Mac Pro the terrible

[sneezymarble]

Except what you built at NewEgg was not equivalent to what Apple provides in the Mac Pro. The "base specs" were not the same. If you build a system using equivalent parts, you get similar costs.

That's pretty much true. And, I think it's true, for the most part, that when you compare prices of the Mac Pro with similarly configured systems from other manufacturers you find that Apple's prices are not much different and may even be less.

But look, and it boggles my mind that so many people simply cannot grasp this point, SOME PEOPLE DON'T WANT A COMPUTER THAT HAS ALL THE EQUIVALENT PARTS THAT ONE CAN GET IN A MAC PRO! What I want is a computer with a certain level of performance. And, a home builder can build a system with the same or better performance for far less than the cost of a Mac Pro or any other typical manufactured workstation.

If you took a quad core Mac Pro with 8GBs of RAM and my system and put each one under its own ugly cardboard box and then hooked all the same peripherals up to each one you'd find that my system performed significantly faster and cost at least 1/3 of what that Mac Pro cost. I mean, if you just had two Photoshoppers or Final Cut editors walk up and use each machine they would be able to notice that one "cardboard" box performed better than the other. What does it matter than one is overclocked? I'm interested in getting what I want to get done quicker and for less money. The same would be true for a nicely built and overclocked octo core Hack.

 

[nanofrog]

That's pretty much true. And, I think it's true, for the most part, that when you compare prices of the Mac Pro with similarly configured systems from other manufacturers you find that the Apple's prices are not much different and may even be less.

But look, and it boggles my mind that so many people simply cannot grasp this point, SOME PEOPLE DON'T WANT A COMPUTER THAT HAS ALL THE EQUIVALENT PARTS THAT ONE CAN GET IN A MAC PRO! What I want is a computer with a certain level of performance. And, a home builder can build a system with the same or better performance for far less than the cost of a Mac Pro or any other typical manufactured workstation.

Last I looked, an equivalent system from Dell and HP was ~$1300+ USD more for the same base parts. There were still minor differences, such as FW ports,... that made it hard for an absolutely exact 1:1 comparison. But close enough to consider for cost purposes.

I thought it made the current MP a real bargain for it's hardware.

I did not attempt to take overclocking possibilities into consideration.

 

[Pressure]

Last I looked, an equivalent system from Dell and HP was ~$1300+ USD more for the same base parts. There were still minor differences, such as FW ports,... that made it hard for an absolutely exact 1:1 comparison. But close enough to consider for cost purposes.

I thought it made the current MP a real bargain for it's hardware.

I did not attempt to take overclocking possibilities into consideration.

My standard Mac Pro 2.8Ghz easily overclocks to 3.2Ghz. Of course with the right Skulltrail motherboard you could probably easy hit 4Ghz.

 

[nick9191]

OK to set this straight once and for all:

On Newegg.com I can build an equivalent Mac Pro for under $2000 with the following specs:

Dual Quad Core 2.83Ghz Intel Harpertown Xeon CPUs Slower processor, 1333 bus versus 1600.
2GB DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) ECC Fully Buffered Memory (exact memory used in mac pro)
320GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive
22X Dual Layer DVD Writer
512MB ATI Radeon HD 2600XT Graphics Card
900 Watt Power Supply

Total: $1931.93

Add on $50-$100 for a mac pro case off ebay.

$2031.93

This configuration actually is better than the Mac Pro. It has double the video memory, a more powerful power supply No it doesn't

and a faster dvd burner.

Keep in mind that these are with retail prices for a consumer to purchase. That means that they are significantly marked up. For apple to purchase these components costs half that much. So don't try to tell me that apple isn't making any profit. You can go on believing that and keep putting your money into apples pocket while they laugh their way to the bank.

If you dare me I will show you what kind of monster machine I can put together for $2799, the starting price of a Mac Pro

You also ommitted Firewire 400 and 800, Bluetooth, a Keyboard and 5 button mouse, a brand new Mac Pro case (why would I want a used case off ebay?), a sound card that can support Tosslink.

And if we really want to get picky, Windows equivalents of iMovie, iWeb, iDVD, iPhoto which amount to several hundreds of dollars on Windows.

Oh and on top of that, whatever you earn per hour times the amount of hours setting up and modifying that Mac Pro case to take a standard board (totally ruining airflow in the process).

And finally year of the best warranty in the industry, which is not arguable.

Take a look at my post earlier on if you want a proper price comparison.

 

[nanofrog]

My standard Mac Pro 2.8Ghz easily overclocks to 3.2Ghz. Of course with the right Skulltrail motherboard you could probably easy hit 4Ghz.

I liked the Asus Z7S WS. It seemed to rate better from it's users than the Skulltrail (stability).

Currently goes for $470 at newegg. A home build might save a little cash, but the performance of the Nehalem may warrant skipping it these days.

 

[sidewinder]

That's pretty much true. And, I think it's true, for the most part, that when you compare prices of the Mac Pro with similarly configured systems from other manufacturers you find that Apple's prices are not much different and may even be less.

But look, and it boggles my mind that so many people simply cannot grasp this point, SOME PEOPLE DON'T WANT A COMPUTER THAT HAS ALL THE EQUIVALENT PARTS THAT ONE CAN GET IN A MAC PRO! What I want is a computer with a certain level of performance. And, a home builder can build a system with the same or better performance for far less than the cost of a Mac Pro or any other typical manufactured workstation.

Did you read what has been written????

I have already suggested that he shouldn't be complaining about the cost of the Mac Pro. That he should be complaining that Apple does not make the system he wants Apple to make. Because that, at least, would be a valid point to make.

But his first post stated that the Mac Pro "represents the worst of Apple's hardware offerings in terms of value" and he has been trying to backup that statement ever since with these newegg parts price comparisons.

S-

 

[applesith]

Well, I'm glad you introduced the notion of Apple owing the consumer, since that was never suggested. I can also see that you're a proud owner of a Mac Pro 2.8. By the way, the US government didn't sink the economy - pure private BANKS did. Detroit fell by the wayside because of longstanding issues with their business model.

The government made it clear that they wanted to increase home ownership and they continued to build Freddie and Fannie with BS assets of loans which they knew could not be paid back. The government forced private banks to make loans and mortgages to people the bank would not normally approve. The government created the idea that people are owed a house. Know that the government is getting further involved, the economy is sinking further.

 

[JasonK]

How is it ridiculous to point out that I have in the past had an iMac, and found the all in one setup to be limiting? How have apple changed the layout any from that time? You still get a computer with its components soldered to the board, limited ram and HD access...

The new iMac has the ability to upgrade to 1TB 4GB ram, and a superdrive. With it, you could edit in HD, render in Photoshop, while simultaneously being able to operate Windows XP. If you needed a faster hard drive you can install an SAS, or more storage, you could get a FW 800 external. The HD is not soldered, and not that hard to replace, easier than some win-boxes for sure. If you are going to do more than this then you would want a powerhouse machine that could handle it, like a Mac Pro. The imac back then was a 15" screen with 10gb and 128mb standard (I am fairly certain) with around a 300mhz processor. Today's imac can come with a 24" screen and a core 2 Duo, (and hopefully soon a quad core). The old Imac's were hard to get into, these are much easier and far more upgradable. These machines can be pushed hard, and still come through. The old imacs had a hard time running imovie and itunes at the same time. It is a crazy assertion to say that they are comparable speed or expandability wise, even with the bottleneck on ram (which I do dislike) it still can compete with daily tasks and some more complex tasks to the 4-core mac pro. The imac in its day could not say that. Even the g4 imac's when compared to the dual processor g4, couldn't compare.
That is why it is ridiculous.

 

[-hh]

I will have to play the devils advocate here a bit: Apple, despite displaying a very two faced attitude in practice, has actively displayed to the public that games are important.

Yes, but for those products where they're likely to be competing for real consumer dollars, namely in laptops and (some) the iMac

In recent keynotes we have seen both ID software and EA games come alongside with steve and promise mac support. Apple has a large section on their site dedicated to gaming. So as you and I say, the Mac Pro is the Ultimate macintosh desktop - it isn't presumptuous to say that apple is courting folks who would game with their top-of-the-line computer. NOW before you business folk crap on my head, Im just pointing it out... it is valid, but I'm not suggesting that the Mac Pro is designed for it.

The problem is that many gamer-centric folks complain about how few (and/or unsuitable, and/or "obsolete") GPU cards are OEM options for the Mac Pro, which either means that Apple isn't pursuing the gamer's market with the Mac Pro, or the ones doing the complaining are being somewhat unrealistic in their expectations for the latest and greatest cards making onto the extreme minority platform. As I've (repeatedly) said: where's the benchmarks for how it helps out in my non-gaming applications?

Secondly, there are many people attacking my post showing what I could build on newegg.

That exercise was meant simply to show what a mac pro costs relatively speaking,...

Understood, but its shortcoming fell victim to the perennial fallacy of these sorts of comparisons, namely that they're never 'equals' in terms of the total system. DIY will always "beat" OEM whenever the costs of assembly, warranty, software installs, troubleshooting, etc ... are all able to be ignored.

I think that it was telling that I was able to piece together a computer with the same base spec, PLUS ...

...plus hardware components, but MINUS a turnkey warranty, etc, etc. See above.

finally, I think it is relevant to factor in apple's cost to the debate. You can't just ignore factors because they don't suit you. I'm not pretending that Apple doesnt have other costs: they have to pay the company to assemble, develop and test the hardware, write drivers, market the product and provide boxes, software and manuals etc. I know that - but at the same time I'm also willing to consider the prices that they actually pay for the pieces they use.

Great! That means that for your DIY comparison, not only have you now agreed to budget for the touch labor and warranty, but also the rest of the cost-of-doing-business factors, including manufacturing line tooling amortization, risks, the present value of money, other long leadtime items, etc.

At the end of the day its all just discussion. People like -hh have shown that for them the mac pro is good value, and made a convincing case.

Even -hh is waiting for a refresh before he/she buys though... so the value can't be that strong

Its not a question of its current strength: it is perspective on future prospects and the subsequent risk:benefit of now versus later.

Since an even better value appears to be immanent, that's the upside benefit to waiting.

The only question then is if as a buyer I can afford to wait, so as to maximize my value. Short answer is yes.

Longer answer is that my primary need for upgunning is an upgrade in my photo gear of a dSLR based Underwater camera system.

-hh

 

[Salavat23]

The Mac Pro, at this time, is overpriced.

Currently, you can get:

Intel Q6600 - ~$200
8GB DDR2 800MHz RAM - ~$90
Western Digital WD6400AAKS 640GB HDD - ~$80
Samsung SH-S203B dual layer DVD burner - ~$20
Corsair VX550 PSU -~$90
Gigabyte GA-P45-UD3L -$90
ATI 4830 -~$95
Lian Li PC-7FW -~$120
OCZ Vendetta II CPU Cooler - $30

For around $815, you can get a much better system than the Quad Core Mac Pro. It has more ram, a much better GPU, a better CPU cooler, a larger hard drive, a better case (IMO), a faster DVD burner, and a faster CPU if overclocked. All for about 1/3 the price.

Want 8-cores for multimedia? Get two of these systems, and set-up a rendering farm. It will destroy a fully equipped 8-Core Mac Pro that costs over $3800 for about $1600.

 

[dukebound85]

but.... but..... bu....t they arent server chips or server ram lol

 

[Salavat23]

but.... but..... bu....t they arent server chips or server ram lol

So what?

The CPUs are no faster clock per clock in most applications, and the reliability of server ram is useless anyways. Unregistered DDR2 ram has proven to be very reliable, and even if something goes wrong, the modules are dirt cheap.

 

[dukebound85]

So what?

The CPUs are no faster clock per clock in most applications, and the reliability of server ram is useless anyways. Unregistered DDR2 ram has proven to be very reliable, and even if something goes wrong, the modules are dirt cheap.

i agree with you. i dont care for server parts....why i built a q6600 8800gt 8 gig ram hackintosh over a year ago

 

[sidewinder]

The Mac Pro, at this time, is overpriced.

Currently, you can get:

Intel Q6600 - ~$200
8GB DDR2 800MHz RAM - ~$90
Western Digital WD6400AAKS 640GB HDD - ~$80
Samsung SH-S203B dual layer DVD burner - ~$20
Corsair VX550 PSU -~$90
Gigabyte GA-P45-UD3L -$90
ATI 4830 -~$95
Lian Li PC-7FW -~$120
OCZ Vendetta II CPU Cooler - $30

For around $815, you can get a much better system than the Quad Core Mac Pro. It has more ram, a much better GPU, a better CPU cooler, a larger hard drive, a better case (IMO), a faster DVD burner, and a faster CPU if overclocked. All for about 1/3 the price.

Want 8-cores for multimedia? Get two of these systems, and set-up a rendering farm. It will destroy a fully equipped 8-Core Mac Pro that costs over $3800 for about $1600.

Someone stop the madness!!!

The Mac Pro is not over priced based on the hardware used to build the system. You are making an entirely different argument. Please figure that out.

Jeez....

S-

 

[Salavat23]

The Mac Pro is not over priced based on the hardware used to build the system. You are making an entirely different argument. Please figure that out.

Unless you are someone who likes paying more money for worse hardware, then yeah. But I'm trying to use logic here.

Whats better?

Better hardware for cheaper price? Or crappier hardware for more than 2x the cost?

And according to you, "madness" is trying to be a smart shopper? Than in that case, you must be a genius.

 

[nanofrog]

Unless you are someone who likes paying more money for worse hardware, then yeah. But I'm trying to use logic here.

Whats better?

Better hardware for cheaper price? Or crappier hardware for more than 2x the cost?

And according to you, "madness" is trying to be a smart shopper? Than in that case, you must be a genius.

No, it's that you're considering desktop and server/workstation parts equivalent.

They aren't. They're designed for a different job. To go the server/workstation, you pay a premium, as it's meant to operate 24/7 reliably. (Other features may be attractive as well, depending on specifics).

If you don't need it, and other features, such as ECC memory, skip it. In that specific instance, you'd be better off with desktop parts.

But please understand, that others do need them, and are aware that for them, it's a relative bargain, considering what other vendors charge for similar systems.

 

[Salavat23]

They aren't. They're designed for a different job. To go the server/workstation, you pay a premium, as it's meant to operate 24/7 reliably. (Other features may be attractive as well, depending on specifics).

Sever parts, consumer parts, meh. Its all the same. If Apple was aiming for 24/7 reliablility with the Mac Pro, they would not cut down on the cooling. It is unacceptable for the RAM and NB to be running as hot as they do in the Mac Pro.

And its also very easy to argue that consumer parts are superior to workstation parts in many aspects. They are cheaper, can run at much higher clocks/frequencies, there is more options for the parts, the warranties are easier to deal with, and upgrades are simpler and cheaper.

And just because a computer uses workstation/server grade CPUs and RAM does not always mean that it will be more reliable. Its more about the implementation of the components, like cooling, for example.

Unregistered DDR2 ram that is running at 30 degrees Celsius at full load will be more reliable in the long run that FB-DIMMs running at 50 degrees Celsius. Sure the FB-DIMMs can automatically correct errors, but its ability to do that over several years running at high temperatures slowly wears out.

Remember, that I am basing this on bang/buck. The Mac Pros are only worth the price within 2-3 months of their release. After that, its a rip-off because hardware prices fall while the cost of the machine remains the same.

 

[yadmonkey]

Mac Pros are expensive and if you put one together yourself, you'd save a few hundred dollars. Can't argue with that.

But then again, you wouldn't be paying for manufacturing, advertising, marketing, distribution, and a year of technical support. Apple's costs go way beyond the base price of their machines. Not to mention they are giving you iLife and OS X with it. And they want to make some profit on it? The nerve...

Yeah, you could make one cheaper, but it wouldn't have a beautiful aluminum enclosure. It probably wouldn't be as quiet either. And while you're at it, why don't you build the OS yourself. And write some programs equivalent to iLife too. Then turn around and sell them for less than the Mac Pro, pay for the marketing, pay for the inevitable customer support. See if you make money.

Then you can listen to whining consumers who feel entitled to your product for cheaper than you're selling it for.

 

[Salavat23]

Not to mention they are giving you iLife and OS X with it. And they want to make some profit on it? The nerve...

You think when you buy the bare parts, the companies selling them are not getting any profit? Of a certain percentage of every part which you buy, profit obviously goes to the manufacturers.

Yeah, you could make one cheaper, but it wouldn't have a beautiful aluminum enclosure.

Who said? There are tons on gorgeous Aluminum PC cases, many of which are of much greater quality than the Mac Pro case.

It probably wouldn't be as quiet either.

Who said? A PC case is only as quiet as the fans in it. With some good quality fans, you can have a <20dB system.

And while you're at it, why don't you build the OS yourself. And write some programs equivalent to iLife too. Then turn around and sell them for less than the Mac Pro, pay for the marketing, pay for the inevitable customer support. See if you make money.

That's taking it too far.

Then you can listen to whining consumers who feel entitled to your product for cheaper than you're selling it for.

Whatever.

Until one understands the true cost of manufacturing (or buying from OEMs) such a system, comments like yours are simply obsolete.

 

[yadmonkey]

That's taking it too far.

Why is that taking it too far? I agreed that you could manufacture your own hackintosh for cheaper, but you have to consider all of the other stuff when you look at the price Apple is charging...

• Development/R&D/QA
• Manufactuing
• Marketing
• Distribution
• Software development
• OS development
• Customer support for a year

If you don't want to pony up for a Mac Pro, then don't. They're not stopping you from building your own. They ARE trying to stop Psystar from selling their noisy boxes, but that's different.

All that other stuff costs Apple good money. Most prosumers are happy to pay the premium and get it all in one neat package without having to build and support it themselves. They don't want to do the research necessary to build one and support it themselves and probably wouldn't know where to start... they just want to buy the machine and run their pro apps on it because for prosumers, time is money. By the time they researched everything, bought it all, and built it themselves, they've probably lost the difference in billable hours.

 

[Salavat23]

you have to consider all of the other stuff when you look at the price Apple is charging...

• Development/R&D/QA
• Manufactuing
• Marketing
• Distribution
• Software development
• OS development
• Customer support for a year

Yeah, and individial part manufacutures charge you for that too in their price.

 

[ericsthename]

No, it's that you're considering desktop and server/workstation parts equivalent.

They aren't. They're designed for a different job. To go the server/workstation, you pay a premium, as it's meant to operate 24/7 reliably. (Other features may be attractive as well, depending on specifics).

If you don't need it, and other features, such as ECC memory, skip it. In that specific instance, you'd be better off with desktop parts.

But please understand, that others do need them, and are aware that for them, it's a relative bargain, considering what other vendors charge for similar systems.

Yeah, I think Fully buffered dimms are dead aren't they? At any rate, I havent seen any evidence of them coming to DDR3. Besides, apple has a server line, the xserve is the computer that many are arguing for with their comments. The mac pro could certainly stand to introduce some more options to its lineup.

 

[Tallest Skil]

Yeah, I think Fully buffered dimms are dead aren't they? At any rate, I havent seen any evidence of them coming to DDR3. Besides, apple has a server line, the xserve is the computer that many are arguing for with their comments. The mac pro could certainly stand to introduce some more options to its lineup.

Beckton will use DDR3 FB-DIMM2, but neither the XServe nor the Mac Pro will use Beckton, so that's moot.

 

[yadmonkey]

Yeah, and individial part manufacutures charge you for that too in their price.

Oooh... he employed the rolleyes!! Love it!!! That shows that your point is superior and mine is inane! Fantastic stuff really. The fascinating thing about that emoticon is that it expresses ego - nothing more. It's not about communication in the least. Pure ego and condescension.

Ahem... again, a prosumer - to whom the Mac Pro is targeted - doesn't want to have to support every component individually. Almost every prosumer wants it all put together and wants a single place for support for it all. Can you bring your hackintosh to the local B&M Apple store for a year? No.

A prosumer is usually a graphic artist, musician, scientist, etc. A prosumer doesn't want to know how to support their Mac because they are too busy using it to be productive. They are infinitely more interested in their craft and don't like distractions. If something goes wrong, they don't want to get the runaround from 6 different manufacturers, each of whom pass the buck to the other. Is the problem in the mobo, the RAM, the HDDs, the procs, or is it a software problem? The typical prosumer hasn't the time, energy, or know-how to figure that out. They want a single manufacturer to be accountable for such issues. If you don't see the value in that to the people who typically buy Mac Pros, then you're simply being obtuse.

No doubt you'll find a minor point to contest in my post and once again miss the overall point entirely. Oh well. Again, you're allowed to build your own. Nobody is stopping you. But it sounds more like you feel entitled to a Mac Pro for less. Why do you even want a MP when you can build such a wondrous machine for less? Answer me that at least.

 

[Salavat23]

No doubt you'll find a minor point to contest in my post and once again miss the overall point entirely. Oh well. Again, you're allowed to build your own. Nobody is stopping you. But it sounds more like you feel entitled to a Mac Pro for less. Why do you even want a MP when you can build such a wondrous machine for less? Answer me that at least.

That sounds very hypocritical for someone who missed the point of my above posts.

I said that at this current time, the Mac Pro is not worth it, and its best to build from a cost perspective. And, as I mentioned above, the Mac Pro is only worth its price within two-three months of launch.

Maybe you should read my posts twice next time. Or maybe even three times while you're at it.