MacBook Pro/Air refresh schedule - Haswell release timeline

[skaertus]

You're right,there's misconception but sometimes there is also some kind of presumption people are always thinking like that.
Mine is a real need,while i understand all the "limits",thats why i'm looking for the BROADWELL which is 14nm and better in terms of watt,tdp,energy saver...etc etc ,also this is why i have a mid 2012 MacBook Pro Classic with Quad inside and another one which sits on my desk within my late 2012 27 iMAC...basically for this year i'm fitted... .
My needin is because we work with very sick and violent people ,we work with elderlies with Alzheimer,with psychiatric ones,we work and this the worst case with people with law problems...so we need to have the best in the tiny package to document fast our sessions of music therapy...we use a lot the Cloud services,just in case something goes broken or stolen we have all our datas saved....we have a lot of strategies to make it...basically now i work with my Ipad mini..its not the powerful ipad but it fits well hidden in my jacket (this is in the "risky" sessions ).
So its just not cores related..but i have to tell that i really like the idea of a Quad Core Broadwell Air in the 2014.
Till there i will continue to use my Big QUADS as usual.

Oh, I understand.

I would also like to have a powerful quad-core processor with a high clock rate running inside a MacBook Air or another thin-and-light laptop. However, it is not possible given today's technology. There is not so much information available about Broadwell, but it will be the die shrink of Haswell, and not a brand-new architecture. The 14nm process will certainly allow for more power-efficient processors, but at this point I am skeptical that it will allow quad-core 15-17W processors (the ones inside MacBook Air). I think it would be more likely to happen with Skylane in 2015, which is a new architecture made in the 14nm process.

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Perhaps I am a little late, but here's my contribution anyway.

I've been reading all of these threads looking for two things:

1. Will the next chip refresh bring a significant performance boost? Sounds like, 'No'.

No. The focus of Haswell will be energy efficiency, and not performance. CPU performance will be about 5% to 15% higher than Ivy Bridge. Here are some benchmarks of Haswell compared to Ivy Bridge: http://www.tweaktown.com/news/28234...g-haswell-cpu-released-by-oclab-ru/index.html

The GPU will be a lot faster, though. But there will be different kinds of GPUs, and the top-end ones will only be released in late 2013. Look here: http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2013/2013012702_Haswell_GT3_graphics_to_launch_in_Q3_2013.html

2. How much longer will the non-retina MBP be around?

I have the money to buy now, but not the need. I do not, however, intend to miss purchasing a non-retina MBP before they are phased out.

Is there a significant reason to wait for a possible refresh, or should I just buy now?

-Doc

Nobody knows for sure. I think, but it's just a guess, that Apple will drop them in 2013, in the next refresh of the retina models. But it may well get another update before it is phased out. In any case, should Apple choose to discontinue it in 2013, the retina models may have a (slight) price drop.

 

[Doc. Caliban]

That's what I figured. As someone who spent more money on his PC's video cards (3-way SLI) than most people spend on a whole computer, I will definitely not be doing anything GPU-intensive on the laptop.

If no major CPU performance gains are likely before Apple axes the model, then I will probably just go ahead and get the base model and hit Amazon for reasonably priced RAM and storage.

EDIT: And you're not too late! Thank you for your contribution!

-Doc

 

[skaertus]

That's what I figured. As someone who spent more money on his PC's video cards (3-way SLI) than most people spend on a whole computer, I will definitely not be doing anything GPU-intensive on the laptop.

If no major CPU performance gains are likely before Apple axes the model, then I will probably just go ahead and get the base model and hit Amazon for reasonably priced RAM and storage.

EDIT: And you're not too late! Thank you for your contribution!

-Doc

I guess that's pretty much it.

Is there any reason why you want the non-retina MacBook Pro specifically?

 

[Doc. Caliban]

I guess that's pretty much it.

Is there any reason why you want the non-retina MacBook Pro specifically?

A few reasons, yeah.

Firstly, Apple's upgrade prices really irritate me. I'm already paying a premium for the laptop itself, so it makes me angry to think of having to pay another $100 for 4GB of RAM (in the case of the 4GB to 8GB upgrade) when I can buy 16GB for around the same money elsewhere. Hard drives / SSDs are the same story. That's the main reason. After decades of building and upgrading machines, I'm not willing to buy into a "Buy all of the RAM that you think you may need down the road now, and at our prices, or forever be stuck without it" when CPUs are not going to be a performance bottleneck for the OS or applications for many years, and I can upgrade the RAM and storage for peanuts when I finally need to.

Secondly, and not to open a can of worms or repeat what has no doubt been hashed over in many other threads, I think the retina display on a laptop if a waste. Resolution really only matters to the point that you can fit as much on the screen as possible and not need reading glasses to see the text. It looks great on the iPad because the alternative is a very low res screen. I've seen the side by side comparison at the store, which is of course only done with the default, low resolution non retina MBP display at that, and I can barely tell a difference, and certainly not one that constitutes the price. (And before I get poked at by the photographers, I have thousands of RAW files that I've shot with a $3.5k SLR setup, and the last place I'm going to do any real work on my photos is on a laptop display anyway.)

Another way to think of the retina benefit is this: Read any professional reports on HDTV's that compare 720p and 1080p TVs. Just about all of them agree that watching the same source material on both displays looks the same until you get up to a 50" screen.

If the resolution is good enough to make the text look sharp enough and get a fair amount of desktop real estate without making the fonts ridiculously small, then that is, IMO, the point of rapidly diminishing returns on a computer display ... most especially one that is only 15". (I had a 30" 2560x1600 display for a few years, and that screen size / resolution combination is great. Higher res would make things too small.

Wow, that was long winded! In short, I would not benefit from the display, even as a photographer, and I refuse to pay top dollar for one of the least repairable or upgradable laptops on the market while there is still an option.

-Doc

 

[skaertus]

A few reasons, yeah.

I understand you, even though I don't agree with you entirely.

Firstly, Apple's upgrade prices really irritate me. I'm already paying a premium for the laptop itself, so it makes me angry to think of having to pay another $100 for 4GB of RAM (in the case of the 4GB to 8GB upgrade) when I can buy 16GB for around the same money elsewhere. Hard drives / SSDs are the same story. That's the main reason. After decades of building and upgrading machines, I'm not willing to buy into a "Buy all of the RAM that you think you may need down the road now, and at our prices, or forever be stuck without it" when CPUs are not going to be a performance bottleneck for the OS or applications for many years, and I can upgrade the RAM and storage for peanuts when I finally need to.

That's definitely irritating.

Secondly, and not to open a can of worms or repeat what has no doubt been hashed over in many other threads, I think the retina display on a laptop if a waste. Resolution really only matters to the point that you can fit as much on the screen as possible and not need reading glasses to see the text. It looks great on the iPad because the alternative is a very low res screen. I've seen the side by side comparison at the store, which is of course only done with the default, low resolution non retina MBP display at that, and I can barely tell a difference, and certainly not one that constitutes the price. (And before I get poked at by the photographers, I have thousands of RAW files that I've shot with a $3.5k SLR setup, and the last place I'm going to do any real work on my photos is on a laptop display anyway.)

Another way to think of the retina benefit is this: Read any professional reports on HDTV's that compare 720p and 1080p TVs. Just about all of them agree that watching the same source material on both displays looks the same until you get up to a 50" screen.

If the resolution is good enough to make the text look sharp enough and get a fair amount of desktop real estate without making the fonts ridiculously small, then that is, IMO, the point of rapidly diminishing returns on a computer display ... most especially one that is only 15". (I had a 30" 2560x1600 display for a few years, and that screen size / resolution combination is great. Higher res would make things too small.

Well, that's a matter of opinion. I would benefit from a retina display to see text really sharp even at small sizes. But each to its own.

Wow, that was long winded! In short, I would not benefit from the display, even as a photographer, and I refuse to pay top dollar for one of the least repairable or upgradable laptops on the market while there is still an option.

-Doc

You have a point. But have in mind that the non-retina MacBook Pro will be discontinued sooner or later, and then you'll have to settle with a non-upgradeable model...

 

[dusk007]

You have a point. But have in mind that the non-retina MacBook Pro will be discontinued sooner or later, and then you'll have to settle with a non-upgradeable model...

He could also buy a Windows/Linux notebook.
In general I think the need for RAM upgrades is shrinking. Today most people have already more RAM than they need. Browsers suck huge amounts but they don't perform so much worse if they have to swap a little or unload a background tab.
Many applications have pretty much remained at the same RAM use for years now with only small changes. Buying a 16GB notebook means that you probably don't need an upgrade. The times where everything was constantly RAM starved are past since 4GB default RAM.

HDD and SSD upgrades are a different issue. Any 14" or bigger notebook should hold a 2.5" bay + a blade SSD IMHO. Afaik one can still upgrade the SSD in the rMBP.

 

[Doc. Caliban]

He could also buy a Windows/Linux notebook.
In general I think the need for RAM upgrades is shrinking. Today most people have already more RAM than they need. Browsers suck huge amounts but they don't perform so much worse if they have to swap a little or unload a background tab.
Many applications have pretty much remained at the same RAM use for years now with only small changes. Buying a 16GB notebook means that you probably don't need an upgrade. The times where everything was constantly RAM starved are past since 4GB default RAM.

HDD and SSD upgrades are a different issue. Any 14" or bigger notebook should hold a 2.5" bay + a blade SSD IMHO. Afaik one can still upgrade the SSD in the rMBP.

This is all very true, and why I think that buying the last Apple laptop on the market that is easily upgraded is my best bet. A max of 16GB of RAM is going to be enough for a long, long, long time. (and purchasing it at normal retail prices makes it worth doing) As for other OS's, that's how I got to where I am now! DOS 4 through Windows For Workgroups 3.11 were my first few computer years, then I worked 'there' between WFW and XP SP1, switched to Linux when Vista came out, and then switched to Mac when Leopard was just coming out. I'm not going back!

-Doc

 

[Doc. Caliban]

Not sure if today's change means that the cMBP is on it's way out sooner or later.

What I do know is that you can now opt for the faster CPU and extra VRAM without also having to eat Apple's price for another 4GB of RAM and 250GB of hard drive space. So that is certainly a plus.

The question still remains: Will they get a Haswell bump before they get axed altogether?

I could order one right now, but I don't need it.

-Doc

 

[skaertus]

Not sure if today's change means that the cMBP is on it's way out sooner or later.

It probably is.

What I do know is that you can now opt for the faster CPU and extra VRAM without also having to eat Apple's price for another 4GB of RAM and 250GB of hard drive space. So that is certainly a plus.

The question still remains: Will they get a Haswell bump before they get axed altogether?

I could order one right now, but I don't need it.

-Doc

I guess it won't. Note that the cMBP didn't get the spec bump.

 

[Doc. Caliban]

Yes, that too; no bump. I think I'll order it tonight. I would regret missing the opportunity more than I would regret missing an update.

I am glad that I waited the little while I did. Faster CPU and more VRAM without having to be gouged on extra RAM and drive space. That's ultimately pretty nice.

-Doc

 

[IllmasterMath]

Yes, that too; no bump. I think I'll order it tonight. I would regret missing the opportunity more than I would regret missing an update.

I am glad that I waited the little while I did. Faster CPU and more VRAM without having to be gouged on extra RAM and drive space. That's ultimately pretty nice.

-Doc

If they did discontinue, why wouldn't you buy it from Apple's refurbished store or Amazon?

 

[Doc. Caliban]

If they did discontinue, why wouldn't you buy it from Apple's refurbished store or Amazon?

A fair question. I have a friend who is being kind enough to purchase a new one for me at a discount, so I am going that route.

-Doc

 

[el-John-o]

If they did discontinue, why wouldn't you buy it from Apple's refurbished store or Amazon?

+1

Plus, even if they are 'discontinued', they may not stop building them right away. Similar to the white MacBook or a handful of PowerPC products that were 'discontinued' and not updated, but were still available for sale for a short time afterwards. The white MacBook was only available to education customers, but there were plenty left in stock at various resellers.

In my opinion, if there are enough sales for the shelves to be empty and few left come the summer refresh, then they'll get refreshed as well. Apple still sells the iPhone 4 despite the 4S and 5 being out. Cuz it sells like crazy. Apple is still a company, and if it's selling, they'll keep making it, at least for a little while. The 13" non-Retina is still their best selling Mac. If they have in fact dipped severely in sales, or at least enough for Apple to justify cutting them from the line and moving to all-retina, then there will be some on the shelves somewhere you can nab.

The third scenario, is a shift to all retina that accompanies a steep price drop. Kill two birds with one stone; you move the line forward without losing any sales (if the price point drops, most otherwise non-retina buyers will move to retina). And that's kind of a win-win, although the ability to purchase your own HDD/SDD is a big big selling point for the non-retina for many of us..

 

[Doc. Caliban]

All excellent information.

For me, however, I will get the best possible price by going through my friend, and if they are suddenly removed from the online store, he will not have access to them anymore either.

I would feel much less regretful for missing a modest update than I would missing the opportunity altogether, which is exactly what would happen for me if they suddenly get removed from the store. (I understand that the GPU is much better, but I have a PC for gaming, which is the only GPU intensive work I ever do.)

-Doc

EDIT: Something just occurred to me: If you look at it from a marketing standpoint, they already have a huge page dedicated entirely to the retina model with just a tiny little thumbnail at the very bottom for the non-retina. They also show the drab, boring desktop image for the non retinas, while the more expensive retinas have bright, colorful photographs being displayed. Not very subtle, but I'm sure it works on the masses.

The same way that having the non retina look like it has low specs compared to the retina models by removing the higher-speced model from the lineup. Most users who even bother looking at the non retina as a cheaper alternative would not go so far as to click the "purchase" button and find that you can crank the specs right up. I think that's what they've done ... lowered the profile and appeal of the non retina for the vast majority of customers who will be shopping the online store for a MBP.

And why would they do that? Weaning.

 

[baseten]

I'm in the same position. I've got a four year old 15" MBP and I'm looking for an upgrade, I still want a 15" model but I don't really want retina. I want to be able to upgrade the components and I'm really not fussed about the screen. In fact the screen puts me off because of the reports of poor performance as even the discrete GPU can't quite cope with the sheer number of pixels. I don't want to spend so much for a feature I don't need which reduces the performance of the laptop as a whole.

The recent price drop is appealing, but this hasn't applied to the old model and they've even removed the higher specced version of it. What's really annoying is to spec up the low model to 2.7Ghz CPU, a 256GB SSD and 16GB RAM costs more than the high spec retina - I can mitigate this by upgrading at Crucial, but this is stupid! I really can't see them doing another update on this model now...

The thing I'm wondering is whether to go ahead and get the old model while I can, with the risk that future 'retina-ready' applications may cause me issues, or wait for the next update. It sounds like the next update probably won't effect the 15" in a big way. If Apple don't get rid of a discrete GPU entirely (ridiculous, but I wouldn't put it past them as I don't think they'll be happy until their laptops are less than 1mm thick) then it's probably gonna be similar to what's in there now with all related performance problems. I'd be interested to hear what other people think about this and if anyone with a rMBP has any views performance, particularly related to this article:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6023/the-nextgen-macbook-pro-with-retina-display-review/8

Apple's recent behaviour with hardware (and software for that matter, look at Shake and Final Cut Pro) is really starting to irritate me, they seem to be focussing much more on general consumers than pro users. I understand the business sense but surely it's possible to appeal to the general public without alienating what was once their core market? If I had any other real choice it'd probably be enough to stop me buying their products.

 

[ncrypt]

Going back to the question of Haswell's release, do you think that the minor spec bump this month is an indication of Apple keeping the rMBPs up to date whilst Haswell is delayed even further?

I'm just thinking that had it been on schedule for June/July, they wouldn't have needed to do this minor update.. pretty sure no one expected it right now either..

 

[skaertus]

Going back to the question of Haswell's release, do you think that the minor spec bump this month is an indication of Apple keeping the rMBPs up to date whilst Haswell is delayed even further?

I'm just thinking that had it been on schedule for June/July, they wouldn't have needed to do this minor update.. pretty sure no one expected it right now either..

I don't know about that. Apple just updated the retina MacBook Pro ahead of its usual release dates. Note that these were slight increases in speed, and not real updates. This may have to do with the declining sales of Macs during the last quarter... perhaps Apple wanted to boost the sales of these models.

As for Haswell, it seems to be on track for a June release. Acer has already showcased laptops supposedly featuring Haswell processor, which is scheduled to be released in Spring. Apple may want to refresh its Mac line with Haswell processors in the middle of the year or a little bit later.

 

[dblissmn]

I think the Retina screen is a godsend, frankly. What you've got is a truly scalable UI, with all that implies for ergonomics, different applications and differing levels of eyesight. 1920x1200 for spreadsheet or photo editing on the road. 1680x1050 that is like the current hi-res models, only sharper. 1440x900, to match the character x-height of a 27 inch QHD panel or 30 inch WQXGA panel. 1280x800 to match the character x-height of a 24-inch WUXGA panel, a 23 inch HD panel, or an older 17-inch 1280x1024 panel. And so on. In other words, with almost any possible dual monitor set-up, you can get the same size text on both displays, with the laptop rendering it perfectly sharply every time. And it does all this with a glossy panel that keeps all the glossy advantages while getting rid of all the disadvantages. Retina should replace every current glossy panel offering on the Mac laptop line, as far as I am concerned.

It's the part of the Retina laptop that's on the other side of the hinge that I have problems with. The multi-pack glued-in battery. The non-standard SSD. The soldered RAM. Etcetera. And I would hope that as chipsets become more power efficient, they can move to more standardized, less complicated and cheaper-to-replace components within the current case dimensions as the battery and logic board inevitably shrink. I'd hope that in a year or two we'll see mSATA, SO-DIMM, and a much less complicated battery that does not need to be glued in.

 

[skaertus]

EDIT: Something just occurred to me: If you look at it from a marketing standpoint, they already have a huge page dedicated entirely to the retina model with just a tiny little thumbnail at the very bottom for the non-retina. They also show the drab, boring desktop image for the non retinas, while the more expensive retinas have bright, colorful photographs being displayed. Not very subtle, but I'm sure it works on the masses.

The same way that having the non retina look like it has low specs compared to the retina models by removing the higher-speced model from the lineup. Most users who even bother looking at the non retina as a cheaper alternative would not go so far as to click the "purchase" button and find that you can crank the specs right up. I think that's what they've done ... lowered the profile and appeal of the non retina for the vast majority of customers who will be shopping the online store for a MBP.

And why would they do that? Weaning.

Sounds right.

But you should consider that the retina MacBook Pro is still much more expensive than the non-retina models. The 13-inch non-retina MacBook Pro is still the best-selling Apple computer, despite the price drop of the retina 13-inch model, if Amazon.com rankings is to be believed.

In addition, the 15-inch retina MacBook Pro is still very expensive, at US$ 2,199. It's US$ 400 more expensive than the sole standard non-retina model left, and that alone would buy a Chromebook. It may be worth the price, but that's a different story, as most people would just pay the admission price to get into the Mac world.

 

[onthecouchagain]

Will the late-2013 Haswell rMBP 13" laptops get a dedicated graphics card? Any possibility?

I think that's the more interesting question...

 

[skaertus]

Will the late-2013 Haswell rMBP 13" laptops get a dedicated graphics card? Any possibility?

I think that's the more interesting question...

Most likely: NO.

Some people who are always expecting Apple to upscale its laptops, especially the video cards. But Apple has never done that: it just updates the video cards generation after generation.

I don't know where you get this idea, but the probability is low. Note that Haswell will have a much more powerful integrated video card than Ivy Bridge (Intel is comparing the top-range Haswell integrated GPU with NVIDIA GT 650M, which is the one that equips the 15-inch retina model). It makes a lot of sense for Apple to benefit from this more powerful integrated video card than switching to a power-hungry dedicated video card. A dedicated video card would consume precious battery and would heat the slim retina 13-inch MacBook Pro. In addition, a dedicated video card would add cost to the laptop, and Apple often uses similar-priced components. If margins get any higher, I think it is more likely for Apple to drop the prices even further or to increase the storage capacity of the SSD drives than to add a dedicated video card.

I may be wrong, and Apple may put a dedicated video card in the 13-inch retina MacBook Pro in the next generation. But, due to the reasons I exposed, I think it is very unlikely to happen. If you are expecting it, I guess you will be really disappointed.

 

[dblissmn]

Going back to the question of Haswell's release, do you think that the minor spec bump this month is an indication of Apple keeping the rMBPs up to date whilst Haswell is delayed even further?

I'm just thinking that had it been on schedule for June/July, they wouldn't have needed to do this minor update.. pretty sure no one expected it right now either..

Intel lately has been slightly boosting its clock speeds in the first few months of a production run. That's one part of the story. The other part is that not even Apple could go on charging what they were charging for SSDs when, at least for 256GB or 512GB SSDs, you could get the entire part -- OWC Aura or the OEM Apple part itself -- for not much more than the upgrade fee. Hence the $100 to $200 price drop depending on configuration. I don't think it has any bearing on the Haswell release date at all.

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Most likely: NO.

Some people who are always expecting Apple to upscale its laptops, especially the video cards. But Apple has never done that: it just updates the video cards generation after generation.

I don't know where you get this idea, but the probability is low. Note that Haswell will have a much more powerful integrated video card than Ivy Bridge (Intel is comparing the top-range Haswell integrated GPU with NVIDIA GT 650M, which is the one that equips the 15-inch retina model). It makes a lot of sense for Apple to benefit from this more powerful integrated video card than switching to a power-hungry dedicated video card. A dedicated video card would consume precious battery and would heat the slim retina 13-inch MacBook Pro. In addition, a dedicated video card would add cost to the laptop, and Apple often uses similar-priced components. If margins get any higher, I think it is more likely for Apple to drop the prices even further or to increase the storage capacity of the SSD drives than to add a dedicated video card.

I may be wrong, and Apple may put a dedicated video card in the 13-inch retina MacBook Pro in the next generation. But, due to the reasons I exposed, I think it is very unlikely to happen. If you are expecting it, I guess you will be really disappointed.

Why would they? Graphics is the one place where Haswell will offer a huge improvement. It gets to the point where very few potential customers would need discrete graphics on a 13. And even to the point where a significant number of 15 inch customers would opt for integrated.

 

[skaertus]

Why would they? Graphics is the one place where Haswell will offer a huge improvement. It gets to the point where very few potential customers would need discrete graphics on a 13. And even to the point where a significant number of 15 inch customers would opt for integrated.

You are right. In fact, Haswell will (supposedly) offer huge improvements in two places: integrated graphics and battery life. A dedicated video card would not benefit from the integrated graphics and would reduce the increased battery life. If Apple hasn't put a dedicated video card in Ivy Bridge laptops, it won't do that with Haswell ones either.

 

[baseten]

What I'm taking from this is that a 2013 15" rMBP is unlikely to be a massive improvement over the current versions. (Say 10% for Haswell) yes there will be battery life improvements, this doesn't bother me a great deal. It's been suggested that there won't be an improvement on the NVidia discrete GPU by June/July, which seems a key factor. Anyone know anything about NVidia's release schedule (assuming there isn't a competing Radeon at that point)?

 

[neteng101]

Haswell's GPU improvements is pretty significant for the 13" rMBP, which is the main reason I'd wait. I don't expect the 15" side will see huge improvements. Maxwell (next Nvidia architectural change) is due in 2014 so we won't see that much on the dGPU side.