Queen6
macrumors G5
Case of doing something versus doing nothing in the face if strengthening competition methinks. Then again Apple also needs reason to charge $2K for a 13" and $3K for a 15" MBP 🙂
Q-6
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Macbook pro 15 without that touch-bar.
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Case of doing something versus doing nothing in the face if strengthening competition methinks. Then again Apple also needs reason to charge $2K for a 13" and $3K for a 15" MBP 🙂
Q-6
Hieveryone
macrumors 603
I think I'd buy a 13" without touch bar if they it wasn't only 2.0 GHz. Even my late 2013 is 2.6 GHz.
Queen6
macrumors G5
That was my initial thought, however once you add the i7 CPU into the equation, the 13" non "Noob Bar" was just $63 less than the 256 Surface Book with i7 & dGPU 😱 which I find ridiculous. I can live with some of the issues the 2016 MBP presents, however not all of them, at the same time.
Apple asking close to $2K for a basic clamshell notebook is just a joke and serves nothing more than another vehicle to bolster it's margins. For me the price does not intimidate as my systems pay for themselves in short time, equally the value is seriously lacking for the Mac in 2017. Net result Apple has lost a customer in the 13" class and very likely the 15" class, as for the desktop an exercise in humour on Apple's behalf...
Q-6
c0ppo
macrumors 68000
Nope, I really don't agree on that one. It's easy to tell I really dislike TB. But do I consider moving to Dell or anyone other? Nope. And it's not TB that keeps me in Apple camp, it's not even MBP. It's the MacOS.
If Dell XPS could run MacOS, I would switch in a heart beat. I wouldn't even consider MBP anymore.
Failure of a particular function means that most of the people fail to realise or see the benefit of that function. So far, if I ask anyone who likes TB why is it better then classical function keys + keyboard shortcuts, no one, and I do mean NO ONE gave me any meaningful response.
You can't do anything faster on TB then with keyboard shortcuts. And pros do use keyboard shortcuts. A lot.
Again, I don't agree 😀
Siri can be turned off. I know this because I never use Siri, so it's off. When Apple introduced Siri, they didn't take away anything, just added one more option to use. Look at it this way, if Apple removed home button and touch id, because now Siri can unlock your phone, and you can tell Siri what you want to open/close.
Of course they didn't do that.
But as I said, I'm still hoping for a 15" MBP without that gimmicky oled display below the main display 🙂
Eerriikkoo
macrumors member
maflynn
macrumors Broadwell
But why?
Apple views the function keys as archaic and not needed in the 21st century - at least for mainstream consumers.
Eerriikkoo
macrumors member
T
They were right about that. But they should have considered a big portion of their pro userbase that are dependent on archaic functions because they work in their workflow. Maybe slap the touchbar on the 12 inch macbook instead of the F keys but on the pro just add the touchbar to the top of the full keyboard. Plenty of room. Everybody happy.
maflynn
macrumors Broadwell
Queen6
macrumors G5
To me it's another indicaton of Apple's shift of focus for the Mac. The dynamically changing touch bar may be a cool addition, equally it breaks workflow requiring a second point of focus for the user. In comparison to a good 2 in 1 that one can interact directly with the display, I see the touch bar as little more than eye candy, and a weak attempt on Apple's behalf to differentiate it's product...
Q-6
That reason would be additional storage, faster processors, or the like, considering they start at $1800 and $2400.
You understand that "Noob Bar" is a name-calling insult to those who like the touch bar, right? And many who do like it aren't by any means noobs.
The touch bar is Apple's answer to touch screens. No need to go beyond that to explain it.
Can't tell what you might have in mind, but Apple is a for-profit organization, and always has been. The pricing makes perfect sense in relation to the features, compared to earlier models. As has been pointed out here many times. And consumers apparently agree, as they're selling well, as has also been pointed out here.
Then you simply haven't been reading the discussions here. I know from even this discussion that some pros consider themselves more pro than others, but nonetheless there are pros with credentials as good as yours who disagree with you about the convenience and productivity of the touch bar.
I don't think most people would be happy having to pay for a redundant feature like that. And it wouldn't be very elegant either.
c0ppo
macrumors 68000
That's all nice and dandy. But the problem is I have been reading discussions, and still haven't seen any compelling reason. Maybe you can write something yourself, or point me in the right direction?
I don't keep an index of the discussions here, but a quick trip to Google brought up several points that have been discussed here, including those made at these two links:
http://www.imore.com/how-the-touch-bar-improved-my-mac-productivity
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/thomas-grove-carter/one-professionals-look-at_b_12894856.html
Hieveryone
macrumors 603
Yeah I agree with a lot of this. I don't know many keyboard shortcuts, but I do enjoy the physical keys over the touch bar.
IMO, the touch bar is distracting.
I wish they made a 13" with more GHz. Like 2.9 with the option to bump it up over 3.0 GHz.
I have a late 2013 which is 2.6 GHz. The new MBP without touch bar starting a 2.0 GHz is a turn off.
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Yeah I agree. Once my late 2013 2.6/8/256 gets old and I need to upgrade I'm probably going back to PC. Microsoft has some compelling choices for sure.
The prices are pretty high for Macs, but I don't really know what I'm paying for anymore especially if I have to buy ugly and inconvenient dongles on top of everything else.
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This makes a lot of sense to me. They should've first put touch bar on the MacBook. I'm not sure if touch bar is really a pro feature. It seems like MacBook users would be more happy with it, because they can easily select emojis when posting on Twitter in Starbucks. Something like that haha.
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c0ppo
macrumors 68000
iMore writes about:
1) Tab Skimming
Nice to look at, I will give you that. But still, I will do it better, faster and without looking by using shortcuts. So does it improve functionality? Nope.
2) Touch Bar-Assisted memory
Again, bashing keyboard shortcuts. And he forgot to mention that you can edit keyboard shortcuts so that they are same in almost every application you use. And it's quite easy to do.
3) Spelling suggestions
Well, with this one I do agree, but autocorrect and spell checking as a decent alternative.
4) Interface de-cluttering
Lol. In most apps, you can't even remove some of the toolbars. I know, coz I would love to remove almost all of them and simply use keyboard shortcuts.
5) Touch ID
Well, this one is great. But it has nothing to do with TB, Apple can put this in even without touch bar.
My conclusion:
Everything a touchbar brings, we already have. It's called keyboard shortcuts, and it's way faster then TB. You don't have to look away from the screen, keyboard shortcuts stay the same for every similar app unless you change them, and Pro users tend to learn them and use them.
TB is useful if someone is a noob for a particular app. But then again, he won't learn keyboard shortcuts, so he will stay less productive.
I asked for something new that TB brings to the table. Reading iMore i get the point. TB is replacement for keyboard shortcuts. And it's slower and less productive then keyboard shortcuts. Uses way more battery life, kinda hard to see in the sun, and the resolution of the TB is not great at all.
Again, I simply still can't see any compelling reasons to use TB over keyboard shortcuts. And besides using TB as less productive version of keyboard shortcuts, there is absolutely nothing that TB brings to the table.
maflynn
macrumors Broadwell
Agreed, it seems like a solution in search of a problem.
I will say it looks cool, and provides some nice features but if I have to take my eyes off the screen to interact with the TB then its not as efficient then what I can already without the Touch Bar.
I think you're in the minority with that sentiment. I thought MacBook Pros were pricey to begin with, but now the price point is ludicrous imo. They are a for profit company and they can easily justify the cost structure, I'll not debate that, but what I am complaining about is using my hard earned money on such a exorbitantly priced laptop.
SteveJUAE
macrumors 601
Agreed, but to counter completion and distract from core objectives "Make it simple then look again and make it simpler" is clutching a straws IMO
I see little point in quoting sales or even other reviews to substantiate these changes, in a one horse race if you want MacOS you have no choice, just suck it up.
I simply refuse to believe anyone is opting to pay Apple prices for a Mac just to get a TB or enlarged TP where they do for touch/pen.
I also question the possible increase risk of reliability on these newer implementations as we have seen there has been many debates since the release of the rMB KB and again with the 2016 tbMBP. We have a good 2 years or more to go before we find out the TB and shallow throw KB endurance.
Lets not forget yet another layer of battery management added to consider 🙄
As for newbies I would imagine the new TB is equally likely to confuse those grannies etc upgrading from eg an Ipad with buttons on/off and changing with apps etc, it's most likely to be disabled
maflynn
macrumors Broadwell
That's the issue, if you want the OS X experience then for intents and purposes Macs your only option.
Queen6
macrumors G5
Well I bought Mac`s for their superior stability and premium product lines, however aspects of this have simply deteriorated, I now have more issue with my Mac`s than my Windows 10 systems. Apple remains to produce premium products, equally in comparison to the completion versus my professional needs they are no longer 1st inline.
The dongle situation will resolve in time, equally in the meantime dongles will be a painful experience for some. Personally I am looking at hardware that works now, not in several years time. 21 months with a rMB has shown me that dongles can be and are problematic at times.
Q-6
Hey, been using the touchbar on the tbMbp 15" for 1 month now and 90% of the time I find it distracting and unnecessary. I would classify myself as a light technology enthusiast but so far the TB has not done marvels for me.
However, I can definitely see the potential once they start using the TB as a way of integrating macros (functions beyond shortcuts) to applications. Let's say Excel > select whole data area > TB options become "Create Pivot table" and/or other things.
Macros such as nested functions that require navigation in sub-menus or unlock hidden functions of an app.
These macros could qualify as "Pro", even better if they become customizable from Apple ID to Apple ID (user to user).
As for a MBP 15" 2017+ without TB, I don't think this will happen as Apple is perhaps too stubborn to listen to its customer base (it takes loss of market share to rethink the product line strategy: see iPhone 6 generation to compete with Samsung Galaxy).
However, I can definitely see the potential once they start using the TB as a way of integrating macros (functions beyond shortcuts) to applications. Let's say Excel > select whole data area > TB options become "Create Pivot table" and/or other things.
Macros such as nested functions that require navigation in sub-menus or unlock hidden functions of an app.
These macros could qualify as "Pro", even better if they become customizable from Apple ID to Apple ID (user to user).
As for a MBP 15" 2017+ without TB, I don't think this will happen as Apple is perhaps too stubborn to listen to its customer base (it takes loss of market share to rethink the product line strategy: see iPhone 6 generation to compete with Samsung Galaxy).
I have a 15'' TB MBP. I wouldn't pay $50 to have a laptop without the touch bar. I wouldn't pay $50 more to get one with it.
But since it was included with the laptop with the specs and ports I wanted, I'm not unhappy with the touch bar. It's not like the F-keys are used as frequently as actual typing keys for anyone, even programmers. The workflow time cost of looking at those keys is probably negligible. And swiping volume and brightness instead of click, click, clicking is pretty nice.
I think the real argument people want to make is "I want a less expensive 15'' MBP and I think removing the touch bar could make that happen." Lol... not going to happen guys.
But since it was included with the laptop with the specs and ports I wanted, I'm not unhappy with the touch bar. It's not like the F-keys are used as frequently as actual typing keys for anyone, even programmers. The workflow time cost of looking at those keys is probably negligible. And swiping volume and brightness instead of click, click, clicking is pretty nice.
I think the real argument people want to make is "I want a less expensive 15'' MBP and I think removing the touch bar could make that happen." Lol... not going to happen guys.
turbineseaplane
macrumors Penryn
Totally agree about your conclusion.
We also shouldn't forget that iMore is essentially "iLoveAppleEverything" usually.
It's really not an unbiased operation. I don't blame them. They are trying to make money by sucking the Apple knob...just sort of a useless source of information beyond pom pom waving it usually seems to me.
I do agree with you and believe the price of both the 13" and 15" tb MBP will eventually decrease by $150 to $200 over the next couple of years. This argument about "wished they had made a version without touchbar" will then be irrelevant
as price reduction and touchbar adoption will be greater.
Personally, I am positive / confident about the possibilities it will offer besides obvious volume /contrast functions for instance.
Guys give it some time for developers to make use of it. I find touch screens on laptops much more of a gimmick.
A gimmick is only a gimmick if you have no use for it. I have no use for touch screens on my laptops, even with Windows 10. Therefore, I find them a gimmick. Others may like or need that functionality and that is fine.
A gimmick is only a gimmick if you have no use for it. I have no use for touch screens on my laptops, even with Windows 10. Therefore, I find them a gimmick. Others may like or need that functionality and that is fine.