No, I didn't miss the point.
daneosaur's numbers aren't accurate. The consumer still needs to buy new and equivalent parts to make the comparison reasonable and all the parts need to be included.
You can't build that for his quoted price.
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Mac Pro the terrible
- Thread starter ericsthename
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daneosaur's numbers aren't accurate. The consumer still needs to buy new and equivalent parts to make the comparison reasonable and all the parts need to be included.
You can't build that for his quoted price.
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Haha, outside of the discussion, but pc's have been built in china for the last few years. I think I could put together a computer with better QC than any shanghai factory even without the shop.
I'm presently on my FIFTH macbook pro (original purchase was the very first core duo). I have had 2 logic board failures, 2 bad LCD's, a bad optical drive, a faulty case (warped on the pre-unibody), and a recalled battery.
So, what I'm getting at is that I can certainly appreciate the value of a good warranty, but my goodness I could certainly build 'em better than foxconn can.
2X Harpertown quad 2.83 - $1,431.98
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117144
SIGMA FOCUS SP800B 800W (900W Peak) ATX12V Power Supply - 99.99
ASUS DSBV-DX Dual LGA 771 Intel 5000V SSI CEB 1.1 Server Motherboard - 219.99
Transcend 2GB DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) ECC Fully Buffered Memory for Apple Mac Pro - 42.99
-can't find a 256mb pci 2600xt, so this instead:
HIS Hightech H260XTP512DDN-R Radeon HD 2600XT 512MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported iSilence III Video Card - Retail - $99
Case, Ebay - 49.99
http://cgi.ebay.com/Apple-PowerMac-...4|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:0|293:1|294:50
Western Digital Caviar SE WD3200AAJS 320GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - 49.99
My grand total comes to: $1994.92
For 2785.87, I was able to upgrade to the previous, plus:
Motherboard supporting 128 GB Ram, 1TB HD, 14GB ram, Radeon HD 4870 2GB VRAM.
I am pretty sure I heard someone say this like 8 years ago...
Oh, and OP comparing what your "early 2000" g3 imac could handle to the imacs on the line right now is ridiculous. Seriously.
BTW- I just got my first Mac Pro this weekend- 2.8Ghz 8-core 8gb 1TB for $2250. Thank you craigslist! (I have a friend who knows the guy I bought it from and has had him do graphics work for his company. Great guy.) Like another guy on here, I trade and want a machine I can trust. I just ordered 3 more 1TBs and will begin using RAID 10 by the end of the week. Someone please show me how to do that in a Hackintosh.
Please show me any homemade PC that has anywhere near the level of a non-clusterf**k internal layout, elegance and grace that a MacPro has.
I am going to say this loud and clear, YOU CANNOT PUT A XEON PROCESSOR IN A G5 CASE! This board has gone crazy. The MP is great if you are needing server grade products in a desktop running OSX without having to hack it on there and be able to get support from Apple. OP, the G5 is not a comparable box to use. I understand the point you are making, but Apple has so much more innovation in the way they organize the inside of the newer MP's that you are really comparing apple's and... well... old apple's. Which, as I said earlier when you referenced your old G3 imac, is ridiculous.
My point exactly. Grace is a good word. Installing a hard drive was so fast. However, unless you have used this machine for what it is designed to be used for, we will sit her arguing this point forever. Ingenuity is worth something to those of us who are interested in using our computers to work on and not wasting our time working on our computers.
The ASUS DSBV-DX Dual LGA 771 Intel 5000V motherboard is not even close to the same specs as a current Mac Pro motherboard. The memory is only 667 MHz. The FSB is 1333 MHz maximum. It supports only 24GB of RAM.
The ASUS DSEB-DG Dual LGA 771 Intel 5400 SSI EEB 3.61 Server Motherboard, at $349.99, is the cheapest motherboard that has similar specs to the current Mac Pro.
The Mac Pro has a 980W power supply. The one you have chosen is not equal to what the Mac Pro has. The Athena Power AP-P4ATX90FEP 900W EPS12V power supply at $143.99 is close enough. Though the Mac Pro power supply is still more powerful.
800 MHz RAM is going to cost $72.99.
Again, you can't buy used crap on eBay for this comparison. An equivalent case is going to cost big bucks. Then you have to buy fans, OS, keyboard, mouse, DVD drive, etc.
Again, your argument has been refuted. The Mac Pro is not over priced for what you get.
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The price APPLE pays for components is irrelevant. Just because Steve can get mates rates doesn't mean he owes it to you to pass them on.
Components through newegg.com are not "significantly" marked up. PC components are a competitive market and many place only make a few dollars on each piece.
The wattage on PSUs does not tell you a thing about quality. This is the max power output and is not sustained. The Mac Pro PSU can SUSTAIN enough power to run the max specs listed. A $100 desktop PSU will not match it.
One more thing. It's clear that many of you have never put together a PC. Not only do you need to buy extra fans, but you would also need to buy another 3 SATA connectors (assuming one comes with the mobo) to match the Mac Pros built in connectivity. Plus pull-out hard drive bays aren't cheap either. Number on paper aren't everything (e.g. cars).
Couldn't have phrased it better myself.
By this logic, you are saying that Apple should sell their machines at their second-hand, 2-year old value...new.
I forgot that $2031.93 was "under $2000".
Same mfg and size *may* happen, but not lot number.
How many SANs have you actually dealt with?
Obviously, at some point there is going to be overlap, but even then the overlap would ideally be on different RAID-1s in a RAID-10 etc.
Either way, feel free to build your RAID with the same make, model, lot number, firmware etc., and I'll feel free to laugh when your array gets shot to pieces.
Indeed. I consider myself pretty knowledgeable with computers and seem to be the guy everyone calls when they have problems with their PC or need help installing stuff. After being on a Mac so long I can't express any more how frustrating it is to open up an HP or a Dell and have to wade through a mess of wires and cables just to install some RAM. In some cases you have to pop out the optical drives to do so. Even then you're lucky not to get your hands cut up while you're in there. The way PCs are put together seems so archaic it boggles the mind. They spend all their time trying to make the things look "cool" on the outside they completely neglect the internals. The best thing I've seen come close to the grace of a MacPro is the HP Blackbird.
Debating about Mac Pros is much more fun than discussing the other clone mac models.
Post 1. "My macbook screen is a piece of S***"
Post 2. "Well my one is fine for me"
Post 3. "pfft get an iMac"
Post 4. "I'd like to see you put an iMac in your backpack and take it to uni!"
Post 5. "I'm a lawer and my iMac sits in my office. I have a Mac Pro and a 30" ACD at home"
and so on.
Post 1. "My macbook screen is a piece of S***"
Post 2. "Well my one is fine for me"
Post 3. "pfft get an iMac"
Post 4. "I'd like to see you put an iMac in your backpack and take it to uni!"
Post 5. "I'm a lawer and my iMac sits in my office. I have a Mac Pro and a 30" ACD at home"
and so on.
May happen? What planet do you live on? Open up ANY pre-built network storage from IBM, HP, Dell, Sun, Intel, NetApp, etc., will have all the same size disks from the same manufacturer. Do you really think they sit down in manufacturing and check lot numbers of the drives they pull of the shelves to build these units?
These systems are extensively tested before they are sold. No version of firmware is used until it has passed exhaustive tests.
I have never seen a system with all the drives from the same lot number. But I have seen more than one drive from the same lot number in many.
Dozens.
No RMA form or order form has EVER asked for the lot number of a drive. I have never seen a manufacturer make any mention of drive lot numbers. If the lot number issue was such a big deal as you seem to think, why do the companies that make these units not care even one tiny bit?
If I use properly tested RAID solutions, and backup my data, you will never have anything to laugh at on my end. You want to use a hodgepodge of drives in your RAID arrays, feel free.
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Funny; the latest Dell one I managed had two different drive mfgs from the start, and when we ordered more disks for it we got a mix of firmwares on one of the models.
These things are largely automated, and so I strongly doubt it was pure happenstance.
No matter how much you're in an arguing mood, you can't really claim that mixing make, model, firmware and lot is bad for resilience.
Just because it's easier not to mix and match doesn't mean it's best practice.
*slow smile*
Sure. No one on MacRumors works at Apple.
Yes, no one in the important departments posts here, but there are Apple employees on here.
Tallest Skil works at a Genius Bar.
Yup.
Genius Bar. I have spoken.
Tallest Skil works at a Genius Bar.
Yup.
Genius Bar. I have spoken.
Gah. Don't associate me with those snobby weirdos.
My nearest Apple Store is an hour away. I certainly wish that I worked at one, if only to work the evening shift every Monday so that I could see stuff six hours early and tell you all about it.
Not primarily.
My primary system remains the desktop, predominantly for photography.
I could use an OS X Server to provide for redundant data storage (backup) that's physically outside of the workstation (and laptop), and my plan is to recycle my current Mac tower into an OS X Server (I already have the software installed) once I buy a Mac Pro after the next Apple refresh.
The question of what mix of CPU, RAM, HD, GPU ... is optimal depends on the task(s) that the system is intended to be used.
For Photoshop, I need CPU, RAM & HD ... not GPU.
I say "not GPU" because despite how people keep on saying that a high end GPU is supposedly so essential, when I challenge a poster (hint, hint) to produce benchmarks as to how it would benefit my applications, they conveniently forget my polite requests to back up their claims.
FWIW, I'd even settle for some Photoshop benchmarks that illustrate a significant benefit in OS X to using a (more expensive) GPU card, since I've never found any that show any sort of compelling benefit.
Granted, the prospects of tapping GPUs as is being developed for Snow Leopard has some potential ... but that's not yet a reality that includes published benchmarks that let me as the customer objectively decide its cost:benefit for my application.
The Mac Pro is the ultimate Apple desktop. Its just that for the Macintosh, its utility is generally not the same as for what most home "Ultimate" Windows PCs are generally built for, which is very specifically games.
The conflict then occurs because home customers ... generally younger and probably also recent PC converts ... then try to use the system for something that it wasn't really designed for, and instead of trying to understand what it was designed for, they complain that it was designed 'wrong'.
To abuse a car analogy, I could put a trailer hitch on my Porsche 911 and then try to haul a boat with it - - but since it probably wouldn't do a great job, would I really be right in complaining? Afterall, the 911 wasn't designed to haul cargo.
-hh
Not to mention having the computer burn-in tested and any parts that fail replaced before you even knew they existed rather than you having no computer while you resolve the problem yourself and pay for the replacement shipping to boot....
Apple, burn-in, quality control, ????. We must know different companies.
That said, I'm very happy with my Mac Pro. I have an early 2008 octo, and I purchased it shortly after it's release, as such I feel it did represent decent enough value for money. Now a year on with no change it would admittedly be a little harder to stomach.
Coming from the windows side of the world I agree that the Mac Pro is a bit of a sticker shock when you see the pricing. 2799 for a base configuration.
The only downfall is the video card and HDs that come standard...there is no excuse for a 2799 base system to come with a CHEAP ATI gfx card whether or not it does the job...and a 320gb 7200 RPM drive is ok...but the option for a 128gb SSD, or a 10k drive in place of it with less capacity would appeal to more people.
Basically they need to make some better standard options....but to say it's overpriced? I don't think so...but of course I'd like it to be cheaper!
The only downfall is the video card and HDs that come standard...there is no excuse for a 2799 base system to come with a CHEAP ATI gfx card whether or not it does the job...and a 320gb 7200 RPM drive is ok...but the option for a 128gb SSD, or a 10k drive in place of it with less capacity would appeal to more people.
Basically they need to make some better standard options....but to say it's overpriced? I don't think so...but of course I'd like it to be cheaper!
How is it ridiculous to point out that I have in the past had an iMac, and found the all in one setup to be limiting? How have apple changed the layout any from that time? You still get a computer with its components soldered to the board, limited ram and HD access...
Could you point me to one of the many places selling 6G of FB-DIMM RAM for $50?
I will have to play the devils advocate here a bit: Apple, despite displaying a very two faced attitude in practice, has actively displayed to the public that games are important. In recent keynotes we have seen both ID software and EA games come alongside with steve and promise mac support. Apple has a large section on their site dedicated to gaming. So as you and I say, the Mac Pro is the Ultimate macintosh desktop - it isn't presumptuous to say that apple is courting folks who would game with their top-of-the-line computer. NOW before you business folk crap on my head, Im just pointing it out... it is valid, but I'm not suggesting that the Mac Pro is designed for it.
Secondly, there are many people attacking my post showing what I could build on newegg.
That exercise was meant simply to show what a mac pro costs relatively speaking, and what it COULD cost you for around the same buck. I think that it was telling that I was able to piece together a computer with the same base spec, PLUS 14gb ram, a leading edge 2gb video card and 1tb harddisk and motherboard support for 128gb ram. There never was any question as to whether it was going to be a nicer cable layout etc. I'm not saying that I'm going to start selling workstations out of my garage here!
finally, I think it is relevant to factor in apple's cost to the debate. You can't just ignore factors because they don't suit you. I'm not pretending that Apple doesnt have other costs: they have to pay the company to assemble, develop and test the hardware, write drivers, market the product and provide boxes, software and manuals etc. I know that - but at the same time I'm also willing to consider the prices that they actually pay for the pieces they use.
At the end of the day its all just discussion. People like -hh have shown that for them the mac pro is good value, and made a convincing case.
Even -hh is waiting for a refresh before he/she buys though... so the value can't be that strong
Except what you built at NewEgg was not equivalent to what Apple provides in the Mac Pro. The "base specs" were not the same. If you build a system using equivalent parts, you get similar costs.
So you showed us nothing other than you don't know how to pick appropriate components to build a system equivalent to a current Mac Pro.
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