Macbook Pro 2016 model battery self-discharge/drain while completely shut down

[MaximK]

The Genius guy allready disable this feature (as he said) and didn't note any changes.

When I took back my machine, i check the log and I saw that the computer was really turned on by somebody every day.

The starting charge was under 90%, and every day, the battery loose 5-6%.

The Genius guy saw this log and, even if he was aggreed with my surprise, he concludes that my computer had no issue...

Take a look at the very first post "Li-Ion self-discharges about 5% in the first 24 hours and then loses 1-2 percent per month". IF that is the case I assume that every time you or "genius" turn your machine back on and then shut down you could lose 5% in the first 24 hrs all over again...maybe.... What if you shut it down let's say for 3 days - are you gonna lose 15%-18% or is it going to be more like 6%-8% over 72 hrs (5%-6% in first 24 hrs and then very minimal discharge over the next 48 hrs +/- power needed to power back on and +/- for battery meter accuracy). Try shutting it down for at least 3 days and let us know.
[doublepost=1504020770][/doublepost]

Hi,

My MacBook Pro 2016 with Touch Bar is self discharging 6% per 24 hours when completely off (shutdown).

I never had this issue with my different old MacBook.

After several tests, Genius Bar expert tells me that the behaviour is nomal, and certainly due to new hardware generation (perhaps a component not completely off after a shutdown).

The guy gaves me back my computer saying if I want to change a hardware component, like my battery (20 charging cycles...), I have to pay because my Mac has no issue...

No issue... How a machine can stay "up to 30 days in standby time" if it losts, in real life, 6% per day when switched off and much more in standby mode?

I also have a Surface Pro with "new hardware generation" and I haven't any battery discharging problem when switched off...

According to the poll above as of 08/29/2017 over 30% of MBP users indicate that they have no discharge at all and that's alarming for us who have machines that self discharge consistently :-(

 

[Pulpe]

Take a look at the very first post "Li-Ion self-discharges about 5% in the first 24 hours and then loses 1-2 percent per month". IF that is the case I assume that every time you or "genius" turn your machine back on and then shut down you could lose 5% in the first 24 hrs all over again...maybe.... What if you shut it down let's say for 3 days - are you gonna lose 15%-18% or is it going to be more like 6%-8% over 72 hrs (5%-6% in first 24 hrs and then very minimal discharge over the next 48 hrs +/- power needed to power back on and +/- for battery meter accuracy). Try shutting it down for at least 3 days and let us know.

First, thank you for your help.

The discharge is really 5-6% per day, and so accumulates by the time (I checked it last week for a 4 days period).

To be precise, I saw this issue after coming back from a two weeks holiday in July. My battery charge was about 95% when I left, and about 30% two week after. It is why I started to check my battery in detail at this time.

My previous machine, a MacBook Air, didn't lost any charge (or a very little) when switched off for several days.

 

[MaximK]

First, thank you for your help.

The discharge is really 5-6% per day, and so accumulates by the time (I checked it last week for a 4 days period).

To be precise, I saw this issue after coming back from a two weeks holiday in July. My battery charge was about 95% when I left, and about 30% two week after. It is why I started to check my battery in detail at this time.

My previous machine, a MacBook Air, didn't lost any charge (or a very little) when switched off for several days.

Darn it....do you have another apple store in the area you can try? Friends who you can borrow MBP from to test? If not, let's just wait for more responses with discharge rates data in this thread.

 

[Pulpe]

Darn it....do you have another apple store in the area you can try? Friends who you can borrow MBP from to test? If not, let's just wait for more responses with discharge rates data in this thread.

Yes, there is an other Apple Store near me (we have two in Paris, and a third in some months).

I prefer waiting some more responses in this thread, to have a real life feedback, before returning to a Genius Bar.
[doublepost=1504022725][/doublepost]

I sent an email to Tim this morning (really)...

 

[MaximK]

Yes, there is an other Apple Store near me (we have two in Paris, and a third in some months).

I prefer waiting some more responses in this thread, to have a real life feedback, before returning to a Genius Bar.
[doublepost=1504022725][/doublepost]

I sent an email to Tim this morning (really)...

I would be shocked if he replies ))))

 

[peraspera]

Battery University states that, "5% in 24h, then 1–2% per month (plus 3% for safety circuit)," is normal for lithium-ion battery self-discharge." They also state, "The self-discharge of all battery chemistries increases at higher temperature, and the rate typically doubles with every 10°C (18°F)."
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/elevating_self_discharge

It seems quite reasonable to me to be quite firm in insisting that Apple fix the problem if one is experiencing self-discharge rates which are significantly worse than what Battery University indicates. I would be surprised if Apple would be able to cough up any independent, reliably sourced data contrary to Battery University's statements.

Battery University is silent on the issue of the safety of new lithium-ion batteries showing excessive self-discharge rates but the burden of proof should fall heavily on Apple to provide independent data indicating that they are, indeed, safe should they try to weasel out of fixing the problem. Given the potential nasty safety consequences of misbehaving lithium-ion batteries it is probably the most prudent approach to not wait to see if others are experiencing similar self-discharge issues before having the issue fixed.

A 24 hour self-discharge test seems rather pointless when the excessive self-discharge issue is occurring well outside that time frame.

Tim Cook's office has staff that handles customer complaints sent to his email. The responses aren't always speedy but people nearly always indicate that complaints are dealt with quite reasonably. The people who staff Customer Relations at Apple are also quite good at sorting out problems if things go south at an Apple Store or with Customer Support. Just ask to speak with a rep when calling Apple.

 

[jerryk]

My 2015 15" drops a 2% a day. It is no big deal since I charge before I go anywhere without power.

 

[MaximK]

My 2015 15" drops a 2% a day. It is no big deal since I charge before I go anywhere without power.

Thank you for your feedback, it's very helpful. I tested my wife's 2015 13" and it drops 0.5% per 24 hrs on average.
[doublepost=1504104052][/doublepost]

Battery University states that, "5% in 24h, then 1–2% per month (plus 3% for safety circuit)," is normal for lithium-ion battery self-discharge." They also state, "The self-discharge of all battery chemistries increases at higher temperature, and the rate typically doubles with every 10°C (18°F)."
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/elevating_self_discharge

It seems quite reasonable to me to be quite firm in insisting that Apple fix the problem if one is experiencing self-discharge rates which are significantly worse than what Battery University indicates. I would be surprised if Apple would be able to cough up any independent, reliably sourced data contrary to Battery University's statements.

Battery University is silent on the issue of the safety of new lithium-ion batteries showing excessive self-discharge rates but the burden of proof should fall heavily on Apple to provide independent data indicating that they are, indeed, safe should they try to weasel out of fixing the problem. Given the potential nasty safety consequences of misbehaving lithium-ion batteries it is probably the most prudent approach to not wait to see if others are experiencing similar self-discharge issues before having the issue fixed.

A 24 hour self-discharge test seems rather pointless when the excessive self-discharge issue is occurring well outside that time frame.

Tim Cook's office has staff that handles customer complaints sent to his email. The responses aren't always speedy but people nearly always indicate that complaints are dealt with quite reasonably. The people who staff Customer Relations at Apple are also quite good at sorting out problems if things go south at an Apple Store or with Customer Support. Just ask to speak with a rep when calling Apple.

I agree, 24 hrs tests are pointless. I would say at least 72 hrs (one week would be better) just to get an idea of an average discharge.
[doublepost=1504104736][/doublepost]

It seems quite reasonable to me to be quite firm in insisting that Apple fix the problem if one is experiencing self-discharge rates which are significantly worse than what Battery University indicates.

What we are trying to determine is whether there is actually a problem or something is just sucking up power as designed when MBP is off (memory, internal clock, circuit etc). According to the poll above almost 70% of users experience discharge rates of more than 1% per day. Could the issue be more widespread than we think?...

 

[Pulpe]

Hello,

I tried disabling the auto-boot (with "sudo nvram AutoBoot=%00"). The feature is effectively disabled but, instead of auto-booting when opening the lid, the screen shows a battery indicating the charge level (like an Android tablet...) for some seconds.

Since yesterday evening (just less than 24 hours), my battery lost 7% after a complete shutdown...

 

[MaximK]

Hello,

I tried disabling the auto-boot (with "sudo nvram AutoBoot=%00"). The feature is effectively disabled but, instead of auto-booting when opening the lid, the screen shows a battery indicating the charge level (like an Android tablet...) for some seconds.

Since yesterday evening (just less than 24 hours), my battery lost 7% after a complete shutdown...

Yeah....I don't think it does anything to minimize self-discharge

 

[Pulpe]

Self-discharge or internal hardware component (like Touch Bar processor, Thunderbolt controller, ...) continuously powered on...

No news from Tim for instance, but I think he has a lot of work preparing the next September keynote...

 

[peraspera]

Thank you for your feedback, it's very helpful. I tested my wife's 2015 13" and it drops 0.5% per 24 hrs on average.
[doublepost=1504104052][/doublepost]
I agree, 24 hrs tests are pointless. I would say at least 72 hrs (one week would be better) just to get an idea of an average discharge.
[doublepost=1504104736][/doublepost]

What we are trying to determine is whether there is actually a problem or something is just sucking up power as designed when MBP is off (memory, internal clock, circuit etc). According to the poll above almost 70% of users experience discharge rates of more than 1% per day. Could the issue be more widespread than we think?...

A 2% daily battery self-discharge is inconsistent with the information provided by both Battery University and Apple themselves about self-discharge, https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201725. That would lead one to suspect that the MPB is drawing more power when shut down than it was designed to do.

It seems to me that it would be quite difficult to determine the cause at a consumer level. Insisting on a sensible, logical explanation from Apple battery engineering seems to me to be a very reasonable request if an Apple genius or Apple phone support insists that no repairs are necessary. Battery behavior outside the norm brings up safety questions that should clarified by experts.

No news from Tim for instance, but I think he has a lot of work preparing the next September keynote...

It seems to typically take a couple of days to a couple of weeks for Cook's people to respond to customer complaints. While possible, it would be doubtful that those particular people would be occupied with event planning.

 

[MaximK]

A 2% daily battery self-discharge is inconsistent with the information provided by both Battery University and Apple themselves about self-discharge, https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201725. That would lead one to suspect that the MPB is drawing more power when shut down than it was designed to do.

Based on the Apple link you've provided the battery should last 30-60 days with 50% charge left on a turned off MBP which equals 0.8%-1.7% self-discharge per day or roughly, I would say, ~1% on average (since Apple expects you can actually still operate MBP after 60 days). I would tend to agree that anything over ~2% per day would be excessive and anything around 1%-1.5% should be somewhat ok according to Apple. A few things to note, ambient temperature can impact the discharge rates as well as battery charge level (70% charged battery would discharge faster than 50% charged battery). Since my 2016 MBP lost on average ~1% per 24 hrs over 10 days I feel much better about my MBP as it can probably last in storage for 40-50 days with 50% charged battery (sorry, but not gonna test it for 50 days straight ).

While I am still not happy with ~1% self-discharge per day (considering my wife's 2015 MBP only loses ~0.5% per day and some users in this thread report ~0% discharge) I believe there is not much I can do since it is still within Apple's guidelines per peraspera's link.

If I understand Apple's memo regarding batteries correctly after 90 days Macbook battery charged to 50% will drain completely to the point it cannot be turned on without charging first. With that being said, I would expect a ~0.5% discharge per day at the very minimum. But because in their memo Apple uses words "might be" and "should be" quite a bit this number can vary.

5% per day that Pulpe is reporting is definitely not within normal limits.

[doublepost=1504190598][/doublepost]

Self-discharge or internal hardware component (like Touch Bar processor, Thunderbolt controller, ...) continuously powered on...

No news from Tim for instance, but I think he has a lot of work preparing the next September keynote...

Pulpe, I would use the Apple link peraspera provided to support your claim. 50% charged MBP should last up to 60 days and still be able to be powered on which means discharge rate should be within ~0.8%-1.5% per day. If your 50% charged MBP discharges entirely to the point you can't turn it on in less than 30 days there is definitely an issue.

 

[Pulpe]

Pulpe, I would use the Apple link peraspera provided to support your claim. 50% charged MBP should last up to 60 days which means discharge rate should be within 0.8%-1.7% per day.

You're right, I'll try to open a new ticket with Apple Care.

But Apple plays with words: 'you don't have any battery problem' (meaning non self discharge) 'but it is normal to have 5-6% battery drain with new hardware when Mac is switched off' (confirmed, as they said to me, by engeneering)...

Look at these old threads :

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5711194

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/is-the-macbook-airs-battery-supposed-to-run-down-when-switched-off.1623871/

 

[MaximK]

You're right, I'll try to open a new ticket with Apple Care.

But Apple plays with words: 'you don't have any battery problem' (meaning non self discharge) 'but it is normal to have 5-6% battery drain with new hardware when Mac is switched off' (confirmed, as they said to me, by engeneering)...

Look at these old threads :

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5711194

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/is-the-macbook-airs-battery-supposed-to-run-down-when-switched-off.1623871/

Yes, I have seen these old threads. Unfortunately most people never report back after finding or not finding a cure to their problems or you get a mixed bag of answers normal vs not-normal. If you read through them you would notice that a lot of people complain but nobody ever reported a solution or an official response from Apple engineers.

 

[Pulpe]

Hi,

I carried out some tests in sleep mode (by closing the lid) with the smallest possible energy footprint.

I disabled :
- Wake for Wi-Fi network access
- Power Nap
- iCloud Drive
- Find My Mac
- TCPKeepAlive (sudo pmset -b tcpkeepalive 0)

I enabled :
- Turn on Do Not Disturb when the display is sleeping

Within a 24-hour period, I observed (with pmset -g log) only one darkware, about three hours after closing the lid, to turn the mac in hibernate mode.

After these 24 hours, the battery was discharged about 6% (1% for the first three hours)... So the result is identical as completely shutting down the Mac...

As, for a given time period, self discharge cannot be equal to self discharge + (low) power consumption, I really think a something is draining the battery in shutdown mode.

 

[JohnnyGo]

Hi,

I carried out some tests in sleep mode (by closing the lid) with the smallest possible energy footprint.

I disabled :
- Wake for Wi-Fi network access
- Power Nap
- iCloud Drive
- Find My Mac
- TCPKeepAlive (sudo pmset -b tcpkeepalive 0)

I enabled :
- Turn on Do Not Disturb when the display is sleeping

Within a 24-hour period, I observed (with pmset -g log) only one darkware, about three hours after closing the lid, to turn the mac in hibernate mode.

After these 24 hours, the battery was discharged about 6% (1% for the first three hours)... So the result is identical as completely shutting down the Mac...

As, for a given time period, self discharge cannot be equal to self discharge + (low) power consumption, I really think a something is draining the battery in shutdown mode.

My experience was close to 10% discharge while sleeping which is completely unacceptable. I’m having my 2016 MBP battery replaced by Apple under warranty.

Reading here that in SHUTDOWN mode people are experiencing 5-6% discharge is even more unacceptable.

There’s something fishy with this crop/crap of intel CPUs and/or motherboard.

 

[sinsin]

Normally I use my 2016 15 inch MacBook Pro connected to the power adapter and occasionally on battery when I don't need other peripherals.

The week end my computer is off and recently I have noticed a battery drain of 5-7%.

The battery life while using the computer seems fine, also in sleep mode there is not a lot of power drain.

I have older MacBooks without this issue.

Hope we can find more information about this behaviour!

 

[Pulpe]

My experience was close to 10% discharge while sleeping which is completely unacceptable. I’m having my 2016 MBP battery replaced by Apple under warranty.

Reading here that in SHUTDOWN mode people are experiencing 5-6% discharge is even more unacceptable.

There’s something fishy with this crop/crap of intel CPUs and/or motherboard.

Hi ,

Please, can you test the battery discharge when your Mac is completely shutdown? Do you have a touch bar model?

 

[CraigBoliek]

I think drain around 5% in every 24 hours is acceptable.

Yea, five percent is not legit!

 

[Pulpe]

Yea, five percent is not legit!

I personnaly use my MacBook one hour every day evening (I have a Surface product for my work).

Within one week, I lost more than 40% battery charge while my machine is completely shutdown. It is near the half of my total consumption for this week.

I cannot be satisfied with this behaviour.

 

[JohnnyGo]

Hi ,

Please, can you test the battery discharge when your Mac is completely shutdown? Do you have a touch bar model?

I will do that next. Just got a replacement battery and my sleep/standby issues continue.

I’m struggling to get standby/sleep at 2% for a 10-12h period which would be equivalent to Apple’s claim of a 30 day standby.

Shutdown for me should use less than 1% per day and should be non-linear, ie 8-10 days = not much more than 2-3%

 

[Pulpe]

I will do that next. Just got a replacement battery and my sleep/standby issues continue.

I’m struggling to get standby/sleep at 2% for a 10-12h period which would be equivalent to Apple’s claim of a 30 day standby.

Shutdown for me should use less than 1% per day and should be non-linear, ie 8-10 days = not much more than 2-3%

You can obtain low power consumption in sleep mode (for me 6%-7% per 24 hours) by following these configration steps:

Disable :
- Wake for Wi-Fi network access
- Power Nap
- iCloud Drive
- Find My Mac
- Most important: TCPKeepAlive (use terminal command 'sudo pmset -b tcpkeepalive 0')

Enable :
- Turn on Do Not Disturb when the display is sleeping

It's not a full solution because you lose some Sierra features...

 

[Pulpe]

I've just opened a new ticket with Apple Care.

I spoke to a responsible who escalated the problem to engineering.

I'll update this thread everytime I'll have news to share.

 

[MaximK]

I've just opened a new ticket with Apple Care.

I spoke to a responsible who escalated the problem to engineering.

I'll update this thread everytime I'll have news to share.

Thanks for keeping us up to date