Macbook pro 15 without that touch-bar.

[Sanpete]

My conclusion:

Everything a touchbar brings, we already have. It's called keyboard shortcuts, and it's way faster then TB. You don't have to look away from the screen, keyboard shortcuts stay the same for every similar app unless you change them, and Pro users tend to learn them and use them.


TB is useful if someone is a noob for a particular app. But then again, he won't learn keyboard shortcuts, so he will stay less productive.


I asked for something new that TB brings to the table. Reading iMore i get the point. TB is replacement for keyboard shortcuts. And it's slower and less productive then keyboard shortcuts. Uses way more battery life, kinda hard to see in the sun, and the resolution of the TB is not great at all.


Again, I simply still can't see any compelling reasons to use TB over keyboard shortcuts. And besides using TB as less productive version of keyboard shortcuts, there is absolutely nothing that TB brings to the table.

First, you entirely missed the main point, which is that you aren't everyone. You aren't even the model pro. Other pros work differently than you. Others have minds that are more suited to a different interface and mode of operation. Others find that the TB increases their productivity because of those differences. Again, they aren't noobs. The problem here isn't in the TB, it's in people who imagine themselves to be the standard of professional productivity and simply refuse to accept the plain testimony of those who differ.

Second, your conclusion doesn't even match what you yourself said. You acknowledged that spelling alternatives were better in the TB.

Third, some of your responses are evasive, vague, even mysterious, and apparently false. For example, how do you skim through tabs with a KB shortcut faster than scrolling through? You may have fast fingers, but they aren't faster, or better, than swiping. You evasively complain that (at present) toolbars in many apps can't be removed and ignore the fact that in some apps the TB *can* take the place of on-screen toolbars, which is undeniably a useful thing.

Fourth, you didn't bother addressing all six points in the article you responded to. What of the greater granularity, how do you achieve that with a KB shortcut? You don't.

You think the TB brings absolutely nothing to the table because you simply refuse to see what's right in front of you.

I think you're in the minority with that sentiment. I thought MacBook Pros were pricey to begin with, but now the price point is ludicrous imo. They are a for profit company and they can easily justify the cost structure, I'll not debate that, but what I am complaining about is using my hard earned money on such a exorbitantly priced laptop.

Ha, well I'm probably in the minority who have actually done the math. It seems more expensive in large part because there's no longer a base model 15" without a dGPU. The 2015 15" with dGPU, 16 GB RAM, and 512 SSD was $2500 when it came out. The equivalent configuration for the 2016 is $100 more.

For that $100, there's the entirely new TB and Touch ID, along with upgrades for the screen, speakers, dGPU, external monitor support, and numerous other improvements. That seems to me to more than justify the current price structure relative to how it was before.

 

[Ethosik]

First, you entirely missed the main point, which is that you aren't everyone. You aren't even the model pro. Other pros work differently than you. Others have minds that are more suited to a different interface and mode of operation. Others find the the TB increases their productivity because of those differences. Again, they aren't noobs. The problem here isn't in the TB, it's in people who imagine themselves to be the standard of professional productivity and simply refuse to accept the plain testimony of those who differ.

Second, your conclusion doesn't even match what you yourself said. You acknowledged that spelling alternatives were better in the TB.

Third, some of your responses are evasive, vague, even mysterious, and apparently false. For example, how do you skim through tabs with a KB shortcut faster than scrolling through? You may have fast fingers, but they aren't faster, or better, than swiping. You evasively complain that (at present) toolbars in many apps can't be removed and ignore the fact that in some apps the TB *can* take the place of on-screen toolbars, which is undeniably a useful thing.

Fourth, you didn't bother addressing all six points in the article you responded to. What of the greater granularity, how do you achieve that with a KB shortcut? You don't.

You think the TB brings absolutely nothing to the table because you simply refuse to see what's right in front of you.



Ha, well I'm probably in the minority who have actually done the math. It seems more expensive in large part because there's no longer a base model 15" without a dGPU. The 2015 15" with dGPU, 16 GB RAM, and 512 SSD was $2500 when it came out. The equivalent configuration for the 2016 is $100 more.

For that $100, there's the entirely new TB and Touch ID, along with upgrades for the screen, speakers, dGPU, external monitor support, and numerous other improvements. That seems to me to more than justify the current price structure relative to how it was before.

I absolutely agree. People here seem to think "OMG this is overpriced just due to the touch bar".

What about the screen?
SSD speeds?
Speakers?
New GPUs? - "BUT BUT BUT these are not GTX 1050s" what some people will say.
4GB GPU?

 

[Exile714]

I absolutely agree. People here seem to think "OMG this is overpriced just due to the touch bar".

What about the screen?
SSD speeds?
Speakers?
New GPUs? - "BUT BUT BUT these are not GTX 1050s" what some people will say.
4GB GPU?

And USB-C. 4 ports that can do just about anything. Once you buy a couple adapters/cables and maybe a new external drive you realize just how nice those C ports are.

 

[Ethosik]

And USB-C. 4 ports that can do just about anything. Once you buy a couple adapters/cables and maybe a new external drive you realize just how nice those C ports are.

Yep. I agree. I would rather have universal ports instead of single use ports. On my 2013 rMBP, what if I wanted to connect three USB devices? I cannot do that! I do not know why they only put two USB ports on that laptop.

 

[c0ppo]

First, you entirely missed the main point, which is that you aren't everyone. You aren't even the model pro. Other pros work differently than you. Others have minds that are more suited to a different interface and mode of operation. Others find that the TB increases their productivity because of those differences. Again, they aren't noobs. The problem here isn't in the TB, it's in people who imagine themselves to be the standard of professional productivity and simply refuse to accept the plain testimony of those who differ.

I have missed the main point? All I asked is what TB can do that keyboard shortcuts can't do, and can't do faster and better? Only response I've gotten is that basically TB is a replacement for keyboard shortcuts.

Everyone works differently, I never claimed otherwise. From where you base your conclusion from is beyond me

Minds suited for different interface? And I am being evasive, vague and even mysterious? LOL?

I just ask that someone here that is making money out of their MBP explain to me what benefit TB brings to the table that we already have. And do you know how many of the answers I've got? Just yours. And yours response just said what I claim all long - TB is there as a keyboard shortcuts replacement. Nothing more, nothing less.

For example, how do you skim through tabs with a KB shortcut faster than scrolling through? You may have fast fingers, but they aren't faster, or better, than swiping. You evasively complain that (at present) toolbars in many apps can't be removed and ignore the fact that in some apps the TB *can* take the place of on-screen toolbars, which is undeniably a useful thing.

You are joking, right? I have my keyboard shortcuts set as alt + 1 = tab on the left, alt + 2 = tab on the right. I can swap tabs without looking at keyboard, something that TB requires you to do. By the time you look at your keyboard, or the touchbar, I have already swapped my tab. Multiple times. So your point is?

And yes, alt + number isn't default shortcut. You can use that as well, but I have set mine like this since I used old Opera Presto for a long time, and like it that way.

Fourth, you didn't bother addressing all six points in the article you responded to. What of the greater granularity, how do you achieve that with a KB shortcut? You don't.

Granularity? Excuse me, english is not my native language, and I have never lived in english speaking area. So the definition for that word that I've googled goes like this:

"The level of detail considered in a model or decision making process. The greater the granularity, the deeper the level of detail. Granularity is usually used to characterize the scale or level of detail in a set of data.

Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/granularity.html"

If that is granularity, I simply don't understand their point, so help me out here

You think the TB brings absolutely nothing to the table because you simply refuse to see what's right in front of you.

To be fair, this statement of yours isn't fair at all. Because we disagree, I can't see what's in front of me? Do you treat everyone like this?

I said it multiple times before, so I will say it again. I have an opinion about TB. And that opinion is that TB is a complete gimmick, maybe suitable for the noobs (in the short run!), but brings absolutely nothing new to the table.

I said I could be mistaken, and would like to be proven otherwise. All your links did is confirm what I have been claiming all along - TB is a replacement for keyboard shortcuts. Lousy replacement. It's slower then keyboard shortcuts, it uses battery where keyboard shortcuts require none at all, and it's resolution is lousy, and on direct sunlight, you will have a hard time even seeing TB.

Prove me wrong. I would like that, since I will always welcome new tools that will make my own life easier. Everyone would.

 

[Sanpete]

I have missed the main point? All I asked is what TB can do that keyboard shortcuts can't do, and can't do faster and better? Only response I've gotten is that basically TB is a replacement for keyboard shortcuts.

Again, that's flatly and obviously false. That's plainly not the only response I gave. Nor is your question the only point you raised. I've responded to your treating everyone who disagrees with you as a "noob" as well as your claim that the TB has no productivity advantages over KB shortcuts.

You are joking, right? I have my keyboard shortcuts set as alt + 1 = tab on the left, alt + 2 = tab on the right. I can swap tabs without looking at keyboard, something that TB requires you to do. By the time you look at your keyboard, or the touchbar, I have already swapped my tab. Multiple times. So your point is?

You completely missed the point again. The article very clearly explains that the tabs show on the screen, not the TB.

As the article also clearly explains, by using the slider on the TB you can sometimes get finer gradations than by using the old function keys.

To be fair, this statement of yours isn't fair at all. Because we disagree, I can't see what's in front of me? Do you treat everyone like this?

No, to be fair, that's not what I said at all. You showed you simply ignore points that don't fit your view, and have done so once again in your most recent response. That's not a matter of me disagreeing with you. It's a matter of seeing what you acknowledge, what you skip over, and what you totally misunderstand despite clear explanation.

For that reason, I can see this will go nowhere. Those who are willing to see will see, those who aren't, won't.

 

[stridemat]

MOD NOTE

Less of the bickering please.

 

[OneMike]

Think Apple will release an updated mbpr without that touch-bar? I don´t want a touch-bar on my laptop, but I´d like the machine to have the newest hardware though..

Doubt it. In two years I'd be surprised if touchbar versions weren't the only options offered.

 

[Count Blah]

But why?

Apple views the function keys as archaic and not needed in the 21st century - at least for mainstream consumers.

I thought these were "pro" machines?

Doubt it. In two years I'd be surprised if touchbar versions weren't the only options offered.

Yep, just wait until Apple ups the price of the iMac by $400, to put this gimmick in the iMac's keyboard. Then Apple will gladly add a $400-$500 keyboard to their inventory, to bring the touch bar to the rest of the masses.

 

[MrGuder]

Mark my words, the next time Apple has a conference you will hear them say what a success the touch bar has been and that it's reaching levels higher than they anticipated therefore since the public has fallen in love with the touch bar we are rolling it out to out entire MacBook line as well as iMacs.

They always make it appear it's what the public has asked so we always do what the customer wants even if it's not a must have option and users can do without it.

 

[ZapNZs]

Will they? No way! They don't even allow you to customize the 13-inch with the same features that the TB models have!!! It seems the reason Apple offers this is because they are killing the Air, and the MacBook cannot meet the needs of all Air users, who may not want to spend TB money on their Air replacement, and may not want the iPad Pro.

I agree that offering a 15 without the touch bar would more or less be an admission that not everyone: absolutely loves it, thinks it is far superior to a touch screen or function keys, and is demanding to have it on their flagship product. I'd also prefer the 15 without.

I think I'd buy a 13" without touch bar if they it wasn't only 2.0 GHz. Even my late 2013 is 2.6 GHz.

The 2.0 is actually a reasonably capable processor. The lower base clock speed is somewhat misleading. It seems to be roughly comparable to the 2015's 2.9 GHz i5 and a bit superior to the 2.7.

 

[therealseebs]

Failure would mean, IMO, that people switched to dell bc of it. For example, if people hypothetically said they're switching to Androids bc no headphone jack then removing it would mean that move was a failure, but I don't think that happened (?) fortunately for Apple.

Gimmick just means it's like Siri IMO lol.

FWIW: I will never buy a phone without a headphone jack if I have a choice, because I use wired headsets because I really hate having a separate battery that needs to be separately charged, and also I've never had good luck with audio quality on them. I was gonna get a new phone but decided to get a Google Pixel instead of an iphone because I might as well jump ship now because Apple will never, ever, bring back a feature they removed.

And while I had a lot of complaints about the 2016 MBP, the touchbar replacing the function key row was one of the big ones. The actual showstopper was that I can't stand the ultrathin keyboard, but even with a keyboard I could otherwise type on, losing the function key row was a significant problem for me.

So I'd call them "failures", because I've been using Macs for various things since 1987 or so, and I have used NeXTStep or OS X pretty much as much of the time as I possibly could since 1989 or so. I was super happy with OS X, I moved a bunch of stuff that had been on other systems to OS X and consolidated my computers on it, and... Well, here I am on Linux, because Apple will no longer sell me things that can do the things I need my computer and phone to do. (Not entirely true, I could still buy a 6s phone, but.)

 

[poorcody]

I have to add, that I think "out-of-the-box" the touch bar isn't all that useful and might even be arguably gimmicky...

But, once I started creating touchbar macros, wow... I have to say I have found it to be very useful, much more so than I would have suspected. I have probably 20 macros in each application that I use and find them noticeable productivity boosters.

And while I realize I could do macros in other ways before, the bottom line was I never did, but now I use them all the time... like most UI stuff, you technically can do it without the UI, but having it "visual" makes one use them more, IMO. I actually miss not having the touchbar on my desktop Mac now...

 

[Hieveryone]

Will they? No way! They don't even allow you to customize the 13-inch with the same features that the TB models have!!! It seems the reason Apple offers this is because they are killing the Air, and the MacBook cannot meet the needs of all Air users, who may not want to spend TB money on their Air replacement, and may not want the iPad Pro.

I agree that offering a 15 without the touch bar would more or less be an admission that not everyone: absolutely loves it, thinks it is far superior to a touch screen or function keys, and is demanding to have it on their flagship product. I'd also prefer the 15 without.




The 2.0 is actually a reasonably capable processor. The lower base clock speed is somewhat misleading. It seems to be roughly comparable to the 2015's 2.9 GHz i5 and a bit superior to the 2.7.

Yea but isn't that for high end useage?

Like wouldn't a 2015 2.9 GHz still be faster than a 2016 2.0 GHz for basic tasks like launching apps and stuff?

 

[Naimfan]

Unfortunately I can't say I'd buy a 2016 15" even without a touchbar, because I think that's the least of the problems the machine presents. I've written elsewhere about the mistakes I think Apple made with this version, and so won't repeat them here. I will say that until Apple can improve the keyboard so it does not feel like you're typing on an iPad I won't buy one until I have no other choice.

 

[Sanpete]

I agree that offering a 15 without the touch bar would more or less be an admission that not everyone: absolutely loves it, thinks it is far superior to a touch screen or function keys, and is demanding to have it on their flagship product.

It would also cost them money to produce a different version, so unless there was a large demand, it wouldn't be worth it. Same kind of thing as with the matte screen.

I have probably 20 macros in each application that I use and find them noticeable productivity boosters.

Wow!

Unfortunately I can't say I'd buy a 2016 15" even without a touchbar, because I think that's the least of the problems the machine presents. I've written elsewhere about the mistakes I think Apple made with this version, and so won't repeat them here. I will say that until Apple can improve the keyboard so it does not feel like you're typing on an iPad I won't buy one until I have no other choice.

This thread, like so many others, isn't complete without you saying that you've already said why you don't like things the thread isn't about.

 

[SteveJUAE]

It would also cost them money to produce a different version, so unless there was a large demand, it wouldn't be worth it. Same kind of thing as with the matte screen.

You may need to rethink this

We have no idea if it costs more to produce, it could equally be cost neutral or cheaper, it may well be there is more costs involved to stock, ship service multiple models but we also have no idea if sales would balance this out

Further more no one said it had to be the same price as the TB version + or - $

The risk may well be lack of demand and stock left on the shelves unless it's build to order option only

 

[Sanpete]

You may need to rethink this

We have no idea if it costs more to produce, it could equally be cost neutral or cheaper, it may well be there is more costs involved to stock, ship service multiple models but we also have no idea if sales would balance this out

Further more no one said it had to be the same price as the TB version + or - $

The risk may well be lack of demand and stock left on the shelves unless it's build to order option only

Can't tell what you want me to rethink, since what you say doesn't conflict with what I said. It costs money to make any alteration. It would require designing, testing and producing a different top case, and a few other things would have to be changed. The production cost would eventually be less than for the TB version for a similar number of units, but they would still need confidence there would be enough demand to cover the initial costs and produce enough to reach the per-unit target cost.

 

[Appleaker]

No, this will never happen.
I think the introduction of a non-TB 13" MBP caused confusion as to why they didn't do it for the 15". Think of the non-TB MBP as a 13" MacBook - essentially the MacBook Air successor that is powerful enough to be in the 13" MBP category.

 

[ZapNZs]

Yea but isn't that for high end useage?

Like wouldn't a 2015 2.9 GHz still be faster than a 2016 2.0 GHz for basic tasks like launching apps and stuff?

The usage shouldn't make much of a difference, as the 2.0 has both single and multi core stats that indicate improvements over the base 2.7 of last year (with bigger improvements in multi.) Both the 2.7 from 2015 and the 2.0 from 2016 have turbo frequencies of 3.1 GHz. The 2.0 has a larger cache, IIRC a sightly lower latency, a higher memory bandwidth, and slightly better integrated graphics. With the much lower base frequency (which I assume is for efficiency purposes?), it appears to be a very weak CPU. However, it performs quite well. Additionally, it doesn't have to power a touch bar, which is probably a bit of a CPU/GPU hog. Someone more knowledgable than me could probably better explain the CPU differences and its implications, but the gist is that, compared to entry-level tiers of previous MacBook Pros, the 2.0 CPU is a modest performance upgrade.

I had a chance to play with a 2.0 and the first thing I did was see how well it ran VMs. It does it quite well, to the point where I am about ready to buy.

 

[masotime]

But, once I started creating touchbar macros, wow... I have to say I have found it to be very useful, much more so than I would have suspected. I have probably 20 macros in each application that I use and find them noticeable productivity boosters.

Could you give an example or two of a macro for an application you created, and how it boosts your productivity in a way a keyboard shortcut could not....?

 

[Sanpete]

in a way a keyboard shortcut could not....?

He said, "you technically can do it without the UI, but having it "visual" makes one use them more, IMO." Still, it would be interesting to have an example of how he uses the macros.

 

[masotime]

He said, "you technically can do it without the UI, but having it "visual" makes one use them more, IMO." Still, it would be interesting to have an example of how he uses the macros.

Having it "visual making one use them more" is a definite productivity boost over a keyboard shortcut, since it is literally boosting efficiency as a shortcut being used more often.

 

[SteveJUAE]

Can't tell what you want me to rethink, since what you say doesn't conflict with what I said. It costs money to make any alteration. It would require designing, testing and producing a different top case, and a few other things would have to be changed. The production cost would eventually be less than for the TB version for a similar number of units, but they would still need confidence there would be enough demand to cover the initial costs and produce enough to reach the per-unit target cost.

Sorry if you can't see the difference I can't help you

 

[Vagueinterest]

Well done Sanpete for having the motivation to put up some resistance with some well made points.

I'm no fanboy and I'm open to discussion and critique of the subjects discussed here.

However, this forum has become inundated with people who love to hate Apple and people who behave like scorned lovers.

Any thread about the new Macbook Pro is not complete without someone reeling out opinions that Apple markets them for "Pro's" and "real" pro's don't want a slim light weight laptop they want function keys, legacy ports, SD card slots, thick cases with massive batteries, 32GB Ram, the latest gaming graphics card (even though they are really a Pro?) etc. etc. etc. These people have had enough of Apple's greedy ways and after years of loyal custom they are going to move to Microsoft/Dell/some other make.

As a reminder to these people, the marketing term "Pro" simply means higher spec models and is aimed at both private and Pro users. Also, specialist I.T. professionals/developers who need more than 16GB Ram, function keys, powerful gaming graphics, legacy ports etc. make up just a tiny proportion of 'Pro' users. There are many professions out there who need a laptop that has the improved specs of the currently available Macbook Pros but no more. Apple did market research and made carefully considered decisions. They offer what they think the majority of the market wants and they have probably got it just right.

As a minority group, those who need something more or different are not being catered for. It would be great if Apple recognised that also making something for these customers might be worth more than just the revenue earned by a few sales. However, Apple will not and should not change what suits the majority to what suits the minority because that minority makes a lot of noise.

After reading these forums it is easy to start believing that Apple have got it all wrong and their latest products are complete flops. My own experience could not be more different. I have a 13" TB MacBook Pro. It is far and away the best laptop I have had. After a short period getting used to the keyboard I much prefer it to the old style, my battery life is consistently good, 10-12 hours, I have had zero problems. I am still getting used to the TB. So far it is not a revolutionary feature but is a far more useful than standard function keys and obviously superior to any touch screen laptop solutions. Keyboard shortcuts are still available to use and in my opinion the TB is a nice addition for the majority of users. The need for dongles is no problem at all. They sit in a pouch with the charger and cables or stay attached to a peripheral when not used. When used they are flexible so place less strain on plugged in devices and all fit sit by side without a bulky device ever blocking an adjacent port. The multi-port capability of USB-C is revolutionary.

Noisy complainers, I hope you get what you want but please turn it down a notch, reduce the hamster wheel nature of your complaints and try to see the bigger picture. Sorry - not trying to be unsympathetic!
[doublepost=1487593653][/doublepost]

FWIW: I will never buy a phone without a headphone jack if I have a choice, because I use wired headsets because I really hate having a separate battery that needs to be separately charged, and also I've never had good luck with audio quality on them. I was gonna get a new phone but decided to get a Google Pixel instead of an iphone because I might as well jump ship now because Apple will never, ever, bring back a feature they removed.

FWIW: Use the provided dongle, plug in your headphones. When not in use, leave the dongle attached to your headphones. Not that difficult really?