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Not a big deal -- this wasn't an announced feature, it's not like we are dealing with two identical dedicated cards either that are designed for SLI -- nor did Apple announce this as a feature, but that it was designed to cut energy use down and possibly save battery life versus using the ultra powerful 9600 circuitry.
 
Just a slight note. SLI has been around since PCIe took off. Technically that is just a rebirth of 3dfx SLI (seen in the Voodoo 2 in 1998). So it really isn't all that new. Hybrid SLI has always been the next logical step it was just never really exploited till now. Notice that something like Hybrid SLI takes place when you have two different speed GPU's in SLI mode, the faster GPU slows down to the speed of the slower GPU.

I shouldn't have been general there. What I meant was Hybrid SLI (you are correct) implementation in notebooks is somewhat new. Not many support it yet. Anyway thank you for clarifying my statement more.
 
I'm confused.

The new machines have a "low" and a "high" graphics GPU for different tasks. Switching between them requires you to log out of OS X.

So how do you play games on these? If I have a MacBook Pro and spend all day doing Excel spreadsheets then want to play say World of Warcraft, the computer will make me log out first so it can switch from the low to the high GPU?

That can't be right. Without on-the-fly switching these machines are severely crippled.
 
I'm confused.

The new machines have a "low" and a "high" graphics GPU for different tasks. Switching between them requires you to log out of OS X.

So how do you play games on these? If I have a MacBook Pro and spend all day doing Excel spreadsheets then want to play say World of Warcraft, the computer will make me log out first so it can switch from the low to the high GPU?

That can't be right. Without on-the-fly switching these machines are severely crippled.

Simple answer Yes and this really is not a big deal if your a game player
 
Simple answer Yes and this really is not a big deal if your a game player

No, not a big deal, but slightly bizzare for this day and age! If I was shopping for a new laptop (and wasn't already an Apple fan, which I am!) and that was explained to me by an Apple store salesperson I would be a] amused and b] walk straight out.

Does the machine prompt you to log out, or will it attempt to run a graphics-intensive task using the "low" GPU?

Which means, if you have the "high" GPU running and don't log out, presumably the machine will just continue to run with the high GPU even though you don't need it, and will only switch back if you log out/restart/shut down/whatever?
 
Sli != Sli

Wrong wrong wrong.

Voodoo SLI = Scan Line Interleave - this allowed the Voodoo to render up to 1024x768 on a hardware platform that could only do 800x600, and gained a bit of performance to boot. Yes, with 3Dfx, timing was painfully critical. Voodoo's SLI ran each card at 1024x384 and performed hardware scan-line interleaving.

nVidia SLI = Scalable Link Interface - this offers two rendering and one anti-aliasing method for splitting the work between the video cards; Split Frame Rendering, Alternate Frame Rendering and SLI Antialiasing. Timing is not critical, but if the GPU's aren't matched well, performance will worsen.

Hybrid SLI is designed specifically to work with unmatched GPU's. It is broken into two different modes: Hybrid Power - this will switch between integrated and discrete GPUs on the fly as demand changes, and GeForce Boost - this will use BOTH GPUs to improve the 3D performance of games at the sacrifice of battery life.

Why does nVidia's site say only the 9100, 9300 and 9500 support GeForce Boost? All GeForce 8-series GPU's and higher technically support all available forms of SLI, since they're all software schemes. Therefore, pairing a 9800 with a 9100 would not improve frame rate, so nVidia limits this mode to chips they know would improve frame rates.

However, the 9400M is brand new, and I suspect that nVidia has yet to update all their webpages. It is not a slightly faster bump of the 9100M, and should be able to run well along-side the 9600M. On both the pages specifically on the 9400M and 9600M, both clearly indicate that they are Hybrid SLI enabled (and in detail, both say they are Hybrid Power and GeForce Boost enabled).

So, this is only up to Apple to include support for this at the kernel level.

Great post amongst the madness. Implementing Hybrid SLI at this point with Snow Leopard around the corner would not have been wise. It would be a huge undertaking. Consider the syncronization nightmare that is involved between a discrete GPU with its own memory and that of an onboard GPU, which DEPENDS on main memory. If main memory bottlenecks during intensive processing and slows down the 9400, the frames processed by the 9600 would have to wait or the 9600 would have to go back and fill in what the 9400 couldn't process in time. SLI with 2 identical cards with their own memory allows for much easier syncing...None of these issues have to thought of. I think people are really underestimating the work that is needed to do Hybrid SLI. Frankly it's a feat the technology exists period. If you really think about, the overhead involved in syncing one card with another that's 2.5x faster may not give you a boost worth the development at the 9600m level. Even IF the boost could warrant the development (which costs $$$), could you blame Apple for not putting the time into an OS that is going to be replaced next summer? Can you imagine the possible bugs that could occur that they would have to field and fix? I wish Hybrid worked too, but cut Apple a little slack here.
 
1. It's a software limitation. Even XP does not support Hybrid SLI - it's currently a Vista only thing. Boot Camp locks the MBP into using the 9600M GT through the EFI.

2. nVidia usually makes the manufacturer responsible for notebook drivers. This might be a different case, but it's probably up to Apple to get this working completely. I would say step 1 would be to get it working in OS-X, and step 2 would be worrying about an updated working Boot Camp driver.

3. The Santa Rosa chipset supports 8GB of RAM. Current MB/MBP are limited to about 6GB due to Apple's poorly written drivers that allocate fixed memory locations up there (e.g. Jmicron). Mac Pro's avoid this by not using the hardware that can cause these problems. What 64-bit on OS-X allows is a) individual applications can address more than 4GB of virtual memory and b) the CPU no longer has to perform a TLB (cache) flush each time a kernel call is made or a process is switched out. Unlike Windows, it will not allow more RAM to be addressable by the Kernel as OS-X can already run with up to 32GB.

Hello,

Regarding the Hybrid SLi limitation of the new MacBook Pro, that's an Hardware or a software limitation?

In case of software,is nvidia planning the release of a bootcamp Driver for windows Vista 32/64 bits?

And on last question.
Is the Chipset and Mobo, limited to 32Bits, then limiting the amount of RAM? Will 64bits OS take full advantage of this new Nvidia 9400 (Graphics / Chipset) ?
 
Wrong wrong wrong.

Voodoo SLI = Scan Line Interleave - this allowed the Voodoo to render up to 1024x768 on a hardware platform that could only do 800x600, and gained a bit of performance to boot. Yes, with 3Dfx, timing was painfully critical. Voodoo's SLI ran each card at 1024x384 and performed hardware scan-line interleaving.

nVidia SLI = Scalable Link Interface - this offers two rendering and one anti-aliasing method for splitting the work between the video cards; Split Frame Rendering, Alternate Frame Rendering and SLI Antialiasing. Timing is not critical, but if the GPU's aren't matched well, performance will worsen.

While you are correct, just note that 3dfx SLI is still the precursor to nvidia SLI. True scan line interleave sucks in modern rendering schemes. AFR is the better of the three types as it allows the GPU to use it's full power for a frame. SFR was promising, but really fell flat in the end. Really nvidia should just abandon it already (imho).
 
I'm confused.

The new machines have a "low" and a "high" graphics GPU for different tasks. Switching between them requires you to log out of OS X.

So how do you play games on these? If I have a MacBook Pro and spend all day doing Excel spreadsheets then want to play say World of Warcraft, the computer will make me log out first so it can switch from the low to the high GPU?

That can't be right. Without on-the-fly switching these machines are severely crippled.

Uh, if you spend 'all day' working on the thing, then it's probably plugged in, so there would be no need to be using the weaker GPU in the first place. How could you posssibly consider the system 'crippled'? If saving power's not your thing, leave it in turbo mode, it's really just an extra hour...
 
The Response of Nvidia regarding the SLi on MAC OSx and Windows Vista

Today morning I've send the fallowing questions to nvidia knowledge data base:

Regarding the Hybrid SLi limitation of the new MacBook Pro, that's an Hardware or a software limitation?

In case of software,is nvidia planning the release of a bootcamp Driver for windows Vista 32/64 bits?

And on last question.
Is the Chipset and Mobo, limited to 32Bits, then limiting the amount of RAM? Will 64bits OS take full advantage of this new Nvidia 9400 (Graphics / Chipset) ?
Thanks for you time


Nvidia Response:

Hello Jorge,

Thank you for contacting NVIDIA Customer Care.

This is Farzana and I will be assisting you with the query you have.

I understand from your email that you would like to know if the Hybrid SLI limitation on the new MacBook Pro is hardware or software limitation. Also, you would like to know if the GeForce 9400 Chipset is limited to Windows 32 Bit OS or if the GeForce 9400 Chipset can take full advantage of the Windows 64 bit OS.

Please be informed the new Macbook Pro’s feature both motherboard GPUs (GeForce 9400M) and a discrete GPUs (GeForce 9600M GT). Apple has chosen to design their own hybrid graphics technology. As a result, this feature will only work under Mac OS and not under Windows OS and this is Hardware Limitation. Motherboard chipsets have to meet certain requirements to support this feature.

Regarding the support for Windows Vista 64-bit OS, yes the new Macbook Pro supports the Windows Vista 64 bit OS. Apple supports Windows Vista x64 only on their Pro hardware. Apple has started supporting Windows Vista x64 with the introduction of the Mac Pro 3,1.

Please feel free to contact us for any further clarifications.

Best regards,
Farzana,
NVIDIA Customer Care
 
Today morning I've send the fallowing questions to nvidia knowledge data base:

Regarding the Hybrid SLi limitation of the new MacBook Pro, that's an Hardware or a software limitation?

In case of software,is nvidia planning the release of a bootcamp Driver for windows Vista 32/64 bits?

And on last question.
Is the Chipset and Mobo, limited to 32Bits, then limiting the amount of RAM? Will 64bits OS take full advantage of this new Nvidia 9400 (Graphics / Chipset) ?
Thanks for you time


Nvidia Response:

Hello Jorge,

Thank you for contacting NVIDIA Customer Care.

This is Farzana and I will be assisting you with the query you have.

I understand from your email that you would like to know if the Hybrid SLI limitation on the new MacBook Pro is hardware or software limitation. Also, you would like to know if the GeForce 9400 Chipset is limited to Windows 32 Bit OS or if the GeForce 9400 Chipset can take full advantage of the Windows 64 bit OS.

Please be informed the new Macbook Pro’s feature both motherboard GPUs (GeForce 9400M) and a discrete GPUs (GeForce 9600M GT). Apple has chosen to design their own hybrid graphics technology. As a result, this feature will only work under Mac OS and not under Windows OS and this is Hardware Limitation. Motherboard chipsets have to meet certain requirements to support this feature.

Regarding the support for Windows Vista 64-bit OS, yes the new Macbook Pro supports the Windows Vista 64 bit OS. Apple supports Windows Vista x64 only on their Pro hardware. Apple has started supporting Windows Vista x64 with the introduction of the Mac Pro 3,1.

Please feel free to contact us for any further clarifications.

Best regards,
Farzana,
NVIDIA Customer Care

Farzana stealth-fully avoided mentioning if "Hybrid SLI" was supported
 
Wrong wrong wrong ...
nVidia SLI = Scalable Link Interface - this offers two rendering and one anti-aliasing method for splitting the work between the video cards; Split Frame Rendering, Alternate Frame Rendering and SLI Antialiasing. Timing is not critical, but if the GPU's aren't matched well, performance will worsen.

Whether you call it by it's nVidia brand name or by the traditional name, it does the same thing. The image is broken into segments and rendered by the different GPUs. You can do it by line, you can do it by full frame, or any variation thereon. Either way, as you said, if the GPUs aren't matched, you lose performance or efficiency.
 
Aw bugger, I wowwed when I first head about the dual GPU thingy. Now it's not so good. Hope it gets resolved as it would seriously bump up the capabilities of the MBP.
Anyone who simply watched Tueday's Laptop announcements would already know this.

If you want to conserve battery power, use the smaller chip. If you want maximum power, you use the bigger one, but at the cost of about an hour of battery power (according to Steve on Tuesday's event.)
 
The reason you have to logout to switch between the graphic cards is that to release any processes which require a significant amount of graphics power. When switching between the graphics cards, the OS offloads the graphics process to the CPU while the graphic card is being switched. Apple will surely find a software patch so that we could switch between the two cards on-the-fly, or rather, not requiring logging off.
 
I'm confused.

The new machines have a "low" and a "high" graphics GPU for different tasks. Switching between them requires you to log out of OS X.

So how do you play games on these? If I have a MacBook Pro and spend all day doing Excel spreadsheets then want to play say World of Warcraft, the computer will make me log out first so it can switch from the low to the high GPU?

That can't be right. Without on-the-fly switching these machines are severely crippled.

Oh yes, the ability to choose between high performance and low power really cripples the machine. So you would be happier if the discrete graphics card couldn't be used (power savings all the time, not severely crippled) or if the integrated card couldn't be used (high performance all the time, not severely crippled)?
 
Whether you call it by it's nVidia brand name or by the traditional name, it does the same thing. The image is broken into segments and rendered by the different GPUs. You can do it by line, you can do it by full frame, or any variation thereon. Either way, as you said, if the GPUs aren't matched, you lose performance or efficiency.

It is actually very, very hard to make this efficient. First, the CPU has to send graphics commands to both GPUs. That takes twice as long. The CPU has to do things like compiling pixel shaders and fragment shaders. That takes more time. Textures need to be downloaded to both GPUs. Then you have to distribute the work very carefully, like one third to the slower GPU and two thirds to the faster one.

But if by bad luck the third given to the slower GPU is unusually hard to render, you have to wait until it is finished - might take longer than rendering on the fast GPU alone in the first place. So in the worst case, using both GPUs will only be slightly faster than using the slower one. You really don't want to do rendering on two GPUs at different speeds.

It might be useful for a dual-monitor system to have the slower GPU run one monitor and the faster GPU the other one; for example if you display games on one monitor only.
 
Good grief....

What has Apple done to their laptops?? This is painful. :(

What are you talking about? I don't see anything painful or anything wrong with the way this is set to work.

If you want to save battery power while on the road, etc. just log off and set the power saving option. If you are going to be playing games or are not worried about battery time log off and set performance mode.

Logging on and off takes all of 2 or 3 seconds, what's the big deal?

My laptop will be in performance mode all of the time anyway so it makes no difference to me.
 
It's official

nVidia officially announced that the MacBooks support 8GB of RAM as well as the use of both GPUs at the same time - either using dynamic switching for power conservation, or literally at the same time to boost rendering performance. Rendering performance should improve by about 50% with both GPUs running at the same time, at the extreme expense of battery life.

Nvidia dropped by today to demo some of the awesome things that the GeForce 9400M in the new MacBooks can do that Intel's integrated graphics just can't touch, and to discuss a few technical points. Besides confirming that you'll see it in other notebooks soon, they definitively answered some lingering questions about the chip's capabilities: It can support up to 8GB of RAM. It can do on-the-fly GPU switching. And it can work together with the MacBook Pro's discrete 9600M GT. But it doesn't do any of those things. Yet.

Since the hardware is capable of all of these things, it means that they can all be enabled by a software/firmware/driver update. Whether or not that happens is entirely up to Apple. While you can argue that Hybrid SLI—using both GPUs at once—has a limited, balls-to-the-wall utility, being able to switch between the integrated 9400M and discrete 9600M GT on the fly without logging out would obviously be enormously easier than the current setup, and allow for some more creative automatic energy preferences—discrete when plugged in, integrated on battery. Hell, you can do it in Windows on some machines.

But since it's Apple it's also entirely possible we'll never see any of this to come to pass—GPU-accelerated video decoding has totally been possible with the 8600M GT in the previous-gen MacBook Pros, and well, you know where that stands.
 
nVidia officially announced that the MacBooks support 8GB of RAM as well as the use of both GPUs at the same time - either using dynamic switching for power conservation, or literally at the same time to boost rendering performance. Rendering performance should improve by about 50% with both GPUs running at the same time, at the extreme expense of battery life.

Please read some reviews of systems with two different GPUs. The performance will never increase by 50%! More likely is 1%. There is a reason Apple doesn't support it.
 
That was exactly what I was thinking ;)
That is a good point.

I am also wondering if the inactive graphics chipset is utilized by the external monitor for desktop expansion / mirroring. That would be a nice feature too, leaving the one GPU chugging a presentation while the other is almost idle providing the presenter with notes or controls to the presentation.

I don't have an adapter for my Display port yet, but it is something I want to test!

Regardless,

If Apple did not make this system capable of using both GPUs in Snow Leopard, I will be highly disappointed by that accidental (or purposeful) misstep.

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That was exactly what I was thinking ;)

Not sure why this makes sense. It would be powering up two GPUs to do the work of one. Kind of like having more cooks in the kitchen than you need. Waste of resources (in this case, power).

Hybrid SLI makes sense, using two GPUs to drive two monitors when one can do the same job just fine doesn't.
 
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