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I don't think it is going to be quite that cheap to get 1 TB. Looks like you basically took the number to upgrade to 512 GB and just doubled it.

Actually, no. If you look at the first item on his list, it only differs from the base $3999 model by the upgrade from 256GB to 1TB, so that must account for the difference in price, which is as I posted.

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OK, never mind, I didn't notice that he actually had a 1 TB option in the price list, so obviously that's where you got the number.

Well, I was planning on getting the 1 TB option, so it will be nice if that really is the price; I don't understand why it is so much cheaper than it is on the iMac, though.

Heh, our posts crossed. Yeah, it's $800 to do that on the iMac so I am also surprised at the $560 figure, if it's accurate.

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This is pure, 100% unfounded speculation, but I'm wondering whether the markup on the CPU options is allowing them to reduce the markup on the other upgrades like storage and RAM.
 
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So... your PARENTS represent 95% of the public????? ALL the games they buy run just fine on a 2008 machine? LOL. What games are they buying? Cribbage???

I can't even take your post seriously at this point.

Where's the logic? Boot Camp is making a LOT of sales just to play Windows games. Some of us would PREFER to NOT have to buy Windows and reboot out of OSX just to play a game because the gaming experience sucks in OSX. It would be better to make gaming in OSX better.


My current Mac Mini is very fast CPU-wise.

It's why a Hackintosh IS the ONLY viable option for most Mac users that want a good gaming experience without having to own two separate computers at this point.

A high-end Hackintosh could let you stay in OSX for gaming probably 30-60% of the time depending on your taste in games (i.e. at a certain frame rate, even less efficient drivers, etc. don't mean much).


Apple ditched Express port expansion on the 15" Models because like you, they believed no one wanted any expansion except a cheesy SD card. What a load. I can now use external USB 3.0 drives to work with Logic Pro on that machine and the 2010 models are SOL.

So, Apple generally licensed Macs out back then and it failed. Why does that mean it would fail today? They can simply have more control over the end product (e.g. they have to approve designs and final products before they are released and assure no crap comes out AND they can limit models only to those markets like an "XMac" game/desktop power machine.)

It would be a simple matter for someone already making PCs to adapt one to EFI and throw together an XMac for next to nothing plus the license fee. I recall a start-up company wanted to do just that (minus the license it seems) and Apple jumped all over them. Why? They didn't want to make such machines. They were afraid they'd lose sales? So license the darn things and get money for nothing.

They Ditched Express port was ditched as it was woefully slow. Oversized and and now Dead in the water.

Apple would not licence anything again BECAUSE of that failure. The company is a Complete pipeline and had become massively successful at that. The second the allow MS style anyone can build. THEY have to support it. They have to make sure drivers work and when they don't... you have windows Vista.

Psystar are the company you are talking about and they broke every single IP under the Sun. Even the Rebel-EFI Boot Rom was stolen. So zero sympathies there.

You missed my point completely about my parents. I am saying that a large percentage of people DO just use desktops All in ones computers for email and therefore only chop in their computer every 3+ year at most. And well they are the ones that never visit Macrumors.

And of course there are lot of Gamers that want a better and faster machine than an iMac/mini. This is not one Apple's core market. Never has been. They do bleeding edge stuff now and again and then the competition comes along and betters it in the 6 months... then Apple bring out the next one and the cycle continues.

And people will always bring up the fact that this is Bah... it's NOT a 24-Core!?! Its Rubbish. There have been 24 Cores Win PCs for 18 months.... There is a very good reason Apple are not doing them - Go look at Boxx tech for a 24 core... they start at $20K The CPUs alone are $3K+ each.
 
I'm thinking perhaps that's ALL hardware used for graphics. Because this forecast indicates a total size of the PC market, including servers and tablets and everything in between of $383 billion in 2016

http://www.etforecasts.com/products/ES_pcww1203.htm

I think if there was large profit potential for Apple there, they wouldn't have neglected the market as long as they have.

I quoted that as you had indicated in your OP that workstations were a tiny niche part of the market. Still a large proportion of the 30+% of the total market from your figures.

The report in Maximum PC was that due to the upsurge in the Visualisation market for CAD/CAM, part design, aviation, healthcare etc etc this is actually actually driving an uplift in the graphics industry.....but you removed that part.

All professionals in the above market buy out of the box solutions for office based work. These are workstations primarily. I'm deliberately ignoring the photo & video market as they are another avenue for the nMP. I work in the GIS & infrastructure market and all the solutions are Workstation based. More and more of these workstations are arriving on engineers desks, rather than the select few modellers of old, to be used throughout the design cycle.

Personally, I believe that Apple are at the start of an upswing in this area of the PC market at the right time and have moved the market forward with this form factor, as all the above users are sat on existing fibre Ethernet storage and simply don't need the internal storage solutions that the old box gave. Hence the radicle form factor redesign. A similar paradigm shift from netbook to tablet in the consumer market.

Again, this is a personal remark, I can see many design and engineering businesses looking at today's front page pricing for this system - https://www.macrumors.com/2013/12/16/mac-pro-build-to-order-upgrade-pricing-revealed/ - and thinking that they may invest in this powerful machine to the detriment of the PC workstation. The main other factor is if the likes of Autodesk and Bentley move into the OSX market to support this, or the Bootcamp Win solutions I use, are still as secure in the nMP and as fast using, optimised drivers for the Apple internals.

I suppose my concern over the nMP, going back to the sentiment in your OP, is that Apple are again to early to market with a radicle design - ala nEXT and the cube - and the nMP flounders because of that. That would be a shame, as who else would take this gamble in the volume market- Dell, HP.....never in a million years. The only possible business with the R&D and financial clout would be Samsung that could innovate like this.....and I'm pretty sure they are out of the PC market completely. Laptops only now, so they can flog they're screens.
 
I quoted that as you had indicated in your OP that workstations were a tiny niche part of the market. Still a large proportion of the 30+% of the total market from your figures.

The figures I quotes don't break out workstations at all. They just give the size of the entire market - and given that relatively small size, I doubt that the workstation market is as large as the figures you quote suggest.

Of course the problem is they're not your numbers or my numbers and we have no way to determine the accuracy of them and if it's even an apples to apples comparison.

I didn't remove that part - I left what I was directly addressing. I have no use for people who insist on quoting an entire message so they can make a small reply to it.
 
Comparable Price

In 1993 my Quadra650 (12 MB RAM/512k VRAM/230MB HD) cost me $2300. That machine is still running, used for giant Agfa Tabloid scanner.

Adjusted for inflation, it would be $3700 today.

Oh yeah, I am so getting one of these!
 
Professionals use other computers besides the Mac Pro don't you know?

You're right. They use Windows computers. ;)

CNET?!? Other websites exists too. Just on Yahoo's shopping website listed 55 Displayport monitors. You don't have to buy Apples adapter, third party ones exist too.

Oh boy. How many have it at Best Buy? :rolleyes:

Displayport is not an Apple standard as well as Thunderport. Mini Display ports are used because it certainly fits much better then using a big, full sized connectors with a thick, heavy cable to things such as laptops.

Mini IS by Apple and it purposely screwed with an existing standard (DP). As if things weren't confused enough with a new standard trying to take hold, along comes Apple and jumbles it up with more adapters.... oh boy.

We are not seeing many PC's use it primarily most consumers are not willing to pay for top of the line peripherals it was designed to use. Thats why we are more likely to see it on workstations Such as HP.

If that's your logic, fine. WTF do all Macs have it, then? *MOST* Mac users are NOT professionals, just consumers also. Oh wait. You're saying most Mac users are computer illiterate drones that are willing to pay a small fortune for overpriced hardware? I get it now. Hey, just maybe you are right, after all. :p

Acer dropped Thunderbolt because they are primarily a budget computer.

And WTF is a Mac Mini? A Pro workstation? :rolleyes:

And just because all Macs now have Thunderbolt that doesn't mean people are using it. Sadly, it's quite the opposite. It's something that increases the price of a Mac, yet has no use for most people. Even if it's on-chip, that space would be better served with either dual-function ports (the whole reason Sony wanted a USB connector) or more on-board USB 3.0 ports that actually have real-world use by most people.

USB 3 was out for years prior to Thunderbolt.

All the more reason to get Thunderbolt adoption going as fast as possible. You just keep making my points for me. Keep trying to polish a turd and you still end up with a turd, oddly enough.

If you learned anything from Firewire...even though it was slower then USB 2.0...it was still faster in real world applications. USB 2.0 was dependent to the CPU where Firewire was not.

So now you're comparing USB 3.0 to USB 2.0? The whole point of USB 3.0 is get rid of USB 2.0's limitations and increase the speed. The whole point of Thunderbolt is to try and bleed money from the USB STANDARD, just like HD-DVD Vs. Blu-Ray instead of cooperating for the benefit of all. Yeah, that REALLY benefits the public with competing standards. No, it benefits Intel to try and corner as much market as possible.

Thats why professionals used Firewire rather then USB 2.0.

I could play your game and point out that professionals used USB also (I mean they used Firewire for what, just to start with, your argument includes none of that information), but what would be the point? USB 3.0 is more than adequate for most professional uses and more to the point, WHAT professionals on the Mac platform? How many are left after Apple's blunders? There was the whole Final Cut X thing that sent many a Pro walking and scratching their heads on how Apple could possibly be so unbelievably STUPID to release such a POS that took so many steps backwards it was unreal. They dumped their server market (you know the real one with rack mount servers that actually are used by professionals, not giant towers or small pizza boxes that aren't). They delayed Logic updates for YEARS because Pros aren't a priority for them. And of course, the Mac Pro has been just rotting on the shelf now with outdated crap in in it and is finally going to be replaced by an overpriced trash can with no internal expansion and slower external expansion than the former Mac Pro had half a decade ago. Yeah, Apple is REALLY trying hard to help Pros.

Oh wait. Your definition of a "Pro" is Mike Smith down the street doing wedding videos with iMovie or Jack Black doing beat arrangements with Garage Band. Whoa, I was totally off-based there. Yeah, the Mac ROCKS for "Professionals". Whoo-hoo! :D

Ahem...Thunderbolt is a Intel format, not an Apple one. It was Intels decision to keep it a wired connection rather then optical. At least for the time being. Seems you to failed to read the article you posted accurately ...even the title.

Yeah, keep talking down while ignoring actual history rather than your imaginary one. Light Peak was a JOINT venture between Apple and Intel. It was Apple that dictated the format to Intel (Apple is responsible for on-chip graphics improving so much with Intel as well, BTW since they have been asking for it). What Intel came up with was too expensive for a consumer computer like a Macintosh and so they went back to Copper so Steve could put it in the entire Mac line. Steve simultaneously wanted exclusive access (to feed his ego) and yet wanted it to be a world standard and even though those two things were at odds with each other, he figured a one year jump start over PCs would be good enough. Unfortunately, that one year exclusive ensured that Thunderbolt would never be anything more than a tiny niche format. In early 2011, USB 3.0 was not well entrenched yet and a far superior TB might have had a shot, but it was not superior enough to justify the costs and the lack of distribution ensured it would go nowhere until at least 2012 and by then most PC makers decided it was pointless, especially with USB 3.0 on-chip (free) by 2012. TB is a dead format except for a tiny niche of Pros that need the most extreme disk transfers possible. Ironically, those are the same people that would have been willing to pay through the nose for a far superior version of TB with optical only. It is precisely because Apple chose to push TB as a consumer format that it is an undeniable failure. It is something that should have only appeared on the Mac Pro and perhaps the top-end Macbook Pro and it should have been 40GBps minimum to start PER CHANNEL. At that speed, one could make an argument for an internal expansion-less Mac Pro and there would be no doubt that the format meant PRO.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/26/exclusive-apple-dictated-light-peak-creation-to-intel-could-be/

The average mom & pop who buy this machine don't care much about specs or even know what they mean. Just that they want it faster then last years model.

The average mom & pop buy Windows machines, not Macs. :rolleyes:

I absolutely disagree with you. Many people love the all in one solution that the iMac brings. Plug in one device with wireless mouse and keyboard and away you go.

Define "many". Don't forget how tiny the Mac market is to begin with and how UNPOPULAR all-in-ones are in the Windows world.

Away you go with what? No backup hard drive? Oh wait. You need another external box. More storage? Yet more boxes. A way to connect your audio gear? More external boxes. At some point, one has to wonder how a computer designed to defeat desktop clutter manages to create 5x the clutter of conventional tower that sits under the desk and holds everything needed inside of it.

They Ditched Express port was ditched as it was woefully slow. Oversized and and now Dead in the water.

Well, compared to the SD card reader that replaced it, I can't agree with your logic there (i.e. it's fast enough that my USB 3 card in my 2008 MBP can do sustained reads at over 110MB/sec, which is the limit of the drive I have (a far cry better than either the FW800 port or even Gigabit Ethernet in real-world speeds and those are the computer's only two other options. No 2010 MBP other than 17" can match it under any circumstance so I'd hardly call it "dead in the water". Apple had the option of updating it to the latest expansion standards or even just including eSata ports. There are Pros to this day that can't believe the new Mac Pro doesn't have any eStata ports on it. And that's the problem. Apple expects people to adapt to their hardware rather than their hardware serving existing professionals. And that just means even more money and more reasons NOT to go with Apple for their new machine.
 
You're right. They use Windows computers.

Of course I meant professionals also use iMac, MacBook Pro ect. But I understand you still don't have a better reply.

Oh boy. How many have it at Best Buy?

Just because they don't have them at BestBuy does not mean they don't exist.



Mini IS by Apple and it purposely screwed with an existing standard (DP). As if things weren't confused enough with a new standard trying to take hold, along comes Apple and jumbles it up with more adapters.... oh boy.

Adapters are not just an Apple thing. Hundreds of adapters for every kind of standard and protocol you can think of. If your so confused you should avoid them.




So now you're comparing USB 3.0 to USB 2.0? The whole point of USB 3.0 is get rid of USB 2.0's limitations and increase the speed. The whole point of Thunderbolt is to try and bleed money from the USB STANDARD, just like HD-DVD Vs. Blu-Ray instead of cooperating for the benefit of all. Yeah, that REALLY benefits the public with competing standards. No, it benefits Intel to try and corner as much market as possible.

Hello?!? You wanted to talk about the relevancy of Firewire at a time USB 3.0 didn't exist, so its comparable to USB 2.0


Yeah, keep talking down while ignoring actual history rather than your imaginary one. Light Peak was a JOINT venture between Apple and Intel.

But you still seem to miss the fact Intel still owns and has all intellectual property rights to Thunderbolt technology. Not Apple


Steve simultaneously wanted exclusive access (to feed his ego) and yet wanted it to be a world standard and even though those two things were at odds with each other, he figured a one year jump start over PCs would be good enough.



In early 2011, USB 3.0 was not well entrenched yet and a far superior TB might have had a shot, but it was not superior enough to justify the costs and the lack of distribution ensured it would go nowhere until at least 2012 and by then most PC makers decided it was pointless, especially with USB 3.0 on-chip (free) by 2012.


Intel also said Thunderbolt was never meant to replace USB 3.0. Next...



TB is a dead format except for a tiny niche of Pros that need the most extreme disk transfers possible. Ironically, those are the same people that would have been willing to pay through the nose for a far superior version of TB with optical only. It is precisely because Apple chose to push TB as a consumer format that it is an undeniable failure. It is something that should have only appeared on the Mac Pro and perhaps the top-end Macbook Pro and it should have been 40GBps minimum to start PER CHANNEL. At that speed, one could make an argument for an internal expansion-less Mac Pro and there would be no doubt that the format meant PRO.

Yet, manufactures continue to make hardware for Thunderbolt every year. Over 133 PC motherboards, laptops and peripheral devices use Thunderbolt technology and its growing. Its not getting smaller, its getting larger. Does not seem like a dead format to me.
 
Just because they don't have them at BestBuy does not mean they don't exist.

Yeah, predictable replies and so there's no point in arguing against a commercial. Enjoy Thunderbolt. You're probably one of the very few that do.

Speaking of Thunderbolt, I was hoping this update would fix the inability of my MBAir to connect to my Thunderbolt display. Didn't happen. Display is still a REALLY expensive paperweight.

I see this is another happy Thunderbolt customer (from the 10.9.1 thread).
 
MacRumors reporting really dropping the ball here. No mention of the fact that the nMP's are arriving at resellers the last 2 days. :rolleyes:
 
The target audience didn't want this form factor nonsense. Sure the old mac pro was a little too big, but this trash can shaped case is too small. A compact/mid size tower would have been a much better compromise between the old and new.

Since when has Apple been about compromise?

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That's what I mean by "less than 1% of the world population"; Apple's target audience. Only large companies and the elite can afford such a computer by paying the full price with cash. And those that will get one will have to make monthly payments with interest on credit cards. Never pay interest on technology that will age.

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Because it's Apple. And because it looks like a trash can on a StarWars Destroyer Apple can markup the computer by $2000 on looks alone.

Wow, you've just disqualified yourself there with the Star Wars remark. It's a shame really, the other stuff was quite realistic.
 
Since when has Apple been about compromise?

Every time they've released a computer that is less than it COULD have been, especially when it's less for mere aesthetic reasons (which is THE major reason 99% of the time. Jobs was obsessed with THIN and Cook continues that sad sad trend).

Wow, you've just disqualified yourself there with the Star Wars remark. It's a shame really, the other stuff was quite realistic.

Disqualified? I think he's right on the money about the appearance. I personally doubt the markup thing, but it IS overpriced at the low-end, IMO; Apple could use a consumer tower...a souped up Mac Mini if you will...in other words a normal desktop instead of a tiny little not-exactly-portable-but-looks-that-way one.
 
Disqualified? I think he's right on the money about the appearance. I personally doubt the markup thing, but it IS overpriced at the low-end, IMO; Apple could use a consumer tower...a souped up Mac Mini if you will...in other words a normal desktop instead of a tiny little not-exactly-portable-but-looks-that-way one.

Apple could, or you (or some people) could? I think Apple, in terms of their own benefit, knows what they're doing here- the number of 'consumers' who need a tower (basically meaning, a computer with multiple drive bays and PCI slots) isn't very large. Which is why the "pro" desktop has been climbing in price over the last decade. If they saw a profit opportunity in a cheap tower instead of a Mac Mini or an iMac, they'd probably take it. Thunderbolt is probably the best concession to the tower crowd they could've ever made, as it actually lets a Mac Mini or an iMac fulfill a large percentage of any of the "tower" needs of a consumer (or a pro for that matter). Non-internally upgradeable computers are the consumer standard these days... Laptops.
 
Because it's Apple. And because it looks like a trash can on a StarWars Destroyer Apple can markup the computer by $2000 on looks alone.

you guys gotta start using the right trash cans to compare to

nmp32.jpg
 
Thunderbolt is probably the best concession to the tower crowd they could've ever made, as it actually lets a Mac Mini or an iMac fulfill a large percentage of any of the "tower" needs of a consumer (or a pro for that matter). Non-internally upgradeable computers are the consumer standard these days... Laptops.

You do realize that even at the consumer level that non-user replaceable GPUs are a bane, right? CPUs are pretty much at a level now that they don't need replaced for typical computer uses (including higher end games) maybe every 3-8 years depending on one's use of the computer. GPUs, however, need upgraded perhaps every 2-3 years at best save those that only do things like Internet and email. And thus, this perpetuates otherwise unnecessary upgrades in the Apple realm. I'm sure you could probably rightly point out that this is a win for Apple as it means staunch OSX fans will continue to upgrade every 2-3 years just so they can have a GPU that does intermediate level tasks.

There is literally NO Mac that is suitable for high-end graphical tasks save perhaps this new Mac Pro and it is priced completely out of the consumer price grade. Thus, I reiterate that a Hackintosh quite sadly remains the ONLY VIABLE OPTION for Mac power users. There used to be a Mac for power users. It was aptly titled the PowerMac. To give you an idea of its longevity with a few upgrades, I just retired a 2001 PowerMac Digital Audio (a dual 550MHz G4 upgraded to 1.8GHz in 2007) that was used as a whole house audio/video server and Internet surfing station just last year in late 2012. That's ELEVEN years of usefulness. You'd be lucky to get 6 out a higher-end model Mac now that's not used for any kind of high-end graphics or gaming today. OSX requirements alone will kill a Mac now in terms of ability to get newer versions of software in 4-6 years even if the hardware is still perfectly usable for things like Internet or email. A lack of browser updates will quickly kill a machine's usefulness (a lack of iTunes updates didn't help the PowerMac either last year).
 
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