Mac Pro To Continue Quad-Core Tradition? Woodcrest?

[Multimedia]

Quads Are DEAD SILENT All The Time - Add HD Expansion Bays Inside + A Second External

uhh... what do you mean?

Works great as far as I'm concerned (I mean every so often the fans rev up to jet engine level but that's the PowerPC G5 for ya)

please explain how Apple can make it better without adding a bunch of junk on the front.

Those of you without a Quad should know that it is DEAD SILENT all the time. Only my Cubes are quieter. Seriously.

A second 5.25" Front Port and room for more 3.5" PATA and SATA drives would help a lot. Put 4 SATA ports on the MB and add a second PATA port. Total 7 drives inside for over 3 Terabytes of space - the final frontier.

 

[081440]

Well thats Rev As for you. Thats exactly the reason I got a powerbook 8 months ago, because even though I wanted a macbookpro, I would rather have a slower laptop with no significant flaws.



I guess for me, having 2 drives built in, and using external drives to store Data is fine.... I use my G5 with Logic Pro, and some of the song files will get very large... but never have I had a project that required that I have anywhere near the kind of space you are talking about. just glancing around you could have 1.5 Terabytes of storage. without adding a third drive (which is possible http://www.maxupgrades.com/istore/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=149)
how 'bout 2.25terabytes?
and if I WAS using logic with a huge project that required hard drive space...I would probably be unhappy with the performance of my single G5 and I'd probably have to buy another G5 and set it up as a Node... in which case I'd have three more drives.

I realize that the G5 cant hold as many drives as a g4, but I guess I dont understand, with the options I've presented, why it is a big deal to only be able to have 2.25 terabytes of storage. What kind of stuff are you doing that you really need 5.625Tb of Storage at your fingertips?

Actually you can add far more HDs in a G5, just with third party hardware and an SATA card. You can add at least three just ahead of the CPU fans just using one pre-made kit available.

 

[DavidCar]

Anyone know if the Clovertown is going to be drop-in compatible with Woodcrest systems? Clovertown will be part of a newer platform and may choose a different socket. Also, the TDP for the Clovertown is expected to be 80-120W as compared to 65-80W for the Woodcrest.

This article assumes they will be socket compatible:

http://techreport.com/etc/2006q2/woodcrest/index.x?pg=1

The problem with Clovertown is that it will be two Woodcrest chips in one socket, which will require lowering the FSB speed (see article), and require twice the heat dissipation capability.

As for the equivalence of a Conroe system to a single chip Woodcrest system, I understand Woodcrest uses FB_DIMMs, but I didn't think Conroe did.

 

[Multimedia]

A PATA Drive Fits Above The SuperDrive Running On It's Bus

Actually you can add far more HDs in a G5, just with third party hardware and an SATA card. You can add at least three just ahead of the CPU fans just using one pre-made kit available.

And a PATA Drive Fits above the SuperDrive running on it's bus.

 

[AidenShaw]

A supercomputer is... (Or "Unrealistic Goal")

Goal: less than one minute per process - no matter how long the original is.

I can't find the reference, but I believe that it has been said that Seymour Cray once said that "a supercomputer is a computer that turns a compute problem into an I/O problem".

So, with an infinite number of cores, and an infinite number of disks on an infinite number of independent I/O channels, your goal is attainable.

In the real world, with compressed 1080i MPEG-2 at about 8 GB/hour (that's what MCE records at "best") you'd need 133 MB/sec on the read channel to do one hour in one minute, and say half that on the H.264 (I assume that "mp4" really means H.264) write channel - or 200 MB/sec sustained disk bandwidth.

If you want to spend $10K on multiple parallel SCSI RAID or $50K on Fibre Channel hardware RAID - I can build it for you

If you want to do 2 hours in a minute, I think that it can be done for $200K for disks and controllers. (I just bought a $150K disk array with quad 4 Gbps FC ports, in the right config it might be able to sustain that load as long as you don't want fault tolerant RAID.)

 

[A is jump]

Actually you can add far more HDs in a G5, just with third party hardware and an SATA card. You can add at least three just ahead of the CPU fans just using one pre-made kit available.

There you go! another option, eats another slot... but not a huge deal.
Apple didnt Design it to have 6 hard drives in it.. but hey you could fit 'em in there and make it work. the PMG5 design is by no means flawless, but it combines a sleek look, with a very powerful and a reasonably expandable computer, that is a difficult thing to do.
That being said, I look forward to their next design as well.
Thus far I feel there computers look better and better every time the change them. Well... with one exception, I thought the G4 imac was way cuter than the new one. but they never would have put the G5 in that enclosure.

 

[heisetax]

Prices Have Been Higher

I said it in the last thread and I will say it here: There is no reason for apple to release a mini-tower between the iMac and Mac Pro. As of now, if Apple keeps the same pricing for the Mac Pro, there is only a $300 difference between the high end iMac and the low end Powermac. Where would this mini tower fit in? Sorry all of you mini tower fans, but its probably not going to happen.

Also, if this mini tower is semi-expandable like all of you say it will be, there will be no reason for people to buy the higher end iMac, because for less than $300 they can get an expandable machine.

Prices have been $100 to $300 higher for the same level model. This is unlike the lowering of prices for some recent models like the 17" PoerBook. This geives more price room. Apple seems to have more luck with low end models. That would point to no additional mid-level models. Plus they wanted to keep their group of models smaller & simpler. The 1." MacBook replace the 12" & 14" iBook & the 12" PowerBook. This cut out 2 models.

If the new top level Intel PowerMac or as some think it will be called, the Intel MacPro, comes in at $4,000 then there will be room for a mid-level Intel PowerMac. If so that may also mean a Conroe for that model.

 

[heisetax]

Drives in a G4 PowerMac

Could you really fit 6 drives in a G4? I have to say, thats is a lot of drives... seems almost silly to have that many. I just put the biggest drives i could find in my g5 and partitioned them. its like having 6 drives. You sure could put a lot of memory in them. Didnt have a lot of cardslots... but enough for me.
I think the design is very sleek, almost majestic. The cooling system is large and complex, but its quiet. I am anoyied to no end everytime i use a pc, because I can hear the fan.

I dont really care what they do with the upcoming release... but the G5 was a great design.

My MDD G4 PowerMac had factory room for 4 HD & 2 externally accessible 5.25" drive slots. For short periods of time I also installed 1 or 2 hard drives above the 5.25" drives. I didn't have any temperature reading equipment to check temperature. For that reason I didn't run the drives for long periods of times. But the room is there.

Bill the TaxMan

 

[dagger01]

Very bad idea!

Actually you can add far more HDs in a G5, just with third party hardware and an SATA card. You can add at least three just ahead of the CPU fans just using one pre-made kit available.

There is a reason that mod you speak of voids your warranty, if you hadn't noticed. Adding a heat source (like hard drives) into the air stream ahead of the processors, you're inviting thermal failure, if not shut down. It's akin to putting a small space heater in front of your Power Mac G5. Not on full blast, and not directed right at it, but close enough to heat the incoming air above 72 F ... well above.

Seriously, if you need additional hard drive space, go external. There are SATA external controllers and drive enclosures available for the Mac that will give you the performance you may be looking for (>800 Mbps), without voiding your warranty and causing the premature demise of your investment due to thermal failure of components. I think you will find this to be something that even other Intel PC makers start doing in the not too distant future. There is a reason why hard drives are one of the first things to fail in most PC cases; inadequate cooling/air flow. Today's hard drives, especially those running at high RPMs generate a lot of heat. Not as much as RAM does today, but it's still a significant amount; enough to contribute to thermal failure of the drive or other components inside the case if not dissipated properly. This is not to say that all external cases are built well either. If you skimp on cost here, and don't get a five year warranty on the drives themselves, you're asking for trouble, especially, if you consider your data to be "critical" to you. I'm not going to look like an advertiser and give specific vendor examples in a public forum, but some simple research on your part will point to some obvious answers.

To speak on topic, the new Mac Pros are shaping up to be some ass kicking hardware. I expect to see a slightly wider set of product choices based on rumors and public information about Intel's upcoming products. I do think there will be Woodcrest designs, and an 8-way system available after Q1 2007. The initial products will probably be in the two and four CPU per box range with 64-bit processors and PCI-Express on the motherboard (I don't think we'll see many, if any, PCI/PCI-X slots). I'm still hazy on the memory architecture, but with the flack they've taken for the poor hardware memory controller on the original G5 Power Mac, I'm sure they will over compensate for that short coming in the Intel debut. It will also be interesting to see if these machines ship with ATI or the new nVidia quad SLI GeForce 7950 GX2 as a BTO option. As for case design, I think they'll be sticking with aluminum, but doubt it will look exactly like the Power Mac G5. Think variations on a theme.

As the release date gets closer, I'm sure more holes will get poked in the curtain shrouding the actual system details. I'll be sitting in the keynote when it gets announced, so I'm not too worried about it. Having an idea about what you're getting for Christmas, but not the full details, always makes opening the present more gratifying. :-D

 

[RichP]

I think an all-quad future may be reasonable; as it was said, these things will most likely have a serious distance in performance from the other machines in the apple lineup; and a conroe dual core isnt going to be THAT different than the memron.

Question is, if Apple decides to use Woodcrest, and its released the end of this month..do we wait for new macs at WWDC, or do they get released sooner, right when the Woodcrest is the new rage?

And a little off topic, I checked out BOXX...16 Core AMD! OMG WTF!

 

[AidenShaw]

I'm still hazy on the memory architecture, but with the flack they've taken for the poor hardware memory controller on the original G5 Power Mac, I'm sure they will over compensate for that short coming in the Intel debut.

Don't be hazy, look:

Apple is just putting the Intel chipsets into their systems, there's no longer any mystery. Intel's Woodies will use the Blackford Northbridge. Want specs, go to Intel (http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/5000x/index.htm) and read the specs now.

You can know what Apple is going to release without waiting for The Steve® to say "one more thing"....

 

[AidenShaw]

Question is, if Apple decides to use Woodcrest, and its released the end of this month..do we wait for new macs at WWDC, or do they get released sooner, right when the Woodcrest is the new rage?

Yes, for both.

Since Apple released the MacBook without even a press event, one should realize that the the times they are a changin'.

Since everyone is expecting Woodies by the end of the month, Apple (aka "The Ego®") knows that "one more thing" will be greeted by a mass of yawns as WWDC if it's only a Woody Xserve or PowerMac re-hash.

So, Aiden predicts that the Woody will come out by the end of June, along with all the other Intel vendors announcing Woodcrest systems.

For WWDC? Clearly we need something special, so

The New Form-Factor Dual-Core Conroe Mini-Tower/Pizza-Box Is A Certainty​

And a little off topic, I checked out BOXX...16 Core AMD! OMG WTF!

No AMD in Apple's near future. Think Clovertown and Dunnington.

 

[Demoman]

Apple has made the iMac better, so it has to come up with new ways to differentiate from the MacPro.

The iMac NOW includes: (this used to require a PowerMac)
- External DVI for dual-monitor support
- Dual-Core Processing

The MacPro at a minimum will provide everything the iMac does, plus:
- PCI slots for expansion
- Additional Hard Drive options
- Hopefully DUAL - dual-core chips (Woodcrest)

If all the MacPro becomes is an "expandable" iMac, that could be an issue. I see the iMac being a pretty good platform for many small business users. Perhaps the MacPro just becomes a platform for the SERIOUS horsepower user (e.g. Quark, Final Cut, Aperture, Illustrator).

I personally would love to see TWO form factors in a new "MacPro"
1. A full sized tower like today. Supports QUAD processors and everything you can throw at it.

2. A "mini-tower". Bigger than the cube, perhaps only 2 slots (one for Video, one for "future"). And a couple of hard drive bays. This would be the perfect "step up" for iMac users that need more expandability. This could just be dual-core chips like the iMac, just with more expandability. I personally would pay a small premium over the iMac for this capability.

my 2 cents....

Two form factors would be nice for us customers; more choice is usually better. But, my many years experience in fabrication, machining and manufacturing leads me to conclude this would add too much cost for the benefit. I cannot believe sales would increase enough to justify the hit they would take in the COGS.

 

[Demoman]

The fact that you compare the iMac and Mac Pro shows that you don't get it.

There's no "between" the iMac and the tower, they are two different models. Might as well talk about a model between the macbook and tower.

The slot for the mini tower is to fill the big gap between the mini and the tower, currently $1200.

The iMac is great for a certain market, but not an option for other users. Some people want some degree of expandability and upgradability for a reasonable price. There's no reason apple couldn't release a mini tower that costs LESS than the pricier iMacs. There's a big reason for apple to do it - there are consumers that want it and would buy it. However, it would probably take away some sales from other products, so they probably won't do it.

I think both of you made good points and essentially the same one. The first poster's post focused on the economics of competing against sales of their other products and you restated the same thing at the end of yours. But, there does seem to be a market for a new Mini-Tower configuration. It that can increase sales, then it maybe is not as important as revenues lost to the high-end iMac?

 

[ammon]

I wish Apple would have waited to use 64-bit exclusively in all their Intel products. It would have been so much nice to focus on one 64-bit OS for the x86 architecture.

As it is now, they have to work on the following:
32-bit PowerPC
64-bit PowerPC
32-bit x86 (Intel)
64-bit x86 (soon to be released)

Oh well! I guess they like doing more work than is needed!

 

[JesterJJZ]

Just gimmie something with at least 3 hard drive bays. 2 optical bays would be nice too.

 

[BenRoethig]

you never explain how the G5 case was not functional. most WinPC users i know were always impressed with the G3/G4 and G5 case.

Only
4 USB ports
4 expansion slots
2 hard drive bays
1 optical drive bay
No external 3.5" bays

If it wasn't for the dual CPUs and 8gb of available RAM, you'd be think I was talking about a $400 Dell and not a machine five times that price.

 

[BenRoethig]

You're forgetting the other salient point mentioned earlier, that the way Apple works, it's all about what they decide you need. They figure that at this point, the only people interested in expandability, the "enthusiasts" and "pro's", can probably afford to shell out a little extra, so they're not going to bother releasing something like that that could cut into sales of their designated "consumer" product.[/i]

That pretty much sums up why Apple, with all its innovation, only sells 4 out of every 100 computers. It's not about price or "ignorant stupid PC users", it's about Apple wanting to micro-manage every detail right down to what you use and how you use it.

 

[Peace]

Yes, for both.

Since Apple released the MacBook without even a press event, one should realize that the the times they are a changin'.

Since everyone is expecting Woodies by the end of the month, Apple (aka "The Ego®") knows that "one more thing" will be greeted by a mass of yawns as WWDC if it's only a Woody Xserve or PowerMac re-hash.

So, Aiden predicts that the Woody will come out by the end of June, along with all the other Intel vendors announcing Woodcrest systems.

For WWDC? Clearly we need something special, so

The New Form-Factor Dual-Core Conroe Mini-Tower/Pizza-Box Is A Certainty​

You're getting warm....

MacServer w/ Intel Os X Server 10.4.7(8) end of June/Beginning of July


30th Anniversary Mac @ WWDC2006

 

[Multimedia]

How About Merom MacBook Pros Too? Or Not 'Til Paris Apple Expo September 12th

Yes, for both.

Since Apple released the MacBook without even a press event, one should realize that the the times they are a changin'.

Since everyone is expecting Woodies by the end of the month, Apple (aka "The Ego®") knows that "one more thing" will be greeted by a mass of yawns as WWDC if it's only a Woody Xserve or PowerMac re-hash.

So, Aiden predicts that the Woody will come out by the end of June, along with all the other Intel vendors announcing Woodcrest systems.

For WWDC? Clearly we need something special, so

The New Form-Factor Dual-Core Conroe Mini-Tower/Pizza-Box Is A Certainty​

No AMD in Apple's near future. Think Clovertown and Dunnington.

I hope you're right. That would be very cool for Apple to gain market share. How About Merom MacBook Pros Too at the August 7 WWDC SteveNote? Or perhaps Paris Apple Expo September 12th after Merom ships toward the end of August? In 2003, Steve introduced the all new Aluminum 15" PowerBook G4's at that venue.

 

[BlizzardBomb]

The Woodcrest requires a different chipset then the Conroe which can easily add another 100 to 200 dollars (if not more) to price difference.

Oh ok. So with the PowerMac G5 they should of had a Dual 1.8GHz G4 alongside it and say "We've saved hundreds and the only real difference is the FSB!".

 

[it5five]

I think you get it too!

The idea of Apple dedicating resources to a mini-tower is just stupid. What type of expandability are you looking for? More hard drives? You can do that with an iMac. A second monitor? You can do that with an iMac. The only think I can think of that you can't do with an iMac is change the video card.

The reason the Cube did not succeed was that it was to close to the Mac tower in price point and features. Did it look cool? Yes. Could it do most everything a tower could do? Yes. But at the end of the day it was the full tower that consumers bought not the Cube.

The arguments against the iMac is just stupid. If the monitor dies, you're screwed. Duh! If the video card died on a mini tower I would be screwed also!

I was being sarcastic in response to somebody else. I do not believe that Apple will release a mini tower, at least not for a long while.

I would love to see one, as I would buy that over the Mac Pro (I'm a student, so it's hard for me to shell out tons of money), but I'm not holding my breath for it. Whatever, we'll see what happens at WWDC '06.

 

[SPUY767]

The G5 design was a disaster. It looked nice, but It lacked functionality compared to similar PC workstation designs.

Wha?

 

[SPUY767]

With Kentsfield and Cloverton coming out soon after this first batch of 64-bit procs, I definitely see that happening.

Only a matter of time before we see some Dunnington PowerMacs!



Yes, the MacBook got a bit of a facelift and of course the built-in iSight, etc., but I was referring to a whole new design. I would argue that the new MacBooks aren't that much aesthetically different from their predecessors, but perhaps that's just my perception of things....

Who the heck needs a case redesign anyway. Thinkpads have looked exactly the same, except for playing hopscotch with the IO, for about 7 years. Naturally, I'm kidding, but the G5 towers are brilliant industrial design. That case needs to go into a museum.

 

[SPUY767]

People out there seem to have this thought that the new Mac Pro won't have any heat issues. I think IBM really got us screwed up and gun shy about heat.

All the new Macs with Intel so far have had reports that they are hotter than their PPC ancestors. My MacBook runs a hell of a lot hotter than my iBook ever did.

My personal belief is that the Mac Pro will have only some minor changes to the overall look of the Power Mac G5 based on two facts:

1) There have been no drastic changes to any of the MacIntels yet, probably to help with blending in the older PPC Macs with the newer Intel Macs. The MacBook is probably the most severe, but from across the room I have to look hard to see if my wife is using our iBook or MacBook if I am seeing it closed or opened from the back.

2) These new Intels will still kick off some major heat. They will need to have airflow similar to what is needed for the PPC G5's to start off with. I say give it 2 Intel generations before we see a drastic change to the Mac Pro, so probably around next spring/summer we could see a brand spankin new Mac Pro design..... Hmmmm just in time for Adobe CS 3 it seems.....

The top-end G5 had an advanced airflow design with a full liquid cooling system. I build XEON servers right now that are happy to run in tight quarters with air cooling. The laptops, yes, those are a little warmer now, but also much, much faster. The top-end Pro towers won't even come close to being as warm as they were on the G5. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the TDP on the Woodcrest should come in at right around 80W under load, about the same as a single-core G5. The Intel chip should run substantially cooler at 80W as I have a Dempsey that draws nearly 140W and is quite friendly on air cooling.

" I have a Dempsey that draws nearly 140W"

This is what you get for reading a profusion of computer articles at 6am on 3 hours sleep. I do not have a Dempsey as I believe they have just been released. I have a Paxville-based system. It doesn't generate a terrible amount of heat, but it is dissappointingly slow as its based on Netburst and at 2.8Ghz I know children who can do math faster. The new crop of Chips, Dempsey, Woodcrest, and Clovertown, should be much, mcuh snappier as they are moving away from the achilles heel that is the Netburst Architecture. not to mention that the aforementioned trio will have higher clock speeds. Sadly, these models will no feature HT, no 8 Simultaneous threads. . . However, they will have VT (virtualization) which chould make quite a splash as far as boot-camp is concerned in the high end models. Go figure. . .