MacBook Pro Does Not Support Both GPUs Simultaneously

[Makindosh]

Never seen this

Apple needs to retire Steve Jobs and hire a CEO who doesn't attempt to cripple their computers at every possible turn with anorexic thinness, style, missing features and horrible video cards. Enough is enough. Steve needs a rest anyway. Bring back somebody who likes computers. Bring back Woz.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...umbs_up.jpg/750px-Steve_Wozniak_thumbs_up.jpg

Why the Apple logo is upside down?

 

[cult hero]

Honesty logging out is not such a big deal

It really is.

I have a MacBook now and never shut it down save it when I update. My browser is always open. Many of my programs are never closed and I never have to wait. It's nice. What good is an "instant on" LCD is I have to log out and wait to switch GPUs?

I mean, mine will run the 9400 most of the time for now since the only game I care about requires booting into Windows anyway. But still... that's annoying.

 

[Makindosh]

True.

Wow... is everyone on this forum 12 years old or something? I've never seen so much whining in my life.

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Don't like it, spike it! Apple didn't do that. Apple did that. I am not gonna buy. I am gonna do that and that. Wah-wah-wah.

Buy Alienware or something. It is not easy and snappy thing to make a whole notebook. There are solid reasons why Apple made them this way. Apple know what they are doing.

 

[glenb2]

It is unlikely that the current implementation of Nvidia's dual-GPU setup on the Macbook Pro will ever support concurrent use of both GPUs. Here's why:

Nvidia's "Hybrid SLI" is really two technologies:

1) HybridPower
HybridPower unleashes graphics performance when needed and switches to quiet, low-power quiet operation for everyday computing. Dial up performance for demanding 3D games and applications; downshift to the mGPU to reduce noise and extended battery life for everyday computing tasks like browsing the Web, word processing, or watching High Definition videos.

2) GeForce Boost
GeForce Boost turbocharges the performance of NVIDIA discrete GPUs when combined with NVIDIA motherboard GPUs. Plug any NVIDIA Hybrid SLI-enabled GPU into any NVIDIA Hybrid SLI-enabled motherboard to enjoy additive performance and more for your money.

The Macbook Pro uses number 1. What this does is switch between the integrated graphics and the discrete GPU when the operating system demands it. Right now, that's only on login/logout. In the future, this could potentially be more flexible.

The reason for this is that the Quartz Compositor (the software that allows GPU accelerated graphics) runs as a child of the loginwindow process. Although it could be uncoupled, right now the compositor is set up when the loginwindow creates an instance for a user at login time. This is pretty low-level functionality and so if that behavior changes, it's most likely to do so in Snow Leopard.

Technology number 2 is GeForce Boost. This is only available when the discrete graphic chip is a 9200, 9300, or 9500 chip. It is NOT available, mac or windows, for the 9600 and higher series. The most likely reason for this the nature of SLI. SLI means Scan Line Interleaving. With 2 GPUs, one GPU draws the odd number rows of pixels and the other draws the even rows. This generally works best when both of your GPUs are about the same speed. Otherwise, the faster GPU is just waiting for the slower one to finish drawing. This is why only the slower discrete GPUs are supported for GeForce Boost. It's because the 9200 series is in the same speed range as the on-board 9400.

It's likely that the discrete GPU in the MacBook Pro is faster on its own than a 9200 would be interleaved with the 9400. Essentially, GeForce Boost uses the following formula:

[Slowest GPU] x2 = peak performance

If the discrete GPU is 2x the speed of the slowest GPU (9400 integrated) then you get no gains from GeForce Boost. It's possible that you could do SLI in a [3 to 2] or [2 to 1] ratio but I'm not aware of any SLI systems on any platform that currently are capable of apportioning SLI rendering based on relative GPU speed. It always requires a matched or near-matched GPU pair.

Finally, you get a benefit from using just the discrete GPU by itself and turning off the 9400. Because the 9400 uses main memory instead of dedicated DDR, when it's active you have the GPU traffic going over the main memory bus. When you disable the 9400 in favor of the separate GPU, you free up some memory bandwidth (even if the RAM's still allocated to the GPU the bus traffic isn't active) and thus the CPU has more resources available. In a gaming or rendering situation, this is probably preferable to a GeForce Boost scenario if you main GPU is fast enough.

Another thing to consider is that Apple is way behind the Windows market in implementing GPU features. For instance, on my MacBook Pro, my CPU load is much higher playing an H.264 video in OSX than it is in Windows. Why? Most modern GPUs offer hardware acceleration of video playback. OSX Leopard currently does not use this functionality to its full extent and still renders the movie in software (but does do window display and compositing in hardware).

Hopefully this helps explain the MBP GPU setup a bit more.

Great post amongst the madness. Implementing Hybrid SLI at this point with Snow Leopard around the corner would not have been wise. It would be a huge undertaking. Consider the syncronization nightmare that is involved between a discrete GPU with its own memory and that of an onboard GPU, which DEPENDS on main memory. If main memory bottlenecks during intensive processing and slows down the 9400, the frames processed by the 9600 would have to wait or the 9600 would have to go back and fill in what the 9400 couldn't process in time. SLI with 2 identical cards with their own memory allows for much easier syncing...None of these issues have to thought of. I think people are really underestimating the work that is needed to do Hybrid SLI. Frankly it's a feat the technology exists period. If you really think about, the overhead involved in syncing one card with another that's 2.5x faster may not give you a boost worth the development at the 9600m level. Even IF the boost could warrant the development (which costs $$$), could you blame Apple for not putting the time into an OS that is going to be replaced next summer? Can you imagine the possible bugs that could occur that they would have to field and fix? I wish Hybrid worked too, but cut Apple a little slack here.

 

[slackpacker]

What version of windows vista did you use to see does 4Gb?

32 bit Vista shows 4GB. The Bios is different now in the MBP late 2008

 

[McBeats]

next revision better make both of em work together, if possible i mean. and i dont see why not...

 

[redkamel]

this is the dumbest feature ever.

1. So I have a pro machine, and I have choice between integrated graphics like a macbook, or better gfx card with an hr less life, AND I have to log out EACH time I want to switch? Kind of lame for a company built on simplicity, not compromising, and performance. Actually, REALLY LAME and dissapointing. Totally unacceptable.

My only kool aid drinking hope is that when snow leopard comes out it will use either card as needed, or both cards simultaneously if needed.

The Macbook pro is essentially the macbook with a graphics card and a far nicer monitor. Should have thrown in a Blu ray drive though. And a matte option, and a better keyboard, both called for by the pros on messageboards.

They didnt stop the matte screen option to "unify the look". Its to save costs. The MB and MBP are now basically the same, except for one card, a port or two, and the panel behind the glass. I can live with the keyboard, no matte, ok I can manage. But log out to use my graphics card? whats up with that?

AND dont tell me "Dont like it dont buy it". I like Apple. I care that they are the only company that makes quality computers that also have a great OS. I like their ethos. Sure, some equipment is not for everybody...I would not say the Air is for everybody, but the people who have it, love it. When Apple come out with stuff that is a compromise, and in some ways worse, I am very displeased. Especially when it has to with the pro market, and the MBP is upgrade was things pros say they don't want, or is a compromise of things they do.

 

[McBeats]

you have to BOOT to switch????

i dont like using this phrase usually cuz its reserved for nerds, but im pretty nerdly pissed...

EPIC FAIL...

ur gonna take away a firewire port (which i use A LOT), leave a fw800 (who the hell uses 800 yet? let alone 3200), but still leave only 2 usb ports???? jeeeez
my sound card doesnt work right with a powered usb hub.

Apple, you suck this time around, and i am sorry to say that.
if the next revision doesnt have blu ray, im turning my back on the apple portable market.

 

[w0by]

interesting...

I was at the Apple store last night and the employees were walking around talking to their customers (including me) how "sweet" the new Macbook Pro is totally worth the upgrade because it can use BOTH graphics cards at once...to make the graphics way faster. When they told me that you could use both at once, even I was like "ah, now it makes the computer really nice compared to mine"

Sounds like they had no clue either, lol.

 

[Patriiick]

you have to BOOT to switch????

i dont like using this phrase usually cuz its reserved for nerds, but im pretty nerdly pissed...

EPIC FAIL...

ur gonna take away a firewire port (which i use A LOT), leave a fw800 (who the hell uses 800 yet? let alone 3200), but still leave only 2 usb ports???? jeeeez
my sound card doesnt work right with a powered usb hub.

Apple, you suck this time around, and i am sorry to say that.
if the next revision doesnt have blu ray, im turning my back on the apple portable market.

Ease off on the sugar intake.

You dont have to BOOT to switch, you logoff and logon again..
It s not the same thing by a long shot

I use FW800 and it s compatible with FW400. Lots of people use fw800 - just because you dont does not mean one one else does..
it's significantly faster than 400. Have you tried it ?

More generally speaking, If you dont like the products, why come here and bitch about it ? Do you think Apple staff spend their day reading every post of macrumors.com ?

 

[slackpacker]

I was at the Apple store last night and the employees were walking around talking to their customers (including me) how "sweet" the new Macbook Pro is totally worth the upgrade because it can use BOTH graphics cards at once...to make the graphics way faster. When they told me that you could use both at once, even I was like "ah, now it makes the computer really nice compared to mine"

Sounds like they had no clue either, lol.

Technically you can use both when 10.5.6 comes out. This is from info posted by Nvidia. Under windows though its locked to using the 9600m GT.

 

[digitalbiker]

this is the dumbest feature ever.

1. So I have a pro machine, and I have choice between integrated graphics like a macbook, or better gfx card with an hr less life, AND I have to log out EACH time I want to switch? Kind of lame for a company built on simplicity, not compromising, and performance. Actually, REALLY LAME and dissapointing. Totally unacceptable.

My only kool aid drinking hope is that when snow leopard comes out it will use either card as needed, or both cards simultaneously if needed.

The Macbook pro is essentially the macbook with a graphics card and a far nicer monitor. Should have thrown in a Blu ray drive though. And a matte option, and a better keyboard, both called for by the pros on messageboards.

They didnt stop the matte screen option to "unify the look". Its to save costs. The MB and MBP are now basically the same, except for one card, a port or two, and the panel behind the glass. I can live with the keyboard, no matte, ok I can manage. But log out to use my graphics card? whats up with that?

AND dont tell me "Dont like it dont buy it". I like Apple. I care that they are the only company that makes quality computers that also have a great OS. I like their ethos. Sure, some equipment is not for everybody...I would not say the Air is for everybody, but the people who have it, love it. When Apple come out with stuff that is a compromise, and in some ways worse, I am very displeased. Especially when it has to with the pro market, and the MBP is upgrade was things pros say they don't want, or is a compromise of things they do.

Well according to gizmodo the MBP keyboard is also superior to the MB keyboard. They describe the MB keyboard as soft and spongy while the MBP keyboard as clicking and firmer.

Also you are thinking about this all wrong. The integrated 9400M is built into the chipset. It would be there no matter what. Apple added the 9600M GT discrete card for enhanced performance. You don't have to log out if you don't want to, just run all of the time using the 9600M. I'm sure that in the future Snow Leopard will provide a more elegant solution. But even if Apple used intels Montevina chipset there is also integrated graphics included as well. There is some question as to whether performance would be enhanced at all using both GPUs simultaneously. According to Nvidia, Boost mode doesn't help for GPUs above 9500M.

Also remember that the solid glass display is the reason for being all glossy. This same glass covers the black plastic surround and the isight camera. If the glass had a matte finish it would look weird over the black plastic surround and would blur the isight lens.

Apple's only choice would be to texture the glass immediately over the display area and leave a halo around the screen flat glass. I think this would be strange where the glass transitions from smooth to texture. Also I am not sure how well this would work being raised so far above the screen.

 

[seanessey]

my solution:

Leave it on the discrete GPU - ALL THE TIME!! Bwahahaha!!

What's an extra hour of battery anyway?

Can't wait to see how this works under 10.6

Can't wait for Apple to ship my 2.8....(!)

 

[ikir]

It is official: Mac users are getting stupid.

Sure ti would be cool to use both, we all hope for a software limitation but....

WE HAVE A 9600GT ON A NOTEBOOK. It has an outstanding power, and they included a 9400 too to save battery life!!! I think it is outstanding.

I'm sure that if apple included only 9600GT all would be fine and not so negative, but with 2 you want to use 2 even if you don't need it.

 

[ikir]

you have to BOOT to switch????

i dont like using this phrase usually cuz its reserved for nerds, but im pretty nerdly pissed...

EPIC FAIL...

ur gonna take away a firewire port (which i use A LOT), leave a fw800 (who the hell uses 800 yet? let alone 3200), but still leave only 2 usb ports???? jeeeez
my sound card doesnt work right with a powered usb hub.

Apple, you suck this time around, and i am sorry to say that.
if the next revision doesnt have blu ray, im turning my back on the apple portable market.

IDIOT, you need few seconds to log out, you don't need to reboot you machine. How stupid are getting all of you! Just stop bitching, we have incredible machine, nobody can match and you see only the negative things and usually even the ones not true. Congratulations to macrumors.

 

[ipsmo]

A lot of you need to grow up and stop complaining about something you don't even own let alone are probably not purchasing. (I just placed an order for one yesterday.) I'm sure most of you didn't even know what SLI was before these new MacBooks and MacBook Pro's were even released, yet all of a sudden it's a big deal to you now. Most of you probably don't even require this sort of functionality for the work and games you would be playing (It's not like there are many good games OS X to begin with and SLI won't work with these graphics cards under XP for gaming or any other use anyway). SLI is new technology yet your surprised the MacBook Pro doesn't support it because of the fact that it has two graphics cards. That is understandable, but come one people, think for a second, let alone read. In NRRoach's post here, he explains the whole situation pretty much perfectly clear. It seems likely and possible that SLI or something similar will be supported in Snow Leopard for the new MacBook Pro's and beyond. Heck it could come even sooner. It is software people. As NRRoach states in his posts, to support SLI in OS X would REQUIRE some major changes in loginwindow process, Quartz Compisitor, systemuiserver process, and more. They can't just be changed to support SLI that fast (hence Snow Leopard being a better likelihood for SLI). Apple wanted to get these notebooks out but they weren't going enable something as complex as that and compromise people's systems with bugs that could effect how things are drawn on screen.

Finally, many of you people need to stop making hasty posts and just relax and know what your posting about rather than making yourself appear childish and dumb.

 

[knightlie]

lol Not true!

Link?

that is bad. it seemed that apple said that you could do this at the keynote

No, they didn't.

Good god some people dont give Apple enough credit for being smart enough to have known this in the beginning when they were making these new mb/mbp.

They have a plan! They will make fast if not auto switching between processors. I bet they will also make simultaneous use when Snow Leopard comes out as well. Calm down. Put some faith in them. If you are writing in this blog to begin with, then you obviously give two ***** about Apple so quit whining and wait for them to release some small software updates.

QFT. It's pretty obvious this extra GPU thing ties into what we know about Snow Leopard. Sadly there are so many people on here who can't look at the big picture long enough to see it, but would rather just rant at having to spend twenty seconds logging back in when they want to gain 20% extra battery life.

WHAT!

Then it's not SLI.....So you log out of OS X, and then what? Do a key command more complicated than clearing the PRAM and hold one foot in the air?

Apple didn't say it was SLI. They just said the MBP has two GPUs.

Why do you suddenly NEED to hot swap when you've never done so before? To show your mates how cool it is?

Exactly, most of the posters in here doesn't seem to have any clue what they are ranting about.

"The MBP has two GPUS."

"Hey, neat"!

"You have to log out to switch between them."

"What? Lolz that sucks, Apple are dumbasses."

 

[knightlie]

Another EPICFAIL for Apple.

What? Can you actually give a reason for your statement, without resorting to quoting a tiny minority of internet geeks voting on MR?

I sometimes wonder why Apple bother at all, given some of the spoilt-brat responses they get around here. Nothing is ever good enough.

 

[McBeats]

Ease off on the sugar intake.

I use FW800 and it s compatible with FW400. Lots of people use fw800 - just because you dont does not mean one one else does..
it's significantly faster than 400. Have you tried it ?

More generally speaking, If you dont like the products, why come here and bitch about it ? Do you think Apple staff spend their day reading every post of macrumors.com ?

id love to try the fw800, but theres nothing that uses it... lol

not like fw400 and usb2....

and nah, im gonna keep bitching, on the internet.
it dont cost me a thing, plus people hear my opinion. so im gonna keep on doin it, like everyone else.
you gotta deal with people like me, just like i gotta deal with apple making bad decisions occasionally.

im not the only one here that thinks apple blew it this time around. in just throwing my voice out there with the rest of the crowd...

there ya go, another post of mine that u can talk down

 

[ipsmo]

id love to try the fw800, but theres nothing that uses it... lol

not like fw400 and usb2....

and nah, im gonna keep bitching, on the internet.
it dont cost me a thing, plus people hear my opinion. so im gonna keep on doin it, like everyone else.
you gotta deal with people like me, just like i gotta deal with apple making bad decisions occasionally.

im not the only one here that thinks apple blew it this time around. in just throwing my voice out there with the rest of the crowd...

there ya go, another post of mine that u can talk down

Grow up and move on. It's only a damn computer. Now how about you stay on topic and complain about firewire elsewhere.

 

[ipo]

10.5.6

I have a feeling that these new Macs are more forward-looking than we give them credit for. I think a lot of Snow Leopard and even 10.6 will take full advantage of things that Leopard as it is today won't address.

Seen at Engadget, quote:

I like how this nvidia FAQ answers it all: NVIDIA'S ANSWER

" Question
Does the Apple Macbook Pro (Late 2008) support NVIDIA's Hybrid SLI® technology?

Answer

No. NVIDIA Hybrid SLI technology for notebook computers allows a motherboard GPU and a discrete GPU to work together for extreme multi-GPU SLI performance when needed (called GeForce Boost mode), or use just a single GPU for low power consumption and long battery life (called Hybrid Power mode).

Apple's Macbook Pro (Late 2008) does feature both the NVIDIA® GeForce®9400M motherboard GPU for everyday computing and the NVIDIA® GeForce® 9600M GT discrete GPU for high graphics performance. You can switch between the Geforce 9400M motherboard GPU (called energy saver mode) and the Geforce 9600M GT discrete GPU (called performance mode), but you cannot use both GPU's at once in this implementation.

Apple's hybrid graphics technology is supported under the MacOS X operating system version 10.5.6 and higher only. When running Microsoft's Windows XP™ or Microsoft's Windows Vista™ using Apple's Boot Camp, the system locks into performance mode which uses the Geforce 9600M GT discrete GPU for all graphics related tasks and can not be changed to use the Geforce 9400M motherboard GPU for low power mode."

I guess it's just a software limitation folks !
edit: I'm sorry,didn't notice it was already posted here :-/

 

[McBeats]

IDIOT, you need few seconds to log out, you don't need to reboot you machine. How stupid are getting all of you! Just stop bitching, we have incredible machine, nobody can match and you see only the negative things and usually even the ones not true. Congratulations to macrumors.

u dont even know me lol

i think theres GREAT things about the new laptop, greater with the macbook now imo, but im focused on the negative right now. so

lol its funny how a day ago, many people were talkin the same way im talkin, now today, its "i love it". and yes, u can EASILY match that 'incredible' machine.

soo that being said, ill go with what u guys r gonna say to me,

i dont like it, so im not going to buy it.

i love macrumors, i love u guys, even the ones playin the hatin game with me, against me

im done posting here, see ya guys next revision!

 

[imm22]

Just send this to nvidia knowledge base. Wait for the response today!

Hello,

Regarding the Hybrid SLi limitation of the new MacBook Pro, that's an Hardware or a software limitation?

In case of software,is nvidia planning the release of a bootcamp Driver for windows Vista 32/64 bits?

And on last question.
Is the Chipset and Mobo, limited to 32Bits, then limiting the amount of RAM? Will 64bits OS take full advantage of this new Nvidia 9400 (Graphics / Chipset) ?

 

[pytter]

....... Do you think Apple staff spend their day reading every post of macrumors.com ?

LOL - That would be the most depressing job at Apple Inc.......

 

[ageha]

IDIOT, you need few seconds to log out, you don't need to reboot you machine. How stupid are getting all of you! Just stop bitching, we have incredible machine, nobody can match and you see only the negative things and usually even the ones not true. Congratulations to macrumors.

Looks like most people don't work with their Mac.