Macbook Pro 2016 model battery self-discharge/drain while completely shut down

Discussion in 'MacBook Pro' started by MaximK, Aug 14, 2017.

?

Does your Macbook Pro battery self-discharges after complete shutdown?

  1. No

    30.3%
  2. 1%-2% every 24 hours on average

    21.2%
  3. >2% every 24 hours on average

    48.5%
  4. 3%-5% per month on average when stored

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. MaximK, Aug 14, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017

    MaximK macrumors newbie

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    #1
    Hi everyone, I am new to MBP and I have the following issue with my non-Touchbar 2016 MacBook Pro - when I shut it down completely (through the menu) it still drains the battery at the rate of approximately 1%-2% every 24 hours. At first I thought it was normal behavior to lose the charge at that rate but when I tested my wife's 2015 MacBook Pro it did not even drop 1% over 48 hours while it was shut down. I am reaching out to Macrumors community with similar 2016 MBPs, can you test and see if your battery drains slowly when you completely shut your MBP down for a day or two? Is this behavior normal? If it is then why it's not happening on 2015 MBP?

    According to the research ( http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/elevating_self_discharge ) Li-ion batteries self-discharge rate should be around 1%-2% per month and not per day (see attached screenshot)! Since I only have 2 MBP machines I obviously have limited data so if anyone could confirm their self-discharge rates when your MBP is completely off I would really appreciate that.

    One thing to note is that I have bootcamp installed on my machine and I wonder if that somehow impacts the battery.

    Thank you everyone for your responses.

    P.S. I did battery calibration, SMC reset, power nap turned off etc.


    Bat.jpg
     
  2. New_Mac_Smell macrumors 65816

    New_Mac_Smell

    Joined:
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    #2
    According to that link:

    "Li-ion self-discharges about 5 percent in the first 24 hours and then loses 1–2 percent per month; the protection circuit adds another 3 percent per month"

    A lot depends on whether you are putting the computer to sleep or actually shutting it down. But this isn't something you should concern yourself with really. Why don't you leave it plugged in at night? Is it imperative you are able to charge it one day and then not use it for a week, but then must use it on battery?

    Between 80-100% battery capacity is effetely 'overcharged', so that range depletes the fastest. At around 80% the battery is at an optimum level. So I'm guessing you are taking it straight off charge and turning it off, and then becoming concerned about percentage loss the next day?

    "Self-discharge is not a manufacturing defect but a battery characteristic"

    And

    "The energy loss is asymptotical, meaning that the self-discharge is highest right after charge and then tapers off"
     
  3. EgGKeith macrumors member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2015
    #3
    I think drain around 5% in every 24 hours is acceptable.
     
  4. MaximK thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #4
    Hi there! Thanks for your response. I do shut it down (not sleep or hybernate).

    No, it's not imperative for me that I dont use it for a week and then use it on a battery but:
    a) For my own sanity I need to know wheter it's a defect or not.
    b) I use my laptop only a few times a month so it is important for me to have a well functioning battery otherwise I will be charging MBP more than I actually use it which would prematurely kill the battery. My expectation that after shutting down I can return to my MBP a week later and still have the same charge which would allow me to only charge it 1-2 times per month (Yes, I am a light user)

    You are right about higher discharge rate immediately after fully charging MBP. However, discharge rates (~1-2% every 24 hrs) that I have observed were measured with the battery levels below 80% over the course of 4-5 days on several different occasions.

    Thanks
    --- Post Merged, Aug 14, 2017 ---
    Thats how much roughly it should drain in a SLEEP mode. It's definitely not acceptable for a battery to lose 5% every 24 hrs after complete shutdown.Thanks.
     
  5. New_Mac_Smell macrumors 65816

    New_Mac_Smell

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    #5
    So do you want confirmation that it isn't a defect (If you read that article you quoted you'd have that). Or do you want people to confirm it's a defect for you?

    What you are experiencing is perfectly normal and expected. If you take the battery out of the computer and set it aside, then you'd see numbers more closely aligned with the article, however these are attached to a computer permanently and are subject to any number of things. Temperature/humidity, things like large power drain prior to shutdown (Can have a residual effect for a period).

    Your expectation there is physically impossible given current battery technology for mobile devices. Batteries are not banks which store power until used, they are in a constant state of flux. They are charged to hold power and then discharged when in use. If they are not in use, the rate of discharge is less but still present. This is due to the nature of how batteries work, with electrons wanting to flow from one cathode to the other, you cannot stop that occurring, but you can slow it down with better battery technology. Which as I mentioned does not exist in a mobile format at the moment.

    As to why the 2015 is different from yours, again any number of things. Mostly different batteries, but also implementation, charge calculation algorithms, how the computer is being used etc.

    If you want people to confirm this, then you'll have to take it to Apple and have them explain it all/give up. But I'm telling you not to worry and not to expend any more energy on worrying about battery charge... Take it or leave it.
     
  6. maerz001, Aug 15, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017

    maerz001 macrumors 6502

    maerz001

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2010
    #6
    Apple states 1000 charging cycles. so your battery life would be around 50-80 years.

    Maybe you are really too concerned o_O
     
  7. New_Mac_Smell macrumors 65816

    New_Mac_Smell

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    #7
    I don't remember saying this?
     
  8. MaximK, Aug 15, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017

    MaximK thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #8
    That sounds nice!!!! :)
    --- Post Merged, Aug 15, 2017 ---
    I absolutely agree with you! Self-discharge will always be present in batteries. What I am actually questioning whether 1% every 24 hrs is reasonable or not. General expectation for half-charged battery is that it would lose, when not in use, 3%-5% per month and not 25-30% per month some people are experiencing here.
     
  9. maerz001 macrumors 6502

    maerz001

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    Nov 2, 2010
    #9
    ups. No this was the OP...
     
  10. peraspera macrumors member

    peraspera

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    #10
    The self-discharge curve of batteries is not linear. A 1% drop in the first day after charging does not mean there will be a 30% drop over 30 days. There is a sharp drop in discharge right after charging then it levels out considerably as shown for lithium ion batteries in Figure 5.
    http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/elevating_self_discharge
     
  11. MaximK, Aug 16, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017

    MaximK thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #11
    Correct. When I tested my battery the starting pint was around 70% charge so it was not fully charged and discharge should be fairly linear from that point forward.
     
  12. joefoong79 macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2017
    #12
    Only matter is what percentage level is your machine charge before shut down. If you were 100% then very likely you will not see the drop. But at any level at 99% or after then will showing.
     
  13. peraspera macrumors member

    peraspera

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    #13
    If a 70% charged battery is routinely showing a 1-2% drop in one day's time I would take your MPB in to Apple to have them check the battery and to also check that nothing is amiss that might be slowly draining it. However, the percentage of remaining battery life being shown isn't known for being all that accurate so it may simply be that your MPB isn't really self-discharging as much as being shown.
     
  14. MaximK thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #14
    I assume per your message you actually agree with me that 1%-2% over 24 hrs is not normal for a turned off MBP....
     
  15. peraspera macrumors member

    peraspera

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    #15
    It sounds odd enough that I would keep on eye on things for a few days to see if the MPB showed similar self discharge drops when the battery is between 60-80%. If it doesn't I would strongly suspect the battery percentage MBP battery reading being inaccurate. If it does show consistent 1%-2% drops I would have Apple check things.
     
  16. MaximK, Aug 24, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017

    MaximK thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #16
    Did more testing over the past 1 1/2 weeks:

    MBP 2015 Turned off on Sunday August 13th around 12:00 PM with 74%
    MBP 2015 Turned on on Thursday Aug 24th around 6:00 AM with 69%

    Total estimated discharge: ~5% or ~0.5% per day

    MBP 2016 Turned off on Sunday August 13th around 12:00 PM with 64%
    MBP 2016 Turned on on Thursday Aug 24th around 6:00 AM with 55%

    Total estimated discharge: ~9% or ~0.9% per day

    Any thoughts? Long term discharge rate is fairly reasonable on 2016 MBP at ~ 1% per day (I assume 20%-30% per month) but still way over expected 5% per month discharge for this type of battery and almost double of 2015 MBP discharge rates.
     
  17. Pulpe macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2017
    Location:
    Paris
    #17
    Hi,

    My MacBook Pro 2016 with Touch Bar is self discharging 6% per 24 hours when completely off (shutdown).

    I never had this issue with my different old MacBook.

    After several tests, Genius Bar expert tells me that the behaviour is nomal, and certainly due to new hardware generation (perhaps a component not completely off after a shutdown).

    The guy gaves me back my computer saying if I want to change a hardware component, like my battery (20 charging cycles...), I have to pay because my Mac has no issue...

    No issue... How a machine can stay "up to 30 days in standby time" if it losts, in real life, 6% per day when switched off and much more in standby mode?

    I also have a Surface Pro with "new hardware generation" and I haven't any battery discharging problem when switched off...
     
  18. MaximK, Aug 29, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017

    MaximK thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #18
    I feel your pain, really. I have done extensive testing and I average around 1% discharge when my MBP is completely off (non-touch bar though) which I also think is NOT normal for a machine that is completely TURNED OFF. It should not take 1% or, in your case, 6% per day to run internal clock and circuit protector. I am affraid this so-called "genius" is wrong and 6% is excessive for a machine that is SHUT DOWN. I am not sure what to recommend at this point....buy a new one (then return) and test for a few days so you have discharge rates to compare between the two machines? Wait for more people to reply to this thread so we can establish what is "normal" discharge rate for 2016-2017 MBP models? Try a different apple store in your area?

    When you are measuring/testing discharge rates make sure you dont start with 100% full battery. Have you tried SMC reset (I did without any positive results)? Tried turning bluetooth off before shutting down...

    Have you tried shutting down surface pro for a few days? What is the discharge rate on that one after shutdown? There should be some I would expect....that would also help for comparison purposes.

    Please keep us updated.

    P.S. My battery cycle count is 18
     
  19. Pulpe macrumors newbie

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    Paris
    #19
    You must know that, after a thirty minutes phone call with the Apple Store manager (yes, really), the Genius rans a second series of tests, but in comparative mode with a machine identical of mine and a MacBook Pro 2016 like yours (ie, without Touch Bar).

    His feedback was :
    5-6% / 24h battery discharge for the model with Touch Bar
    4% / 24 h battery discharge for the model without Touch Bar

    I was not convinced about this results, and this is confirmed by seeing your own measures.

    I don't have precise values for the Surface Pro, but after several unused days , the self discharge was not significant.
    --- Post Merged, Aug 29, 2017 ---
    An yes, I've done all possibly try (SMC and NVRAM reset, clean install, turn off wifi / BT / notifications / icloud, ...).

    When I use "pmset -g log" command, i don't see any activty when the computer is off.
     
  20. diamond.g macrumors 603

    diamond.g

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    Virginia
    #20
    I didn’t bring my MBP with me to work today, but if you turn it off does it power back on when opening the lid? Not sure if the no Touchbar models have the power on when lid open feature.
     
  21. MaximK, Aug 29, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017

    MaximK thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #21
    Thanks for additional information. it is really helpful.
    Here is my opinion: at the Apple store they probably don't test batteries by turning off MBP and waiting several days to take a subsequent measurement, they probably hook up equipment that tells them discharge rates and they calculate an average discharge per 24 hrs. The battery discharge is NOT linear so it may discharge more in the first hours and then less so the only way to find out your actual discharge is shut down the MBP (with battery less than 80%) and patiently wait for a week or so (that's what I did with mine). I am also not buying that 4%-6% per 24 hrs is normal discharge for a MBP that is shut down completely, how in the world it would last up to 30 days in standby mode if it cannot even last 30 days powered off?!

    As far as my measurements go - keep in mind that I turned off power nap, I turned off bluetooth and I think I even tried turning off wi-fi at some point when I was testing my discharge rates. I also think that discharge rate for my MBP is higher within the first couple of days so it is possible that 2016 non-touch bar discharges 2%-4% in the FIRST 24 hrs or so and then flattens out after that. Like I said earlier I've lost 9% over 10 days but I have no idea how much discharge rate was in the first day.

    All I can say at this point - let's just wait for more volunteers on this forum who don't use their machines daily and can shut down their 2016-2017 MBPs for a few days and then report the results here. This way we can hopefully establish what the average normal is. That's exactly why I am trying to keep this thread alive so we have more statistical data on self-discharge rates after shutdown.
    --- Post Merged, Aug 29, 2017 ---
    My 2016 non-touch bar does turn on after complete shut down if I open the lid. My wife's 2015 MBP does not and you have to press the button to turn on. How does it relate to this discussion though?

    http://osxdaily.com/2017/01/19/disable-boot-on-open-lid-macbook-pro/
     
  22. diamond.g macrumors 603

    diamond.g

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    #22
    Because the drain is likely higher as more of the computer is awake in order to know the lid is opening.
     
  23. MaximK, Aug 29, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017

    MaximK thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #23
    --- Post Merged, Aug 29, 2017 ---
    True, I see your point. Same applies to the physical button though, computer needs to know when it's pressed to turn on, right? There is discharge for that but again, should be very very minimal (4%-5% per month maybe). One way to test - turn off that function in the terminal (I posted link above) and test discharge rates again. I could do that but I am afraid I won't find the way to turn that function back on after I am done testing :)
     
  24. diamond.g macrumors 603

    diamond.g

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    #24
    This terminal command should disable the feature. You should be able to test to see if the battery life improves.
    Code:
    sudo nvram AutoBoot=%00
     
  25. Pulpe macrumors newbie

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    Aug 29, 2017
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    Paris
    #25
    The Genius guy allready disable this feature (as he said) and didn't note any changes.

    When I took back my machine, i check the log and I saw that the computer was really turned on by somebody every day.

    The starting charge was under 90%, and every day, the battery lost 5-6%.

    The Genius guy saw this log and, even if he was aggreed with my surprise, concludes that my computer had no issue...
     

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