrading your processor & adding different cards to the system. You can always purchase a PCI buss expansion board, buy your case, power supply, cards, cables, fans, screws & other such things & have your fun & use a Mac also.
If I would ever get a Windows computer it would be for the fun of building my own system again. Windows motherboards have just about as much on them as a Mac motherboard does. The processor may be about the only difference. With few exceptions most Macs must be purchased as a complete unit. Sometimes used equipment can be purchased by the part. Many times boards can only be sold without ROMs. That means you are able to fix an old system, but not start from scratch because of those TOMs.
When people start talking about having this CPU or that CPU or changing your CPU, the talk will start about building your own system. I just wish that more Mac people could have the enjoyment of building their own Mac. The money savings is always a questionable item because most people are not comparing Apples with Apples, but probably Oranges with Peaches or some other thing.
Forget about the differences other people have & remember we're all computer users & for the most part all Mac computer users.
Bill the TaxMan
wwworry said:
I like to build my own computer just like many Windows people. I built my own Mac IIfx many years ago. Normally it is very hard to get Mac motherboards, but at that time there was upgrades available from the Macc II to Mac IIx to the MacIIfx. Apple had a requiremen that you had a Mac II or IIx to trade for the IIfx motherboard. I purchased my motherboard from a used Mac supplier in LA. I did this because I like to build my own computer. I started ut with building my own Heath-Kit.
I'm sure that many other Mac User's would like to build their own Mac's. :This may be part of the excitement of upgrading your processor & adding different cards to the system. You can always purchase a PCI buss expansion board, buy your case, power supply, cards, cables, fans, screws & other such things & have your fun & use a Mac also.
If I would ever get a Windows computer it would be for the fun of building my own system again. Windows motherboards have just about as much on them as a Mac motherboard does. The processor may be about the only difference. With few exceptions most Macs must be purchased as a complete unit. Sometimes used equipment can be purchased by the part. Many times boards can only be sold without ROMs. That means you are able to fix an old system, but not start from scratch because of those TOMs.
When people start talking about having this CPU or that CPU or changing your CPU, the talk will start about building your own system. I just wish that more Mac people could have the enjoyment of building their own Mac. The money savings is always a questionable item because most people are not comparing Apples with Apples, but probably Oranges with Peaches or some other thing.
Forget about the differences other people have & remember we're all computer users & for the most part all Mac computer users.
Bill the TaxMan
gugy
macrumors 601
milo said:
Thanks for your wise opinion!🙄
Please take the time and read all the posts before making a comment.
The issue between me and Evangelion is that he believes that we can ditch Adobe apps for other ones. so there is no need to wait for Adobe universal apps in order to persuade professionals to switch to the new Mac Pro.
He's wrong, because:
first there is not substitute (same level) for some of those apps.
second, most people do not want to learn new software.
third, Adobe already committed to bring universal apps, probably by next year and
fourth there is a great integration between Photoshop, After Effects, Illustrator, etc. That's something very important for workflow.
Rossetta is good, but I would not put my life counting on it during a major deadline.
I already mentioned that we are talking specific about Adobe apps. For those who do not need those apps, I do agree that switching to the new Mac Pro now is not a bad idea.
So, sorry Milo, you don't get it because you did not take the time to read it.
Woodcrest (even a single Woodcrest in the low end) makes perfect sense because it has a higher memory bandwidth than Conroe. Surprised people ignore that point. Hence it is perfect for a workstation-class system.
That also differentiates it from the consumer iMac (for which Conroe is the obvious choice as it will be less expensive than using a notbook processor and thus allow Apple to get higher margins out of the iMac while also increasing the processor and memory speed over and above what is on offer at the moment).
Apple vs. build-your-own costs are moot. I've built my own systems in the past. Yup you can put some inexpensive rigs together. But how much is your time worth? Its like the argument that Linux is free. True only if your time is worthless. The money I make from writing or Illustrator work very quickly eliminates what I would have saved spending time cobbeling together my own hardware. The attraction of having a machine that "just works" and lets me get "stuff done" is very compelling because my time is valuable and I have deadlines to work to.
Want to build your own system? More power to you. Been there. Done that. Don't have the time for all of that now I'm doing professional work. Lots of people don't have the time (or desire) to futz around with the tech. They just want to get on and "do things". A computer is a means to an end. Not an end in itself.
That also differentiates it from the consumer iMac (for which Conroe is the obvious choice as it will be less expensive than using a notbook processor and thus allow Apple to get higher margins out of the iMac while also increasing the processor and memory speed over and above what is on offer at the moment).
Apple vs. build-your-own costs are moot. I've built my own systems in the past. Yup you can put some inexpensive rigs together. But how much is your time worth? Its like the argument that Linux is free. True only if your time is worthless. The money I make from writing or Illustrator work very quickly eliminates what I would have saved spending time cobbeling together my own hardware. The attraction of having a machine that "just works" and lets me get "stuff done" is very compelling because my time is valuable and I have deadlines to work to.
Want to build your own system? More power to you. Been there. Done that. Don't have the time for all of that now I'm doing professional work. Lots of people don't have the time (or desire) to futz around with the tech. They just want to get on and "do things". A computer is a means to an end. Not an end in itself.
THX1139
macrumors 68000
Evangelion said:
You mean hobbists or web surfers? People who use their Macs for email, iTunes and Bit Torrent? Okay... however, don't tell me that those same users need Woodcrest or want to buy Quad machines. You are missing the point. The majority target market for high-end machines are people who do real work for money (rendering and image processing). Graphic designers and anyone in the creative industry, those folks all use Adobe. When you look at all professional users who buy highend, you will find a very tiny percent that don't use Adobe. So when Apple releases an all Woodcrest line, they will only be serving a minisule portion of the user base (you and 2 other people). That's one reason that I suspect they may hold off on Woodcrest and go entirely Conroe until 2007, then Quad with Kentsfield 1st quarter '07.
Evangelion said:
I don't think anyone has complained to Apple. It's clearly Adobe's fault for not migrating to X-code when they first got notice from Apple. Switching to UB is only easy if your code has been written in X-code, and that is why you have certain companies that are lagging. It's because they have old legacy code that doesn't port over without spending a lot of resources. Developers such as Luxology etc. got their UB's out really fast because they have recent code. Modo is only 2 years old whereas Photoshop is pushing 15 years. You don't take an application that is over a decade old and change it's base code overnight! And re-writing a windows version to run on OSX has it's own set of problems. So yes, it is THAT hard.
It's not just Adobe that's dragging on UB versions, there are many other major developers that are behind on porting. Newtek, Quark, Autodesk (Maya) just to name a few.
I do agree with you that Apple will need to keep at least the G5 Quad in the line-up until 07. Or maybe split the line-up into two complete lines of PPC and Intel until Adobe gets ported. However, they should drop the price unless their arrogance makes then think it's okay to continue charging premium for legacy hardware. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if they charge the same as new Macpros just to push purchasers towards Intel. Although, they are probably making a steal on selling that old PPC hardware!
THX1139
macrumors 68000
gugy said:
Yeah, and not to mention the cost to switch to another software IF one was available. Think of all the designers who use Photoshop or inDesign... or even Quark. All of the print houses and agencies that rely on Adobe products. Millions of users world-wide. How many of them are going to dump money into new systems that run slower or not at all? The only hope is they run as fast under rosetta on Woodcrest/Conroe... or the pro machines are not going to sell in volume until next year. If anything, this migration might push studios towards buying PC's to avoid the software fiasco.
Actually, if you think about it... legacy software might be one reason you don't see Apple in a hurry to get a Woodcrest machine out there. The chips are available... why not the machine? Don't tell me they are waiting for WWDC. I think they are biding their time waiting for Adobe. Sure, we will see something in August, but unless it runs legacy creative software faster than G5, it will be a temporary solution. Just like they did with the first MBP and Yonah. A simple stop-gap so they could toot their horns to say the hardware migration was ahead of schedule.
A lot of my collegues say they aren't buying Apple until 2007 and that's only if they like what happens with Adobe CS3. I'm sure there are many others that feel the same way.
Eidorian said:
New MBPs either late august or early sept. as the new chips dont come out till w/o aug. 22.
milo said:
Well the dell machine does have higher starting RAM than we're used to, at least the one I configged. I have a feeling Apple will get some good prices. Whatever the case, I'm sure the mac pro will be competitive compared to comparable computers. Maybe we'll even see a woodcrest machine continue on even when Clovertown comes out to be a cheaper version, assuming the line goes all woodcrest. I'm wondering how much the prices of the RAM will influence their decision. If it benefits them to have all sever and workstations using FB-DIMM, they'll be more likely to stay all woodcrest at the MPs. If they can still save money using Conroe (2.66 or possibly 2.93/3.2 XEs) then that will show up. Maybe they should use one high end conroe for the base model, and have two woodies.
hulugu
macrumors 68000
wwworry said:
Ahh, that's perfect. What jiggie2g fails to notice is some of us have better things to do than build our computers. Frankly, I wish I had the time to even watch TV much less buy one; I'm too damned busy helping people sort out hosed up Windows installations.
DeepIn2U
macrumors G5
Well us that are still dreaming, saving up to OWN a Mac - like me - realize what those that have always OWNED a Mac and barely go day to day FULLY on Windows know what Windows lacks.
1) efficient use of screen real-estate; 1 title bar that suits the running app.
2) the ability to launch an app WITHOUT being forced to use it Front & Center & Active when typing or using another app ALREADY running. I hear all the time "more apps for windows" but I get so fustrated, even Nix users at my workplace that curse & swear about how an app - a FULLY coded & implemented BUSINESS app gets bogged down or crashes so easily; or the limitation f a overflowed buffer of copy/paste in WinXP (I dont see this on my home PC; but I dont copy & paste 8+ lines of text every 8-12 min for 8hrs a day either).
3) when buying a more expensive Mac you're slightly paying for the free iLife that comes with it. Face it if you dont need iLife or use a WinXP PC for features similar to what iLife uses then you've got another NEED or Ajenda for using your WinXP machine/Nix machine. PPL buy a Mac - most consumers - to utilize its ability to pull it out of the box power it up and BAM xfer WinXP/OS X/OS 9 saved files of their last comp to the new MAC to get working on those files within the first 15mins-30mins; not to spend that time going through WiFi settings and ISP settings and monitor settings and gaming settings etc etc.
4) For WinXP users to faithfully appreciate what the Mac OS X is about I seriously suggest going windows COLD-Turkey on JUST OS X for 3 months. Keyboard shortcuts, HDD navigating, Chatting, music composition, light photo editing, emailing (unless you heavily use BES/Exchage Server MAPI email), Audio editing/xfering listening etc then you'll abandon OS X before giving it a fair try. Within the last of the 3 months you'll find alternatives to the apps you'd personally use on a day to day basis that ISNT business related.
I liked for pricing to be within $700CAN of a comparably configured WinXP machine from Apple - but I know what I want out of my daily computing needs and what my family needs and want out of a computer and their entertainment. But mostly how my children can grow and expand their horizons with what I've seen their peers do on the WinXP machine (chat, play games, surf the Internet, edit photos, listening to WMP10/11Beta OR iTunes and transfer music to their iPod). What I DONT see my eldest child's peers do is coding web pages, drawing on a tablet to create cartoons/pics to share, learning the piano with a keyboard, or learning to play guitar and creating songs. REGARDLESS of in the box shipped hardware or not. I'm thinking about the future and creating apps for the Mac community is still virtually untapped.
1) efficient use of screen real-estate; 1 title bar that suits the running app.
2) the ability to launch an app WITHOUT being forced to use it Front & Center & Active when typing or using another app ALREADY running. I hear all the time "more apps for windows" but I get so fustrated, even Nix users at my workplace that curse & swear about how an app - a FULLY coded & implemented BUSINESS app gets bogged down or crashes so easily; or the limitation f a overflowed buffer of copy/paste in WinXP (I dont see this on my home PC; but I dont copy & paste 8+ lines of text every 8-12 min for 8hrs a day either).
3) when buying a more expensive Mac you're slightly paying for the free iLife that comes with it. Face it if you dont need iLife or use a WinXP PC for features similar to what iLife uses then you've got another NEED or Ajenda for using your WinXP machine/Nix machine. PPL buy a Mac - most consumers - to utilize its ability to pull it out of the box power it up and BAM xfer WinXP/OS X/OS 9 saved files of their last comp to the new MAC to get working on those files within the first 15mins-30mins; not to spend that time going through WiFi settings and ISP settings and monitor settings and gaming settings etc etc.
4) For WinXP users to faithfully appreciate what the Mac OS X is about I seriously suggest going windows COLD-Turkey on JUST OS X for 3 months. Keyboard shortcuts, HDD navigating, Chatting, music composition, light photo editing, emailing (unless you heavily use BES/Exchage Server MAPI email), Audio editing/xfering listening etc then you'll abandon OS X before giving it a fair try. Within the last of the 3 months you'll find alternatives to the apps you'd personally use on a day to day basis that ISNT business related.
I liked for pricing to be within $700CAN of a comparably configured WinXP machine from Apple - but I know what I want out of my daily computing needs and what my family needs and want out of a computer and their entertainment. But mostly how my children can grow and expand their horizons with what I've seen their peers do on the WinXP machine (chat, play games, surf the Internet, edit photos, listening to WMP10/11Beta OR iTunes and transfer music to their iPod). What I DONT see my eldest child's peers do is coding web pages, drawing on a tablet to create cartoons/pics to share, learning the piano with a keyboard, or learning to play guitar and creating songs. REGARDLESS of in the box shipped hardware or not. I'm thinking about the future and creating apps for the Mac community is still virtually untapped.
JFreak
macrumors 68040
THX1139 said:
You know this does not make sense, don't you?
Print houses and such are very lazy to upgrade anything at all, so now that they know there's a big transition coming, they're STOCKPILING current computers if they see that they need to buy some during the next year or two. Why? Because they fear the change. They'd rather upgrade now and sit tight until the transition is complete, and then upgrade again once somebody else has tried if it works or not. They're not the ones who would be first in line to buy new Intel macs. And that's why they most certainly are not the ones who would be buying Intel pc's as long as they are able to choose.
It is very common to skip every other software version. Many print houses and freelancers have been very satisfied with the Adobe CS2 software and have no difficulties whatsoever in sticking with it until CS4 comes out; and when it comes in roughly 2009, they most certainly have no difficulties in buying new systems as they have been saving lots of money in the waiting game.
THX1139 said:
They are not waiting for Adobe, that's for sure. If they were, they could very well be introducing new Intel-based Mac Pro's whenever they wish, and keep selling the Quad-G5 as long as customers want to buy.
AidenShaw
macrumors P6
idle would be interesting too
One of the strong points of the Core architectures is the ability to reduce power consumption when idle.
This is especially nice for laptops and constrained systems (iMacIntel, MiniMacIntel) because in the typical case the CPU is generating much less than TDP heat, and therefore fans can be slower or off for more of the time.
I'd like to see the "idle CPU" system power consumption as well.Hector said:
One of the strong points of the Core architectures is the ability to reduce power consumption when idle.
This is especially nice for laptops and constrained systems (iMacIntel, MiniMacIntel) because in the typical case the CPU is generating much less than TDP heat, and therefore fans can be slower or off for more of the time.
gugy said:
I've absolutely read every last post in this thread, and I absolutely get it. I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble comprehending, have YOU read all the posts?
Evangelion has merely said that many users never used adobe apps in the first place, those users that have universal apps already would love to see intel towers asap.
Where exactly did he say that adobe users could just ditch other apps? Give me a quote. In fact, he has said multiple times that adobe users would be best waiting for the universal version before buying intel boxes.
Go back and read the last post you replied to. He said that users of OTHER APPS don't need adobe, and made NO mention of adobe users switching. Why are you so confused about this?
Here's a little something to jog your memory:
Evangelion said:
Does that ring a bell? Notice how that completely agrees with what I've been saying. Maybe you should go back and read the thread again.
MacsAttack said:
People do not ignore that point, it has been acknowledged numerous times. It's just not much of an advantage for the additional cost. As someone else pointed out, on these systems the memory bandwidth is not the bottleneck and benchmarks have failed to saturate even the "slower" bus. If single woodcrest is really faster than single conroe, show us a benchmark demonstrating that.
THX1139 said:
Seriously, you think the only pro users running macs are graphics folk? Really? Like there aren't any people doing audio/music on macs? Or any other use that requires heavy processing power? It kills me that graphics guys are so self-important that they think the world revolves around them.
Not to mention all the users running FCS apps in multi-computer environments. Makes perfect sense to get some intel towers to run the FCS apps while running non-universal apps on quad G5's.
THX1139 said:
Except that the Vista fiasco has the potential of being even worse.
AidenShaw
macrumors P6
Things are different with Intel....
Not only is milo asking a question about how an unreleased CPU performs - there's a good chance that someone might find the published results!
Imagine asking a similar question about an unreleased PPC chip - that would be absurd!
</tangent>
This question highlights one of the differences with having Intel as a supplier - you know what's coming.milo said:
Not only is milo asking a question about how an unreleased CPU performs - there's a good chance that someone might find the published results!
Imagine asking a similar question about an unreleased PPC chip - that would be absurd!
</tangent>
gugy
macrumors 601
milo said:
Thanks Milo, once again you just show me your ignorance and lack of taking the time to read posts before commenting on them.
I not going to repeat what I have said before to explain to you my issue with Evangelion. so I suggest you go back and read it. Maybe if you do so you will once and for all get it.
I am doing that in respect of MacRumors readers.
Cheers