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This is the dumbest online conversation ever.
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Yeah, totally agree. Instead of keeping the product line simple, and charging premium but fair prices as under Jobs, they’ve done the opposite.
They now have a silly complex product line and the majority of it is hugely overpriced.
And buggy software to go with it.

keeping the product line simple would put Apple out of business. It’s a good thing that you don’t make important business decisions.
 
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Don’t be stupid. How would it?

I think it’s more that Apple wouldn’t have grown to the size it is today without offering more products at different price points in order to cater to a wider demographic of users.

The iPhone and iPad are great examples. You have great entry level options in the iPhone 8 and iPad 7, to the flagships (11 pro max and 2018 iPad Pro).

Steve Jobs did what was best for the Apple of his era, just as Tim Cook is doing what is best for the Apple of today.
 
I see an easy solution: put wheels on one side and feet on the other; so you can roll it arround like an expensive-ass wheelbarrow.

Or a walker. Interesting idea...

These wheels are nice looking, and a hell of a lot cheaper.

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Honestly the wheels are not the worst thing apple did on the Mac Pro. It was the choice to release it using Intel chips instead of the much superior AMD ones. For a Pro machine that's supposed to be cutting edge, the processor is anything but.
 
Honestly the wheels are not the worst thing apple did on the Mac Pro. It was the choice to release it using Intel chips instead of the much superior AMD ones. For a Pro machine that's supposed to be cutting edge, the processor is anything but.

But given how long this has taken Apple to birth this thing, I don't think AMD as 'a thing' like it is now back then. I'd be curious to know the history of this system. How long was Apple actually working on it. Why did they make the decisions they did. Why did they choose the processors they did. If it took this long to come up with the design and 'engineering', they probably were reaching a time where their 'current' design was being trashed by the march of time. If it took, how many years? As the processors and video cards marched into obscurity... Maybe that's too dramatic, but it did take Apple a REALLY LONG TIME to flop this thing on the market. If I was an investor, I'd want to know how long it actually took Apple to go from idea to product. If it was 5 years, that's a really long time. Even if it was 3 years, that is a really long time...

Whatever.

They released the iMac Pro in 2017. They teased that they had 'something in the pipeline', one would guess in the pipeline for a while, when it was released. Who knows...

Why the stratospheric pricing is puzzling too, I suppose...

EDIT: They could have made it 'updateable/upgradeable'.

Simpsons laughing.gif

But who am I kidding. Apple apparently can't make an updateable/upgradable product. (Referring to processor swaps)
 
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HEY GUYS !! You need to watch this video. Not only does a $17,000 2020 Mac Pro function the same as a 2019 iMac used by multiple video, graphics and audio pro's. But it gets it's but kicked toward the end of the video on a AMD 3.7 32 core thread ripper machine that only cost 12k not 17k. And the $5000 monitor somewhat sucks according to 5 pro's that use pro software on a daily basis. WATCH!!



 
I still don’t understand where people think their Mac Pro is going to go?
If you’re processing film on a mountain perhaps remove the optional wheels.
If it’s on a desk don’t fit the optional wheels.
If it’s on an office floor it’s unlikely to go for a jog taking your monitor with it.
Aside the stupid price for a totally optional extra what exactly is the issue?
If you have a bad back, use the wheels. The thing weighs about 20Kg, put some wheels on it and make then useful. The fact that Apple have taken the time to produce the wheels suggests that even they think the chances of them being moved around are not insignificant.
Guess what, nobody makes wheels for my toaster. With good reason - it's light.
I have wheels on my office desk. It hardly ever gets moved but the manufacturers realised as I said earlier that, even they think the chances of them being moved around are not insignificant.
 
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keeping the product line simple would put Apple out of business.

You're confusing "simple" (and carefully planned) with "small".

I think it’s more that Apple wouldn’t have grown to the size it is today without offering more products at different price points in order to cater to a wider demographic of users.
.....
Steve Jobs did what was best for the Apple of his era, just as Tim Cook is doing what is best for the Apple of today.

(NB: some rhetorical liberties with the timeline below, but...)

The first thing Jobs did was get Apple to drop all extraneous products like Newton and Quicktake, focus on Apple's core strengths in personal computers work to a tiny 2x2 'product grid'. That saved the company, and Apple is now the #4-or-so biggest maker of personal computers.

The second thing that Jobs did was to completely6 ignore his own advice and go off on a complete tangent with a portable music player. That succeeded beyond anybody's wildest dreams and ultimately led to Apple becoming one of the biggest and most famous brands in the world.

The third thing that Jobs did was sign off on the hockey-puck mouse and G4 cube...

Jobs was famous for making the original Mac sealed and non-expandable - but he also presided over the G4/G5/Original Mac Pro designs, which were among the easiest PCs ever to open up and work inside.

Take home lesson: Steve Jobs was not a 2x2 grid on a Powerpoint slide in a MBA course.

As for "more products at different price points" - well, that's what Jobs did with the iMac, the original Mini and, in a way, the iPod - while there have always been super-expensive "real pros only" options.

In the last few years Apple have jacked up the entry prices of pretty much all the Macs (and this is in the tech market where deflation is the expected norm) while being very slow at updating RAM and SSD specs/upgrade prices to match falling costs. There's no longer a sub-$1000 MacBook, or a sub-$500 Mac Mini or a sub-$3000 Mac Pro... and even the "entry level" $800 Mini and $6000 Pro have ridiculously poor specs for the price without adding expensive upgrades.

As for the iPhone - yes, there are a range of models and prices, but the actual range is a dumpster fire because several of the last 4-5 upgrade cycles have consisted of Apple adding new top-end models only and just keeping on the last 2 years models as the mid/low end options. To be fair, they've rolled back a bit from that with the iPhone 11 non-pro (but the XR and 8 are still on the list...).

As for the whole "wheels" debate raised by others:

Sure, if you don't need wheels don't get them, but the point is that, if you did pay such a premium price, the least you could expect would be a bit of attention to detail like 'hey we've made these super-smooth wheels, maybe we should put a lock on one of them?' or, even, 'hang on - if we put the power and USB-C on the front or had opening side panels like the old Mac Pros that everybody loved and you could open without unplugging all the cables from the back... then users could just leave the thing under their desk without continually needing to pull it out an wouldn't need wheels...'.

If Apple gets it into their head that they can get away with luxury pricing with 100% bling and 0% attention to detail then that will inevitably trickle down the whole product range.
 
In the last few years Apple have jacked up the entry prices of pretty much all the Macs (and this is in the tech market where deflation is the expected norm) while being very slow at updating RAM and SSD specs/upgrade prices to match falling costs. There's no longer a sub-$1000 MacBook, or a sub-$500 Mac Mini or a sub-$3000 Mac Pro... and even the "entry level" $800 Mini and $6000 Pro have ridiculously poor specs for the price without adding expensive upgrades.
The counterpoint to your point would be that the iMac now takes the place of the original Mac Pro, in that it has gotten good enough for the majority of tasks people would want a desktop PC for. The iMac Pro and Mac Pro take on tasks too powerful for a souped-up iMac, of which there aren't that many, which is why they have the price tags to match.

Likewise, consider that in the past, many people got a PC primarily to access the web. Today, that role is largely subsumed by the iPhone and the iPad. I suspect Macs have gotten more expensive because Apple is positioning them to take on pro workflows, which is an increasingly niche market. At the same time, Apple seems to be marketing the iPad as the general-purpose computer for the masses. A device that gives you much of the benefits of a PC (web browsing, content consumption, email) without the hassle of having to manage a PC.

I recognise that this also means there is a huge hole for users whom a Mac mini isn't powerful enough, and an iMac is too expensive or inflexible (essentially a mid-tier desktop Mac), and Apple doesn't seem interested in serving that market, so yeah, there's that.

As for the iPhone - yes, there are a range of models and prices, but the actual range is a dumpster fire because several of the last 4-5 upgrade cycles have consisted of Apple adding new top-end models only and just keeping on the last 2 years models as the mid/low end options. To be fair, they've rolled back a bit from that with the iPhone 11 non-pro (but the XR and 8 are still on the list...).
Because that's what the market wants. People want cheap iPhones, but they also want to be seen with an iPhone that was once the best. And while the XR doesn't seem to make much financial sense (considering you get the 11 for a little more), it's still a very capable phone in its own right.

It doesn't hurt that iPhones generally keep their resale value pretty well, and Apple supports them software-wise for a pretty long period of time.

Sure, if you don't need wheels don't get them, but the point is that, if you did pay such a premium price, the least you could expect would be a bit of attention to detail like 'hey we've made these super-smooth wheels, maybe we should put a lock on one of them?' or, even, 'hang on - if we put the power and USB-C on the front or had opening side panels like the old Mac Pros that everybody loved and you could open without unplugging all the cables from the back... then users could just leave the thing under their desk without continually needing to pull it out an wouldn't need wheels...'.
You are talking about the company who put the charging port on the underside of their mouse and the power button and ports on the back of their iMac. Apple evidently cares enough about how their products look that they would happily sacrifice a small measure of usability to avoid marring their appearance.

It's the same logic with that overpriced iPad Pro leather sleeve that they used to sell. Apple tends to leave little clues in their products as to how they expect you to use their devices. For example, the sleeve comes with a pencil holder, which implies that you are expected to leave the pencil stationary when not in use to avoid triggering the accelerometer and waste battery life. As opposed to an iPad case with a built-in pencil holder.

It's not impossible that Apple deliberately excluded a locking mechanism from their Mac Pro wheels because in their own little way, such a move may also speak volumes about how they see the Mac Pro being used with the wheels installed?
 
In the last few years Apple have jacked up the entry prices of pretty much all the Macs (and this is in the tech market where deflation is the expected norm) while being very slow at updating RAM and SSD specs/upgrade prices to match falling costs. There's no longer a sub-$1000 MacBook, or a sub-$500 Mac Mini or a sub-$3000 Mac Pro... and even the "entry level" $800 Mini and $6000 Pro have ridiculously poor specs for the price without adding expensive upgrades.

As for the iPhone - yes, there are a range of models and prices, but the actual range is a dumpster fire because several of the last 4-5 upgrade cycles have consisted of Apple adding new top-end models only and just keeping on the last 2 years models as the mid/low end options. To be fair, they've rolled back a bit from that with the iPhone 11 non-pro (but the XR and 8 are still on the list...).
Exactly for as much as they have and are making iPads and iPhones more affordable, the desktops and laptops are still out of range. At one point years ago, the laptops were somewhat in range, and I was considering one once my Lenovo died, but then they bumped the price up more out of range.
 
The counterpoint to your point would be that the iMac now takes the place of the original Mac Pro, in that it has gotten good enough for the majority of tasks people would want a desktop PC for.

I think that's always been true - the iMac (and the classic Mac before it) has always been the go-to machine for office, email, web etc. The towers have always been for someone who needs a bit extra. The problem with the iMac is that you're stuck with whatever display that Apple thinks is best, and any expansion spews out onto your desk with a supporting cast of extra cables and wall-warts.

How "pro" do you need to be to want, to say, use a pair of matching displays, upgrade your GPU, stick in a card with extra USB ports or, when the next MacOS comes along, pull the main HD, put it in a safe place, stick in a new one and do a clean install?

The iMac Pro and Mac Pro take on tasks too powerful for a souped-up iMac, of which there aren't that many, which is why they have the price tags to match.

Except that's the problem - desktop machines aren't just about power, they're about versatility and choice. In Apple's mind the only thing wrong with the iMac/iMac pro is the raw power, and the only "pros" are people wanting to edit 8k video or have 100 virtual instrument tracks permanently loaded into a complicated setup that involves simultaneous use of Logic, Pro Tools and a flux capacitor. (Seriously, those videos are great, and the guy makes a good case as to why he needs a Mac Pro - the question is, is he representative? He's also pointed out a ton of embarrassing minor gripes with the MP)

Likewise, consider that in the past, many people got a PC primarily to access the web. Today, that role is largely subsumed by the iPhone and the iPad. I suspect Macs have gotten more expensive because Apple is positioning them to take on pro workflows, which is an increasingly niche market.

I think that's a narrative being pushed by the tech industry, including Apple, and if the PC market has been stagnant it is partly because the IT industry has been focussing their development and promotion on mobile (even as far as knobbling their desktop products to follow the mobile trend - see Windows 8).

Yes, mobile has taken on a lot of the web/comms/social media role, but that web/comms/social media role has grown almost beyond recognition since the launch of the iPhone, so there's plenty to go around. Plus, of course, many more people are creating online content, editing prosumer-level video for YouTube and developing fart apps and casual games for iOS/Android. Mac is probably the best platforms for "web development" out there. Doing anything that needs either extensive typing/text editing or screen "real estate" on Mobile is like pulling teeth.

My experience is that people who need to do anything beyond chat still use laptops or desktops as their primary machines, and have tablets and/or mobiles as well for communications. Mainly, mobile has soaked up the second/kids system market, which was probably dominated by the $300 Dell special which has never been Apple's bag (for several years, Mac sales were growing while PC sales were falling, probably because Apple wasn't invested in the very-low-end market).

I think one real problem is that Apple and others got burnt big time over the last 10 years, when the single most dramatic improvement in PC performance has come from the switch to SSDs - a cheap and easy upgrade on most ~2010 era systems. I know my 2011 17" MBP would still do 80% of what I need today if the GPU hadn't died. The whole industry is falling back on built-in obsolescence rather than really innovating.
 
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The counterpoint to your point would be that the iMac now takes the place of the original Mac Pro, in that it has gotten good enough for the majority of tasks people would want a desktop PC for. The iMac Pro and Mac Pro take on tasks too powerful for a souped-up iMac, of which there aren't that many, which is why they have the price tags to match.

Except the iMac Pro is more of a gimme to the 'pro' market to tide them over until the 'real Pro' came out. Sure, the iMac Pro might be faster, but it was more out of desperation than sudden insight. Reading reports of it overheating, and a potential high failure rate isn't surprising. It was 'filler'. A 'quick decision' to stem the exsanguination of the small portion of the pro market that could stomach buying a closed box that was faster. It wasn't revolutionary, more evolutionary, and yet not quite that either. *shrug* And isn't the iMac Pro a 'souped up iMac'?

My one question is: will AppleCare cover a $50,000 Mac Pro that fell off a desk/credenza/cabinet? And if so, what if it took the monitor with it. YIKES! Expensive! Highly doubtful! Apple *SHOULD* come up with a 'Mac Pro Wedge', or the plate that I described. They need *something* to restrain those profit centers from rolling into harms way. OUCH! And what of the connector breakage when they shift too. OUCH!
 
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