Mac Pro To Continue Quad-Core Tradition? Woodcrest?

[FF_productions]

I think they will continue to sell PPC Quad until Adobe goes UB, unless Steve decides to snub Adobe.

I wonder about that one. At MacWorld, Steve said the current version of the Adobe Products just won't run fast enough for a professional, so I wonder if he will drop the PowerMac G5 that quickly. If he is going to keep the G5's around, he's going to have to cut those prices down because the Intels are likely to destroy them (in Universal Apps).

 

[Silentwave]

4-6 SATA2 (3Gbps) ports w/ RAID 0, 1 or 5 on any/all ports

Sata/3Gbps is not SATA 2. Its one of the myth-conceptions that their official website tries to debunk.

Personally i'd like to see Sata 2 in it. Perhaps 6Gbps anyone?

 

[KindredMAC]

I wonder about that one. At MacWorld, Steve said the current version of the Adobe Products just won't run fast enough for a professional, so I wonder if he will drop the PowerMac G5 that quickly. If he is going to keep the G5's around, he's going to have to cut those prices down because the Intels are likely to destroy them (in Universal Apps).

Makes sense.... the iMac was offered in both flavors before the PPC version was finally run dry.

I'll tell ya, CS 2 not running at pro speeds is really a huge downer for the MacIntels. I don't care how much RAM you put in the MacIntels and what processor you are using, Rosetta cannot come close to matching up with native speeds. God, I can't wait for CS 3.....

 

[~Shard~]

I'm sorry, but WHAT??? The whole idea behind the PPC is years newer than the x86 Intel architecture!!!!

I was speaking from Apple's perspective (Steve's RDF and all) and what they would like you to think - hence the quotes around "old".

 

[THX1139]

I said it in the last thread and I will say it here: There is no reason for apple to release a mini-tower between the iMac and Mac Pro. As of now, if Apple keeps the same pricing for the Mac Pro, there is only a $300 difference between the high end iMac and the low end Powermac. Where would this mini tower fit in? Sorry all of you mini tower fans, but its probably not going to happen.

Also, if this mini tower is semi-expandable like all of you say it will be, there will be no reason for people to buy the higher end iMac, because for less than $300 they can get an expandable machine.

Sorry, but your logic is flawed. What's to say that Apple won't release a low-end tower (Mac instead of MacPro) at the SAME price point as an iMac? You assume that people are only driven by money in their purchases. What about needs?? If you have a "Mac" around the same price as an iMac, it will target a different market. The average family would look at the Mac and the iMac and choose the iMac because it comes with a built-in screen and has plenty of power. Someone else might choose the Mac so that they can have freedom to expand and be able to choose their monitor etc. If you're an average consumer, you might look at the iMac and decide that's all the computer you need because it's an all-in-one package. However, you might be a prosumer and have special needs, but don't need or can't afford all the power that comes with MacPro. In short, I guess what I'm saying is that a small Mac tower (maybe with Conroe?) and an iMac are two completely different machines. The user won't choose one over the other based just on price.

Mac-mini (Merom) - entry level, consumer
iMac (Merom) - small business, consumer
Mac (Conroe) - small business, prosumer
MacPro (Woodcrest) - $erious prosumer, business, creative industry

 

[AidenShaw]

Okay, after rereading most of this thread, I think we're pretty much in a agreement for the most part.

Hopefully they'll come with a dual processor option so we can take advantage of quad core intel macs, and more...

Actually, these discussions would be much clearer if the terms "CPU" and "processor" were banned, and we only used "core" and "socket".

"CPU" and "processor" are confusing, sometimes people use them to mean "core", and sometime to mean "socket".

We even get posts that say that a quad-core single-socket doesn't need an SMP-capable operating system.

 

[brianus]

You assume that people are only driven by money in their purchases. What about needs??

You're forgetting the other salient point mentioned earlier, that the way Apple works, it's all about what they decide you need. They figure that at this point, the only people interested in expandability, the "enthusiasts" and "pro's", can probably afford to shell out a little extra, so they're not going to bother releasing something like that that could cut into sales of their designated "consumer" product.

Mac-mini (Merom) - entry level, consumer
iMac (Merom) - small business, consumer
Mac (Conroe) - small business, prosumer
MacPro (Woodcrest) - $erious prosumer, business, creative industry

Why not, instead:

Mac mini - entry level, consumer [$600-$800]
iMac - consumer [$1000s]
Mac Pro Core 2 Duo (Conroe) - prosumer, lower-maintenance creative industry (less intensive graphic design type stuff) [$2000s]
Mac Pro Core 2 Xeon (2xWoodcrest) - "enthusiast", high-maintenance creative industry (video etc) [$3000s]

Btw... I know of "small businesses" which use Mac minis, iMacs, Power Macs, you name it. I'm not sure if that label really applies anymore.

 

[mwswami]

All Quad Core line up for Mac Pro

Given that even the entry level laptops are dual core, I believe that we will see an all Quad-core lineup for the Mac Pro - i.e. dual Woodcrests across the board.

Entry: 2 x Xeon 5130 (2.0 GHz) $2199
Mid: 2 x Xeon 5140 (2.33 GHz) $2699
High: 2 x Xeon 5150 (2.67 GHz) $3499

The 5160 will be available only as a BTO option (+ $500) on the High end. Note that the 5130, 5140, 5150, and 5150 are expected to be priced at $316, $455, $690, and $851 respectively.

 

[puckhead193]

woodcrest will be released on June 26th...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060609...WlYuBkjtBAF;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

 

[Multimedia]

8 Cores Will Be A Start

*Sigh* I could so use an 8 core machine right now (16 gb max ram, fill it up with 8 gb) Not for the "My machine is the fastest" reason, but with all the virtual software instruments nowadays, its a necessity.

Yeah me too for crushing EyeTV HD recordings to mp4 which right now takes more than real time in a 2 stage process. Goal: less than one minute per process - no matter how long the original is.

 

[aswitcher]

Why not, instead:

Mac mini - entry level, consumer [$600-$800]
iMac - consumer [$1000s]
Mac Pro Core 2 Duo (Conroe) - prosumer, lower-maintenance creative industry (less intensive graphic design type stuff) [$2000s]
Mac Pro Core 2 Xeon (2xWoodcrest) - "enthusiast", high-maintenance creative industry (video etc) [$3000s]

[/i]

I really hope Apple do "plug" this iMac PowerMac gap with such a change in lineup...

 

[A is jump]

I wish i had had your g5 tower then, because the rev1 one I was using the last year was a pile of dog pooh and was no different than my experience running our work's Windows machines, ie when will it let me down next? Although quiet in operation, those fans came on after crashes and could have lifted the building as well as the tower. Obviously i had a lemon because my Powerbook is an amazing bit of kit, and I wont ever buy a new release Mac again, but it was a bad experience allround, and an embarrassment having persuaded the company to get me a bonmbproof Mac!

Well thats Rev As for you. Thats exactly the reason I got a powerbook 8 months ago, because even though I wanted a macbookpro, I would rather have a slower laptop with no significant flaws.

Silly? Why? If you need that much hard drive space, how else are you going to do it with fewer drives?

If you put the biggest drives available in your G5, I can still have 2.5x as much drive space in my G4. Partitioning is like having six SMALL drives.

Lots of memory slots is nice, and it is fairly quiet. But it seems like most of the reason people go so gaga over them is just because they look cool. Sorry, in a tower I want functionality, not pretty.

I guess for me, having 2 drives built in, and using external drives to store Data is fine.... I use my G5 with Logic Pro, and some of the song files will get very large... but never have I had a project that required that I have anywhere near the kind of space you are talking about. just glancing around you could have 1.5 Terabytes of storage. without adding a third drive (which is possible http://www.maxupgrades.com/istore/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=149)
how 'bout 2.25terabytes?
and if I WAS using logic with a huge project that required hard drive space...I would probably be unhappy with the performance of my single G5 and I'd probably have to buy another G5 and set it up as a Node... in which case I'd have three more drives.

I realize that the G5 cant hold as many drives as a g4, but I guess I dont understand, with the options I've presented, why it is a big deal to only be able to have 2.25 terabytes of storage. What kind of stuff are you doing that you really need 5.625Tb of Storage at your fingertips?

 

[Multimedia]

All Quad Core Lineup Is Not An Impossibility

Given that even the entry level laptops are dual core, I believe that we will see an all Quad-core lineup for the Mac Pro - i.e. dual Woodcrests across the board.

Entry: 2 x Xeon 5130 (2.0 GHz) $2199
Mid: 2 x Xeon 5140 (2.33 GHz) $2699
High: 2 x Xeon 5150 (2.67 GHz) $3499

The 5160 will be available only as a BTO option (+ $500) on the High end. Note that the 5130, 5140, 5150, and 5150 are expected to be priced at $316, $455, $690, and $851 respectively.

This is what I thought in February. You are reminding me it could happen that way. And this Winter '07 the whole linup could be moved to faster Kentsfields without Apple having to lower the prices. So Swami makes sense I hope is right. If not now, next Winter '07 for sure.

And Aiden could have his mid-range lineup full of Conroes this way too.

 

[novagamer]

This is what I thought in February. You are reminding me it could happen that way. And this Winter '07 the whole linup could be moved to faster Kentsfields without Apple having to lower the prices. So Swami makes sense I hope is right. If not now, next Winter '07 for sure.

And Aiden could have his mid-range lineup full of Conroes this way too.

I didn't consider that the highest option might be a BTO, but I think that makes the most sense. If these are socketed, then these machines will be fun to tinker with.

 

[shawnce]

Hundreds?

Conroe E6700 (2.67GHz, 1066MHz, 4MB) - $530
Xeon 5150 (2.67GHz, 1333MHz, 4MB) - $690

The Woodcrest requires a different chipset then the Conroe which can easily add another 100 to 200 dollars (if not more) to price difference.

 

[mwswami]

This is what I thought in February. You are reminding me it could happen that way. And this Winter '07 the whole linup could be moved to faster Kentsfields without Apple having to lower the prices. So Swami makes sense I hope is right. If not now, next Winter '07 for sure.

And Aiden could have his mid-range lineup full of Conroes this way too.

I assume you meant Clovertown (2 Woodcrests in the same package) instead of Kentfield (2 Conroes in the same package). Both of these are expected to be released end of 2006 or early Q1 2007. Even though Kentfield will provide 4 cores, I believe Mac Pro and XServe lineups will choose to support 2 Clovertowns, atleast in the top models.

Anyone know if the Clovertown is going to be drop-in compatible with Woodcrest systems? Clovertown will be part of a newer platform and may choose a different socket. Also, the TDP for the Clovertown is expected to be 80-120W as compared to 65-80W for the Woodcrest.

 

[THX1139]

Given that even the entry level laptops are dual core, I believe that we will see an all Quad-core lineup for the Mac Pro - i.e. dual Woodcrests across the board.

Entry: 2 x Xeon 5130 (2.0 GHz) $2199
Mid: 2 x Xeon 5140 (2.33 GHz) $2699
High: 2 x Xeon 5150 (2.67 GHz) $3499

The 5160 will be available only as a BTO option (+ $500) on the High end. Note that the 5130, 5140, 5150, and 5150 are expected to be priced at $316, $455, $690, and $851 respectively.

Your prices are probably too low. For example, Boxx is releasing the 5130 at $3000. I doubt Apple will be go lower than that in a workstation and that's too high for entry level.

Trying to guess Apples Intel line-up is a major crap shoot. The problem besides having so many chips hit the market, is that they are coming out staggered over the summer/fall. The question is, would Apple be willing to wait for Conroe at WWDC or just go all Woodcre$t now? If they split the line-up into different processors/motherboards, then they have to have a staggered release. Then what happens if they hold off until end of August? They will lose sales and the date for Kentsfield will be less than 6 months. If they release an all Woodcrest in their pro-line.. assuming they keep a similar line-up to the current G5's, then where does Conroe fit in? They certainly wouldn't shift everything to Kentsfield in '07? Would Apple keep redoing their line-up to fit the chip market, or will they cherry pick what they want and leave the rest? I mean, when Conroe does become available, it doesn't mean Apple has to use it in their pro towers.

All this musing makes me think they will issue transistion machines until the whole chip line is out. I don't think we will see the big picture of the transition until '07. That is unless Apple is willing to have multiple configurations and change the line-up every 6 months or less. Not Apples style. If they are forced to start with Woodcrest, they will stick with it. Conroe will only be used in the consumer line if at all.

 

[Squire]

I think that would be the whole point. Especially with only one Conroe processor in it, a smaller form factor would be ideal. Plus, I personally believe a gap exists between the iMac and the PowerMac where a product like this could fit. I think for many people, a PowerMac, especially the quad beast, is far too much for their needs, power-wise and cost-wise. Yet the iMac, although very powerful, might not be the ideal choice for some people due to its lack of upgradeability (apart from the memory). For instance, I really only need an iMac for my needs, yet if my HDD fails or if my built-in screen dies, I’m pretty much screwed. I can’t replace those components, nor can I upgrade them if I ever wanted to in the future to extends the machine’s life. If my machine goes, my perfectly good display is useless, and vice versa. A “mini PowerMac” would be ideal for me.

Yet, you want something with a little more-- in terms of computing balls-- than a Mac mini. I see your point.

-Squire

 

[mwswami]

Your prices are probably too low. For example, Boxx is releasing the 5130 at $3000. I doubt Apple will be go lower than that in a workstation and that's too high for entry level.

I haven't looked at Boxx, but an entry level Dell Precision 490 can be configured for about $2000 with dual 2 core Xeons 5060 (3.2 GHz, 1066 FSB, 2x2Mb cache, list price on pricegrabber = $400). Ofcourse 5060 is not Woodcrest but the rest of the components (dual socket motherboard, fb-dimms, etc) are going to be the same.

All this musing makes me think they will issue transistion machines until the whole chip line is out. I don't think we will see the big picture of the transition until '07. That is unless Apple is willing to have multiple configurations and change the line-up every 6 months or less. Not Apples style. If they are forced to start with Woodcrest, they will stick with it. Conroe will only be used in the consumer line if at all.

I agree, it's a mess right now with too many new chips out there. But when I look at the new Dell Workstations (490 and 690) and the PowerEdge servers (1950 and 2950), it seems to me that their design will continue for over a year. Ofcourse, this assumes that Clovertown is pin compatible with Woodcrest. Note that since they are supporting Xeons 50xx, they have designed the systems with a much larger TDP than is necessary for the Woodcrests but it will come in handy for Clovertown.

 

[kered22]

I believe I read it on here, but am not sure (tried a search and couldn't find it). But wasn't there a rumor (late 2005, early 2006 or so) that Apple was trying to pressure Intel to push up the release of Woodcrest to use it in the MacPro? At the time Intel wasn't willing, but of course the market conditions are always the deciding factor.

 

[Squozen]

the current imac is powerful but i don't think its powerful enough to run pro apps, like FCS, well

Think again. The iMac is a real screamer. I'm running Logic Pro on mine with no problems at all, and it's performing just as well as it would have on a dual-pro PowerMac.

 

[Multimedia]

Kentsfields May Replace Dual Woddies For More Profit Per System

I assume you meant Clovertown (2 Woodcrests in the same package) instead of Kentfield (2 Conroes in the same package). Both of these are expected to be released end of 2006 or early Q1 2007. Even though Kentfield will provide 4 cores, I believe Mac Pro and XServe lineups will choose to support 2 Clovertowns, atleast in the top models.

Anyone know if the Clovertown is going to be drop-in compatible with Woodcrest systems? Clovertown will be part of a newer platform and may choose a different socket. Also, the TDP for the Clovertown is expected to be 80-120W as compared to 65-80W for the Woodcrest.

No. I meant Kentsfield since that would be a less expensive solution replacing the more expensive Dual Woddies allowing Apple to keep the pricing while making more money per system come Winter '07.

I agree that Dual Clovertowns are in the cards for the top though. I'm sure Apple wants to get an eight core system on the market ASAP. No matter what the price, it will be a hit among the pros who can't get enough power no matter what Apple and Intel do.

 

[poppe]

Sadly I can't see any reason to why Apple would release an Mid Range Tower. There might be a market place for like Dell, but not really Apple. You can claim numbers and all but unless Apple is gonna make money by the bucket loads they won't release it. It might apply to a few other markets, but a few other is not a whole new market that has cash filled pockets and ready to go.

However I wish so badly they would release one. I want one merely for that same reason I would buy a PC that is very expandable. Because I'm dirt pore, but as each pay check comes in I can upgrade piece by piece. I'd love an iMac but I dont want to be so stuck in. I get that you can upgrade, but you can only so much. The mid range should have the sky as the limit. Oh a new graphics card is out? Put it in!!.

Like I said that doesn't sound like Apple at all thought! But I'll dream on.

 

[heisetax]

Motherboard size

Nice server board but the dimensions of 13"X13" is still roughly 2/3 the size of the G5 board.

Apple usually put in more memory slots in their PowerMac compared to the Windows units.

 

[081440]

The G5 design was a disaster. It looked nice, but It lacked functionality compared to similar PC workstation designs.

uhh... what do you mean?

Works great as far as I'm concerned (I mean every so often the fans rev up to jet engine level but that's the PowerPC G5 for ya)

please explain how Apple can make it better without adding a bunch of junk on the front.