Mac Security In Spotlight

[Eraserhead]

Growth needs to be taken in context of sales volumes or it's a meaningless statistic.

Source? My source says otherwise. Though looking through HP's financials (yes revision is that boring 😛) it looks like they make considerably more profit out of computers than Apple, though they are the only PC manufacturer for which that is true.

I've not forgotten it since I never actually mentioned it, however unless it took him an entire day to get his disk then it wouldn't have since Vista didn't fall until day three when third party applications were allowed to be exploited.

Since Flash is on 90% of computers its essentially first party.

 

[BongoBanger]

Source? My source says otherwise. Though looking through HP's financials (yes revision is that boring 😛) it looks like they make considerably more profit out of computers than Apple, though they are the only PC manufacturer for which that is true.

Remember the 9% is an industry average figure. Also, if I remember rightly the NPD figures are retail only and don't include on-line sales which discounts Dell and others completely from their figures. I could be wrong though.

Here's the sales commentary from IDC and the growth/sales tables:

http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp;jsessionid=DVBUOGTISLQ00CQJAFICFGAKBEAUMIWD?containerId=prUS21041708

 

[BongoBanger]

Since Flash is on 90% of computers its essentially first party.

Adobe Flash wasn't installed on the remaining Vista and Linux machines until Day three when the rules were relaxed to allow the hacking of third party software. Just because a product is common to a lot of machines doesn't make it proprietary software.

 

[Eraserhead]

Adobe Flash wasn't installed on the remaining Vista and Linux machines until Day three when the rules were relaxed to allow the hacking of third party software. Just because a product is common to a lot of machines doesn't make it proprietary software.

I know, but its essentially first party as virtually everyone has it installed 😉.

 

[Eraserhead]

Here's the sales commentary from IDC and the growth/sales tables:

I think you're probably right then.

 

[dsnort]

I've not forgotten it since I never actually mentioned it, however unless it took him an entire day to get his disk then it wouldn't have since Vista didn't fall until day three when third party applications were allowed to be exploited.

Actually the Vista hacker, ( the same Shane Macaully who was involved in hacking the MacBook last year), had an exploit ready for Vista that was rendered ineffective when he was confronted with SP1. Why he wouldn't have expected SP1 is an open question.

Starting from scratch he found a vulnerability, which caused him to run home to get a file he needed to exploit the bug. He ran out of time, however, to develop his exploit code. Had he been as well prepared as Chris Miller, Vista could have fallen on day two.

( Since he didn't win, I wonder if he was bound to disclose his exploit, or if he can now sell it to the highest bidder??)

 

[BongoBanger]

Actually the Vista hacker, ( the same Shane Macaully who was involved in hacking the MacBook last year), had an exploit ready for Vista that was rendered ineffective when he was confronted with SP1. Why he wouldn't have expected SP1 is an open question.

Poor planning one would have thought since it's been out as RTM for some time and he would have had access to it.

Starting from scratch he found a vulnerability, which caused him to run home to get a file he needed to exploit the bug. He ran out of time, however, to develop his exploit code. Had he been as well prepared as Chris Miller, Vista could have fallen on day two.

He wasn't though and thus he failed. Further specualtion on what he could or couldn't do is pointless.

Again I'd also point out that the vulnerability he eventually exploited was in Adobe Flash, not Vista, and that the hack couldn't take place until it was installed on day three.

( Since he didn't win, I wonder if he was bound to disclose his exploit, or if he can now sell it to the highest bidder??)

Actually he won $5,000 and the Fujitsu laptop and is subject to the same restrictions.

 

[dsnort]

Poor planning one would have thought since it's been out as RTM for some time and he would have had access to it.

I would agree with you there

He wasn't though and thus he failed. Further specualtion on what he could or couldn't do is pointless.

So, Vista's great security depends on poorly prepared hackers?

Again I'd also point out that the vulnerability he eventually exploited was in Adobe Flash, not Vista, and that the hack couldn't take place until it was installed on day three.

Actually he won $5,000 and the Fujitsu laptop and is subject to the same restrictions.

As the hack he used on day 3 did require Adobe Flash, it would have been illegal on day two. So it obviously wasn't the same vulnerability he was trying to exploit on day two.

 

[Frisco]

Apple is like Toyota. Too much growth in a short time frame causes problems.

 

[djgamble]

I'm sorry, but being quiet and polite wouldn't go far when trying to refute arguments that are pure BS.

Well mate, without swearing I have stuck to my guns and brought up many valid points that others on this forum would agree with. I've continuously said that we don't know how to reproduce the bug, and I will argue the impact and severity of it when the full details are out.

You on the other hand have 3 very simplistic points which I will summarise in the simplistic and repetitive fashion that you have presented them in:

1) There's a bug, therefore it's very serious.

Answer: Yes, bugs are bad and should be fixed, however all OS' have security flaws/bugs, and we don't know how serious this one is so cannot debate this until the details come out. We do however know that security had to be relaxed before any of the machines were hacked. It had to be relaxed in a way that a user had to do something wrong, this is quite significant.

2) Apple's was found first, so therefore their OS is the least secure.

Answer: Not true, it wasn't a lab test, it was a competition, no control measures were in place, and someone would be foolish to assume that the machine hacked first was the least secure as the competition gave no scope on the holistic features of security implemented by any of the OS' manufacturers.

3) The fact that the MacBook Air is worth more means nothing because people could get the Linux box + 10 000 for winning, and spend that money on a MacBook Air.

Answer: They could alternatively win the MacBook Air and pocket 10 grand. The most valuable prize was a MacBook Air and 10 grand cash.

*sigh*....

Yeah you've had a big day arguing with people, go have a beer and get laid (I did in the time between making my last post and writing this response, while you were still arguing with people on an internet forum about things clearly out of your depth).

And the sad thing is that even though I spent quite a bit of time shooting down your ludicrous claims, you learned nothing...

True, I learned absolutely nothing, and wasted a good deal of my time responding to your deconstruction and repetitive whinging about my well thought out and legitimate argument points.

You and the MacBook Air have 1 big thing in common 😉 you both got 0wN3d.

 

[g00k]

why are the most of apple buyers so damn narrow-minded?
do u guys even research ur product before buying?
its not new that os in generall is unsecure... the technology is way behind microsoft...

but with a market share of only ca 10% its so ****ing obvious that the viruses etc are all for windows.

i really would like to know how apple succeeded in making the most part of mankind so damn stupid.

well done apple

ps: i own apple products like iphone... still dont shut ur brain off just because steve jobs says something...

and btw apple isnt that innovative as u all think they are...
i am 90% certain... if nokia would have released a phone in place of the iphone (same design, same functions, same screen) ... no one would have called it revolutionary.

do u people even get how apple is playing with u?
iphone with a over expersinve contract and without 3g...

i am not against buying apple products... especially the notebook series because they are atm the most "sercure" i know i am contradictory...
i am refering to the low quantity of viruses existing for macbooks.

but well lets wait and see when apple reachs a market share of 20% have fun and go down apple. i appreciate the nice designs u guys created but the most of ur products are so average that no one would miss a company which just appeal the hedonism of our zeitgeist so well.

btw i never owned a ipod... for a simple reason... my friend payed 300 euro for an ipod video and only one year warranty (that must be a joke!!) and warranty extention cost him about another 100 euro. the ipod didnt last even a year without repairing... i had in that time an iriver mp3 player 4 years with no problems... still all buy ipods. ARE U NUTS?

hopefully apple realise that form only wont be enough to surivive for long and they are making better products for the money they get.

 

[dsnort]

why are the most of apple buyers so damn narrow-minded?

Must be all the attention we use on other things like punctuation, spelling , grammar, forming complete and coherent sentences so we don't look foolish, not spewing hyperbole and rhetoric verbatim........

 

[g00k]

well sorry for my poor written english.

still thats the reaction i expected.
ignoring the critism, which may be a bit exaggerated.
u guys really live on another planet i guess. every word i say against steve jobs u interpret it as heresy.
is it so hard to lend me an ear for just for a few seconds?

 

[pubius]

Language is, and always has been, a fluid thing. It needs to be. Think of all the terms computers and the Internet have produced, all of them created because there were no existing terms that properly identified them. Do you ever use terms like "phish", "emoticon", "website", "Google" (as a verb), "mouse", "spam", "download", "menu" or "hack?" Does that make you an utter moron for using those terms that either didn't exist a 20+ years ago or had vastly different meanings back then?

"Pwn" has a specific meaning not fully covered by any existing term. It will most likely end up a part of the language, even if it's relegated to nonstandard status.

Uh. Wrong! This term was (sadly) born from a mis-type of the word 'own'. Like "I just totally owned you on the court". See that 'o' and 'p' right next to each other on your keyboard. See how easily this ridiculousness got started. There is a word, own, already used, that means the exact same thing. No new term with new meaning. This whole nerd 'p' substitute thing got pushed all over the place through MMORPGs. Brutal.

 

[BongoBanger]

So, Vista's great security depends on poorly prepared hackers?

Well, no. It depends on a dedicated team of people who constantly look for weaknesses in the system. I'm not saying Vista is more secure than Leopard because that would be a laughable thing to do. What I am saying is that when it comes down to 'stupid user' mode that any machine has vulnerabilities regardless of what OS it's running.

What's important is that none of the OSs fell when hackers tried to access them remotely on the first day. That's good news for everyone.

As the hack he used on day 3 did require Adobe Flash, it would have been illegal on day two. So it obviously wasn't the same vulnerability he was trying to exploit on day two.

I agree. The point remains he failed to hack the OS.

The bottom line appears to be that if you're careful then you're safe no matter what OS you use but if you're careless you're at risk.

 

[BongoBanger]

Well mate, without swearing I have stuck to my guns and brought up many valid points that others on this forum would agree with.

I'm sorry, you haven't. You have consistently failed to give a convincing reply to Evangelion's arguments. I don't think many people who've actually read the articles would agree with you at all.

 

[em500]

3) The fact that the MacBook Air is worth more means nothing because people could get the Linux box + 10 000 for winning, and spend that money on a MacBook Air.

Answer: They could alternatively win the MacBook Air and pocket 10 grand. The most valuable prize was a MacBook Air and 10 grand cash.

What makes the MacBook Air more valuable than the Sony TZ37? The fact that you like it better?

 

[Eraserhead]

Poor planning one would have thought since it's been out as RTM for some time and he would have had access to it.

Yes, but it isn't in Windows Update yet, its ambiguous. Of course he probably should have asked before arriving at the conference, but maybe he didn't care that much.

What makes the MacBook Air more valuable than the Sony TZ37? The fact that you like it better?

Probably because as security researchers they'll already have expensive laptops, but probably not one as cool as the MacBook Air.

 

[BongoBanger]

Yes, but it isn't in Windows Update yet, its ambiguous. Of course he probably should have asked before arriving at the conference, but maybe he didn't care that much.

Perhaps. As a security advisor you would have kind of expected him to be aware of what was going on though.

Probably because as security researchers they'll already have expensive laptops, but probably not one as cool as the MacBook Air.

The actual reason Miller went for the Air is this:

"We could have chosen any of those three but had to make a judgement call on which would be the easiest and decided it would be Leopard"

The 'coolness' of the prize has nothing to do with it so I wish people would actually read the article and stop coming up with this nonsensical excuse.

 

[djgamble]

What makes the MacBook Air more valuable than the Sony TZ37? The fact that you like it better?

The fact that you pay more money; I think that part is pretty self explanatory.

 

[gnasher729]

Though looking through HP's financials (yes revision is that boring 😛) it looks like they make considerably more profit out of computers than Apple, though they are the only PC manufacturer for which that is true.

HP makes a lot of money from enterprise storage and servers, and from services, which could all be called "profit out of computers"; both areas where Apple is not very involved at all (I guess XServe makes a bit of money and is worth doing for Apple, but it isn't that big). IBM also makes a lot of profit out of computers, without selling any PCs at all. Do you have any source that compares how HP and Apple do in the personal computer business alone?

 

[Eraserhead]

The personal systems group of HP (which includes PC's) made $1.9 billion last year (see page 56 of their 2007 10k filing), it also includes commercial PC's and workstations, as well as handhelds and digital entertainment, but the latter two seem to be minor. Apple only made $3.4 billion in total, so probably about 40% of that is Mac, but I'm really not sure...

 

[BongoBanger]

I think HP's profit margin on personals is about 6% whereas Apple's is over 20%.

Whether or not you think that's a good thing is up to you.

 

[dsnort]

well sorry for my poor written english.

still thats the reaction i expected.
ignoring the critism, which may be a bit exaggerated.

You mean you consider these statements to be criticisms?

"why are the most of apple buyers so damn narrow-minded?"
"do u guys even research ur product before buying?"
"its not new that os in generall is unsecure... the technology is way behind microsoft..."
"but with a market share of only ca 10% its so ****ing obvious that the viruses etc are all for windows."
"i really would like to know how apple succeeded in making the most part of mankind so damn stupid."
"dont shut ur brain off just because steve jobs says something..."

And my personal favorite.

"ARE U NUTS?"

Sorry. but this does not qualify as criticism. This is an amalgam of insults, hyperbole, and opinions from the far extremes of Window's fanboism. In other words, it's nothing more than flamebait, and doesn't warrant a response in a rational discussion.

u guys really live on another planet i guess. every word i say against steve jobs u interpret it as heresy.
is it so hard to lend me an ear for just for a few seconds?

Yeah, we live on another planet. We call it "Earth". Maybe when you locate your head you can visit us here.

 

[3monkies]

Lol

I have to admit reading some of these responses really got me fired up but the more I read the more ridicules I found them… Let be honest windows people:

1. The Mac was exploited first, because that is the hardware everybody wanted.

2. This exploit wouldn't have occurred without the human element

3. And even if either of the above weren't true, you have made no argument to make me switch to any of the other OS's. I see the windows community is full of bitter, cocky, and immature users.