Mac Pro the terrible

daneosaur · Feb 28, 2009

nick9191 said:
Would you rather they offered 4gb RAM and a 500gb HDD for $3099, or would you rather they offered what they do for $2799 and let you add in your own and save cash.

Personally I'd rather they shipped it with no RAM, hard drive or GPU and let me source my own.

Actually I think that it would be great if apple offered a barebone Mac pro option. If they just sold you the computer with mobo and cpus and left the rest to you that would be amazing. If they did do that they would need to sell at a much lower price. I think it would be fair to charge between $1500-$2000 for a barebone mac pro and then the customer could configure it according to their needs.

Umbongo · Feb 28, 2009

Beerfloat said:
This myth is oft repeated but not really all that true. Spec out something like a Dell T7400 with dual quad core Xeons and you might find that the same budget stretches to 4GB, a 750GB drive and a reasonable Nvidia Quadro for your graphics. Mac Pro isn't terrible value but still.

But of course this complaint isn't really about the Mac Pro itself but more about all those Apples that are missing between the Mini and the Pro.

Only when going with slower processors.

Dr.Pants · Feb 28, 2009

nick9191 said:
Would you rather they offered 4gb RAM and a 500gb HDD for $3099, or would you rather they offered what they do for $2799 and let you add in your own and save cash.

Personally I'd rather they shipped it with no RAM, hard drive or GPU and let me source my own.

Now that is proably the best idea I've heard today. But then again - Apple uses EFI, which in turn means that there will be the occasion where one idiot decides to try and shove in a BIOS graphics card and the thing will not even display - Apple ships an HDD, RAM, and graphics card to make sure that if somebody gets a defective unit they will know the moment they press "on" or run whatever programs he/she has to.

On the note of the GFX card, somebody who knows the ins-and-outs of EFI and OpenGL should get in here and comment. From my basic assumptions (which could be wrong), any GFX card in the Macpro will perform better then its BIOS equivilent b/c of the applications that can use VRAM in OpenGL.... But this is for the applications that one gets his/her workstation for.

Sehnsucht · Feb 28, 2009

Umbongo said:
I love it. I wish I could pay more! Sometimes I feel guilty I got it so cheap I mail money to Apple.

LMFAO!

JesterJJZ · Feb 28, 2009

ericsthename said:
Oh, and I hope you enjoy paying 3000 dollars for a "pro" class system with 2gb ram at 800mhz

I love it and it makes me a lot of money. These things could cost 10k for a base model and I wouldn't think twice about getting one.

daneosaur · Feb 28, 2009

JesterJJZ said:
I love it and it makes me a lot of money. These things could cost 10k for a base model and I wouldn't think twice about getting one.

I'm not quite sure I understand your logic there...

You're happy about spending more money than you should have to for a computer because it makes you money??

Think about the money you would have left over if you didn't pay for an overpriced computer...

Grimace · Feb 28, 2009

Again? Really?

The same old obnoxious complaints deserve the same old obnoxious answers:

1. Apple has no headless mid-tower - Dell has all sorts of configurable towers
2. Apple shipped 1.2M computers in Q4 '08 - Dell shipped 4.6M computers in Q4 '08
3. Apple has high gross margins/unit (30%) - Dell has lower gross margins/unit (16%)
4. Apple is worth $80 billion - Dell is worth $16 billion
4a. Apple has $21 billion in cash - and could buy Dell outright
5. Apple wants a certain kind of customer - Dell wants all customers

It sounds like Apple isn't directly searching for you as a customer. As much as that sucks for you, the company is geared toward marketing products to specific segments. Apple wants to make products really really well -- for certain types of people. You aren't one of them.

If you want to stay with OS X, you either save a bit more for a Mac Pro, or you "settle" for an iMac that you can't tinker around with as much.

nick9191 · Feb 28, 2009

Beerfloat said:
This myth is oft repeated but not really all that true. Spec out something like a Dell T7400 with dual quad core Xeons and you might find that the same budget stretches to 4GB, a 750GB drive and a reasonable Nvidia Quadro for your graphics. Mac Pro isn't terrible value but still.

But of course this complaint isn't really about the Mac Pro itself but more about all those Apples that are missing between the Mini and the Pro.

Dell T7400:

Dual Quad 2.83ghz Xeons
1gb RAM
DVD ROM (not even a DVD Rewriter)
80gb HDD
nVidia NVS 290

$2770.

Right off the Dell site.

daneosaur · Feb 28, 2009

Grimace said:
The same old obnoxious complaints deserve the same old obnoxious answers:

1. Apple has no headless mid-tower - Dell has all sorts of configurable towers
2. Apple has 15% of the US home market - Dell has 40%
3. Apple has high gross margins (30%) - Dell has lower gross margins (16%)
4. Apple is worth $80 billion - Dell is worth $16 billion
5. Apple wants a certain kind of customer - Dell wants all customers

It sounds like Apple isn't directly searching for you as a customer. As much as that sucks for you, the company is geared toward marketing products to specific segments. Apple wants to make products really really well -- for certain types of people. You aren't one of them.

If you want to stay with OS X, you either save a bit more for a Mac Pro, or you "settle" for an iMac that you can't tinker around with as much.

OR you can build yourself a hackintosh with the same specs as a Mac Pro for a fraction of the cost which then means apple is losing customers because of its failure to be competitive. Apple no longer has different hardware than other PC manufactures so they can't justify charging different prices. And you can't say that they can charge a premium for being able to run Mac OS X anymore because it is now so easy to install it on a PC that even the average consumer can do it.

And don't preach to me about it not being legal because:
1. I don't care.
2. The EULA is not a legal document.

Tallest Skil · Feb 28, 2009

daneosaur said:
Apple no longer has different hardware than other PC manufactures so they can't justify charging different prices.

It runs OS X.

And you can't say that they can charge a premium for being able to run Mac OS X anymore because it is now so easy to install it on a PC that even the average consumer can do it.

Magical. 90% of "average consumers" are too afraid to do it or don't care to do it. If it were so easy and people cared, OS X would have 70% marketshare right now.

wetrix · Feb 28, 2009

daneosaur said:
OR you can build yourself a hackintosh with the same specs as a Mac Pro for a fraction of the cost

I'd like to see you try. Go on. Put together the same spec machine with dual Quad Xeons for less. The Mac Pro may be a rip off as a desktop, but as a server (which a lot of people use them for), they are cheap as chips.

Tallest Skil · Feb 28, 2009

wetrix said:
I'd like to see you try. Go on. Put together the same spec machine with dual Quad Xeons for less. The Mac Pro may be a rip off as a desktop, but as a server (which a lot of people use them for), they are cheap as chips.

Same specs, no, not cheaper. Faster benchmarks (because that's all that matters, right guys?! RIGHT?!), yes.

Grimace · Feb 28, 2009

daneosaur said:
OR you can build yourself a hackintosh with the same specs as a Mac Pro for a fraction of the cost which then means apple is losing customers because of its failure to be competitive. Apple no longer has different hardware than other PC manufactures so they can't justify charging different prices. And you can't say that they can charge a premium for being able to run Mac OS X anymore because it is now so easy to install it on a PC that even the average consumer can do it.

And don't preach to me about it not being legal because:
1. I don't care.
2. The EULA is not a legal document.

By your logic, every manufacturer should charge the same price for computer hardware.

The fact that you don't care about the legality issue shows your true colors. The fact that you think the EULA isn't a legal document shows that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

How old are you?

nick9191 · Feb 28, 2009

daneosaur said:
OR you can build yourself a hackintosh with the same specs as a Mac Pro for a fraction of the cost

I am so sick of people saying this when it's been bashed to crap so many times.

You CANNOT build a Mac Pro for a fraction of the cost. A computer with identical specs as a Mac Pro, right down to the last detail comes out at more than a Mac Pro.

If you want to build a Mini tower which doesn't have dual processors, doesn't take upto 32gb of ECC memory, and call it a Mac Pro for the fraction of the cost, then you are living in fairy tale world.

opeter · Feb 28, 2009

No, off course, you can't. People are always comparing the desktop Core 2 Duos and Core 2 Quad CPUs + DDR2 RAM with Xeon CPUs and DDR2 ECC RAM.

That's bad.

daneosaur · Feb 28, 2009

wetrix said:
I'd like to see you try. Go on. Put together the same spec machine with dual Quad Xeons for less. The Mac Pro may be a rip off as a desktop, but as a server (which a lot of people use them for), they are cheap as chips.

Actually, the reason I joined in on this thread was because earlier today I was curious about how much I could build the equivalent to a mac pro for so I went on to Newegg and found all the components of one and it came out to about $2000. If you don't believe me go try it for yourself. Not only that but for basically the same price (around $2000) you can actually build one with better specs ie. more ram, bigger HD, and much better graphics card.

Now why would you spend more money for a worse computer? I love apple products and I think apple is a great company but personally, I could never justify spending more money for a mac pro that has worse specs.

In my mind when you buy a "Pro" machine you should expect to get high end components, even if they are unnecessary. Its like buying a top of the line car from BMW and not getting any of the things you would expect on an expensive car such as leather seats, sunroof etc.

kevink2 · Feb 28, 2009

A year ago when I bought my Mac Pro, I compared prices (ignoring software) to building an equivalent myself and compared to a Dell.

The Dell was more expensive for comparable specs, and building it myself was comparable in price.

Building it myself or buying the Dell would have given me a Windows system, not a Mac.

The Dell had a significantly slower base price, but that was for a much slower Xeon chip.

A year ago, you couldn't find dual CPU systems in a consumer line, and except for some 64 bit AMD systems, you couldn't find systems offering more than 4GB of RAM either. So I had to go workstation class systems to get support for more RAM. Even now, the only other system Apple supports > 4GB RAM is the Macbook Pro.

Of course, this was a year ago. I haven't priced what I could have bought from other vendors NOW.

Tallest Skil · Feb 28, 2009

daneosaur said:
Actually, the reason I joined in on this thread was because earlier today I was curious about how much I could build the equivalent to a mac pro for so I went on to Newegg and found all the components of one and it came out to about $2000. If you don't believe me go try it for yourself. Not only that but for basically the same price (around $2000) you can actually build one with better specs ie. more ram, bigger HD, and much better graphics card.

Shopping cart linked below. You seem to have missed some important things. Apple made money with each Mac Pro sale when it came out because they get bulk discounting on everything. Now, 1.1 years out, they make $300 more than they did when it was first released.

That's it. They only make ANY more because the price of FB-DIMMs, HDDs, and graphics cards have gone down.

In my mind when you buy a "Pro" machine you should expect to get high end components, even if they are unnecessary.

You're getting FB-DIMMs and Xeons in a personal computer, so I don't understand your definition of "unnecessary" or "high-end", then.

nick9191 · Feb 28, 2009

daneosaur said:
Actually, the reason I joined in on this thread was because earlier today I was curious about how much I could build the equivalent to a mac pro for so I went on to Newegg and found all the components of one and it came out to about $2000. If you don't believe me go try it for yourself. Not only that but for basically the same price (around $2000) you can actually build one with better specs ie. more ram, bigger HD, and much better graphics card.

Now why would you spend more money for a worse computer? I love apple products and I think apple is a great company but personally, I could never justify spending more money for a mac pro that has worse specs.

In my mind when you buy a "Pro" machine you should expect to get high end components, even if they are unnecessary. Its like buying a top of the line car from BMW and not getting any of the things you would expect on an expensive car such as leather seats, sunroof etc.

wetrix · Feb 28, 2009

daneosaur said:
Actually, the reason I joined in on this thread was because earlier today I was curious about how much I could build the equivalent to a mac pro for so I went on to Newegg and found all the components of one and it came out to about $2000. If you don't believe me go try it for yourself. Not only that but for basically the same price (around $2000) you can actually build one with better specs ie. more ram, bigger HD, and much better graphics card.

$710.99 Intel Xeon E5440 Harpertown 2.83GHz LGA 771 80W Quad-Core Processor Model BX80574E5440A - Retail
$710.99 Intel Xeon E5440 Harpertown 2.83GHz LGA 771 80W Quad-Core Processor Model BX80574E5440A - Retail
$349.99 ASUS DSEB-DG Dual LGA 771 Intel 5400 SSI EEB 3.61 Server Motherboard - Retail (lowest price dual LGA711 with 800 MHz FB-DIMMs)
$33.49 Kingston 1GB 240-Pin DDR2 FB-DIMM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) ECC Fully Buffered Server Memory Model KVR800D2D8F5/1G - Retail
$33.49 Kingston 1GB 240-Pin DDR2 FB-DIMM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) ECC Fully Buffered Server Memory Model KVR800D2D8F5/1G - Retail
$50.00 Western Digital Caviar SE WD3200AAJS 320GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
$69.99 KINGWIN ABT-730MM 730W ATX / BTX SLI Ready CrossFire Ready Active PFC Power Supply - Retail
$30 Graphics card
$50 Case
$20 Optical drive
$10 Mouse & Keyboard
Total: $2068.94

Okay, so you can put together a similar spec machine for close to $2000 (not including shipping, time to install and an operating system).

daneosaur said:
In my mind when you buy a "Pro" machine you should expect to get high end components, even if they are unnecessary.

I believe the components inside the Mac Pro (at least Mobo, Case, Heat Sinks and PSU) are of higher quality than those used to put together the above quote. So if you factor in another $200-$300 for this (not that you'll ever get a case as good as that of the Pro). Keep in mind that the Pro comes fully assembled with OS installed (important if you are getting lots of them).

When it all comes down to it, Apple released this system at this price over a year ago and today you can't really do too much better. I have to say that anything above the base model is a rip off, so if you want an Octo 3.2 GHz, then the Pro isn't looking so good.

Ploki · Feb 28, 2009

everybody knows its good to buy a mac either at the complete end of a cycle when 20-30% discounts begin, or at the beginning.
its bad to buy i dont know, after 1 year a model has been released.
computer world is too fast.
if you ask me if whole computer world has apple's tactic we'd have a more cultivated computer community, not as fast food as everything seems these days.
no, im not justifying apples policies against others, im criticizing the PC hyperproduction, nobody would get hurt if a few "mid" generations would be flunked out and they would just release significant updates.
i mean. nevermind.

dukebound85 · Feb 28, 2009

i think the issue is alot of people dont need server grade stuff and to them, a quad core chip is a nice solution to balance price and performance

once you get away from the server market and into the desktop, the macpro looks insanely high....only because the average jo doesnt want/need server parts

with that said, there are alot of people that want desktops where they can upgrade components

my question is why is the macpro built with server specs with no option for desktop specs? i imagine most that need the power for a macpro esp the quad core variety do not need server parts but want something more than the imac's laptop components

wetrix · Feb 28, 2009

I think the above posts prove that the Mac Pro is still competitively priced at base level. Having administered server hardware for about 10 years, I've never used a case that is as friendly as the Mac Pro. The case alone is worth a good $300 in my book and these quotes don't take that into account.

sedril · Feb 28, 2009

wetrix said:
I think the above posts prove that the Mac Pro is still competitively priced at base level. Having administered server hardware for about 10 years, I've never used a case that is as friendly as the Mac Pro. The case alone is worth a good $300 in my book and these quotes don't take that into account.

I agree 100% And I'd even say it's worth more than $300... I've built many PC's over the years and the build quality of the Mac Pro just can't be set aside when you're trying to compare price on components.

Tallest Skil · Feb 28, 2009

wetrix said:
$69.99 KINGWIN ABT-730MM 730W ATX / BTX SLI Ready CrossFire Ready Active PFC Power Supply - Retail

The Mac Pro's is 200W more.

$30 Graphics card

The HD 2600 XT is not a $30 card.

$50 Case

The Mac Pro case is not $50.

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