Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Ooh yay, something else for the crowd here to whine about incessantly, just what the forum needed :rolleyes:

They never said it would have SLI in the first place, so I'm not worried about it. That gfx chip screams well enough :)

Good luck switching to a PC... A new world of worries and magic crap awaits you.

I'd sooner put it Steve Jobs' way - PCs are a big bag of hurt.
 
OT: Apple confirms that there will be no adapter for old video-output-ports for the new 24" LED Cinema Display (http://www.fscklog.com/2008/10/24-led-cinema-d.html)

Well that just stinks..... I was hoping for an adapter. Well, lets hope some third party comes out with one. Of course the display probably will not be as good since display port is a different technology, but it would be nice to use on my existing macbook.

blah, here is looking to a bookendz doc and a monitor from elsewhere.
 
It is unlikely that the current implementation of Nvidia's dual-GPU setup on the Macbook Pro will ever support concurrent use of both GPUs. Here's why:

Nvidia's "Hybrid SLI" is really two technologies:

1) HybridPower
HybridPower unleashes graphics performance when needed and switches to quiet, low-power quiet operation for everyday computing. Dial up performance for demanding 3D games and applications; downshift to the mGPU to reduce noise and extended battery life for everyday computing tasks like browsing the Web, word processing, or watching High Definition videos.

2) GeForce Boost
GeForce Boost turbocharges the performance of NVIDIA discrete GPUs when combined with NVIDIA motherboard GPUs. Plug any NVIDIA Hybrid SLI-enabled GPU into any NVIDIA Hybrid SLI-enabled motherboard to enjoy additive performance and more for your money.

The Macbook Pro uses number 1. What this does is switch between the integrated graphics and the discrete GPU when the operating system demands it. Right now, that's only on login/logout. In the future, this could potentially be more flexible.

The reason for this is that the Quartz Compositor (the software that allows GPU accelerated graphics) runs as a child of the loginwindow process. Although it could be uncoupled, right now the compositor is set up when the loginwindow creates an instance for a user at login time. This is pretty low-level functionality and so if that behavior changes, it's most likely to do so in Snow Leopard.

Technology number 2 is GeForce Boost. This is only available when the discrete graphic chip is a 9200, 9300, or 9500 chip. It is NOT available, mac or windows, for the 9600 and higher series. The most likely reason for this the nature of SLI. SLI means Scan Line Interleaving. With 2 GPUs, one GPU draws the odd number rows of pixels and the other draws the even rows. This generally works best when both of your GPUs are about the same speed. Otherwise, the faster GPU is just waiting for the slower one to finish drawing. This is why only the slower discrete GPUs are supported for GeForce Boost. It's because the 9200 series is in the same speed range as the on-board 9400.

It's likely that the discrete GPU in the MacBook Pro is faster on its own than a 9200 would be interleaved with the 9400. Essentially, GeForce Boost uses the following formula:

[Slowest GPU] x2 = peak performance

If the discrete GPU is 2x the speed of the slowest GPU (9400 integrated) then you get no gains from GeForce Boost. It's possible that you could do SLI in a [3 to 2] or [2 to 1] ratio but I'm not aware of any SLI systems on any platform that currently are capable of apportioning SLI rendering based on relative GPU speed. It always requires a matched or near-matched GPU pair.

Finally, you get a benefit from using just the discrete GPU by itself and turning off the 9400. Because the 9400 uses main memory instead of dedicated DDR, when it's active you have the GPU traffic going over the main memory bus. When you disable the 9400 in favor of the separate GPU, you free up some memory bandwidth (even if the RAM's still allocated to the GPU the bus traffic isn't active) and thus the CPU has more resources available. In a gaming or rendering situation, this is probably preferable to a GeForce Boost scenario if you main GPU is fast enough.

Another thing to consider is that Apple is way behind the Windows market in implementing GPU features. For instance, on my MacBook Pro, my CPU load is much higher playing an H.264 video in OSX than it is in Windows. Why? Most modern GPUs offer hardware acceleration of video playback. OSX Leopard currently does not use this functionality to its full extent and still renders the movie in software (but does do window display and compositing in hardware).

Hopefully this helps explain the MBP GPU setup a bit more.

Well, thank you very much. I think you are bringing some much needed perspective.
 
All right you PANSIES! Quit your "log-out" whining and listen up. I'm tired of hearing about "I have to log-out" issue about the graphic processors. I think you ALL have it WRONG anyways! Let me elaborate.... Who the heck runs their graphic sessions in "battery conservation mode"!? I DONT! I don't know about you, but when I start my intense graphic sessions, I'm jacked into the wall. WOW on battery power? Call of Duty on battery? 3GB Photoshop rendering on battery? NO!- I use AC POWER!!! Anyone with any experience knows, you plug-in to the wall to do serious work. Your battery doesn't last but 20mins anyways, so who are they kidding? Apple has taken this whole "conservation" thing a little too far now, and now is robbing us of a possible "SLI" configuration because of their sissy engineers. Allow me....

Apple needs to empower its laptop users with some real power options. When I feel like being a pansy, I use my integrated graphics chip in battery conservation mode. BUT, when I feel like getting down and dirty, let me plug in, REBOOT, and pull as much power from the wall as possible! HOO-RAHHH! Now I'm running blazing fast with BOTH processors enabled simultaneously. Now doesn't that make more sense, and it's APPLE SMART!

STEVE, quit your sissying around and get some engineers with some real balls in there. -RPX353

Wow - that's a rant. I have a strange feeling that Snow Leopard may be ready by macworld and then these new macbooks/pros will be slammin. Would not be surprised with a REV B or firmware update to have them both work by then.

But seriously, with the decline of desktops and everyone on the go - it is time to put some serious power into laptops. and include a standard apple docking mechanism for when I am at home/office and want to plug into a display and external drives that I do not take with me (ie time machine backups, external CD/DVD burner with lightscribe, etc.
 
Good god some people dont give Apple enough credit for being smart enough to have known this in the beginning when they were making these new mb/mbp.

They have a plan! They will make fast if not auto switching between processors. I bet they will also make simultaneous use when Snow Leopard comes out as well. Calm down. Put some faith in them. If you are writing in this blog to begin with, then you obviously give two ***** about Apple so quit whining and wait for them to release some small software updates.

That's nice. Shame HP and Lenovo already do this.
 
Why does it need two GPUs anyway? The high performance once should be able to downclock when not needed and save power that way.
 
It is unlikely that the current implementation of Nvidia's dual-GPU setup on the Macbook Pro will ever support concurrent use of both GPUs. Here's why:

Nvidia's "Hybrid SLI" is really two technologies:

1) HybridPower
HybridPower unleashes graphics performance when needed and switches to quiet, low-power quiet operation for everyday computing. Dial up performance for demanding 3D games and applications; downshift to the mGPU to reduce noise and extended battery life for everyday computing tasks like browsing the Web, word processing, or watching High Definition videos.

2) GeForce Boost
GeForce Boost turbocharges the performance of NVIDIA discrete GPUs when combined with NVIDIA motherboard GPUs. Plug any NVIDIA Hybrid SLI-enabled GPU into any NVIDIA Hybrid SLI-enabled motherboard to enjoy additive performance and more for your money.

The Macbook Pro uses number 1. What this does is switch between the integrated graphics and the discrete GPU when the operating system demands it. Right now, that's only on login/logout. In the future, this could potentially be more flexible.

The reason for this is that the Quartz Compositor (the software that allows GPU accelerated graphics) runs as a child of the loginwindow process. Although it could be uncoupled, right now the compositor is set up when the loginwindow creates an instance for a user at login time. This is pretty low-level functionality and so if that behavior changes, it's most likely to do so in Snow Leopard.

Technology number 2 is GeForce Boost. This is only available when the discrete graphic chip is a 9200, 9300, or 9500 chip. It is NOT available, mac or windows, for the 9600 and higher series. The most likely reason for this the nature of SLI. SLI means Scan Line Interleaving. With 2 GPUs, one GPU draws the odd number rows of pixels and the other draws the even rows. This generally works best when both of your GPUs are about the same speed. Otherwise, the faster GPU is just waiting for the slower one to finish drawing. This is why only the slower discrete GPUs are supported for GeForce Boost. It's because the 9200 series is in the same speed range as the on-board 9400.

It's likely that the discrete GPU in the MacBook Pro is faster on its own than a 9200 would be interleaved with the 9400. Essentially, GeForce Boost uses the following formula:

[Slowest GPU] x2 = peak performance

If the discrete GPU is 2x the speed of the slowest GPU (9400 integrated) then you get no gains from GeForce Boost. It's possible that you could do SLI in a [3 to 2] or [2 to 1] ratio but I'm not aware of any SLI systems on any platform that currently are capable of apportioning SLI rendering based on relative GPU speed. It always requires a matched or near-matched GPU pair.

Finally, you get a benefit from using just the discrete GPU by itself and turning off the 9400. Because the 9400 uses main memory instead of dedicated DDR, when it's active you have the GPU traffic going over the main memory bus. When you disable the 9400 in favor of the separate GPU, you free up some memory bandwidth (even if the RAM's still allocated to the GPU the bus traffic isn't active) and thus the CPU has more resources available. In a gaming or rendering situation, this is probably preferable to a GeForce Boost scenario if you main GPU is fast enough.

Another thing to consider is that Apple is way behind the Windows market in implementing GPU features. For instance, on my MacBook Pro, my CPU load is much higher playing an H.264 video in OSX than it is in Windows. Why? Most modern GPUs offer hardware acceleration of video playback. OSX Leopard currently does not use this functionality to its full extent and still renders the movie in software (but does do window display and compositing in hardware).

Hopefully this helps explain the MBP GPU setup a bit more.


Thanks for a thoughtful response. This makes good sense.

That said, GeForce BOOST is a technology focusing on using two GPUs simultaneous for graphics. Am I right in saying that both chips could be used simultaneously for CUDA in snow leopard?
 
I gotta say, it's a bit of a pain in the arse. I started exporting a video before, and halfway through realised I was on power save mode. Too far through to save time, but it would've made a difference at the outset...

hmm...

I hope they fix it!

Also:
 

Attachments

  • Picture 1.png
    Picture 1.png
    7.1 KB · Views: 1,091
=Hey it supports PhysX

"Enabling the new era of visual computing, the NVIDIA® GeForce® 9600M GT GPUs deliver the ultimate balance between mobility and performance for astounding PureVideo® HD technology playback capabilities combined with 3D features to enable visually-intense applications and games. With Hybrid SLI® technology features like HybridPower™ technology and GeForce Boost, you have optimal power management capabilities together with enhanced performance for one of the most ideal systems available today. This product is also enabled for CUDA applications and is NVIDIA PhysX-ready."

This actually works really well and speeds up graphics for things that support it. Awesome!
 
All right you PANSIES! Quit your "log-out" whining and listen up. I'm tired of hearing about "I have to log-out" issue about the graphic processors. I think you ALL have it WRONG anyways! Let me elaborate.... Who the heck runs their graphic sessions in "battery conservation mode"!? I DONT! I don't know about you, but when I start my intense graphic sessions, I'm jacked into the wall. WOW on battery power? Call of Duty on battery? 3GB Photoshop rendering on battery? NO!- I use AC POWER!!! Anyone with any experience knows, you plug-in to the wall to do serious work. Your battery doesn't last but 20mins anyways, so who are they kidding? Apple has taken this whole "conservation" thing a little too far now, and now is robbing us of a possible "SLI" configuration because of their sissy engineers. Allow me....

Apple needs to empower its laptop users with some real power options. When I feel like being a pansy, I use my integrated graphics chip in battery conservation mode. BUT, when I feel like getting down and dirty, let me plug in, REBOOT, and pull as much power from the wall as possible! HOO-RAHHH! Now I'm running blazing fast with BOTH processors enabled simultaneously. Now doesn't that make more sense, and it's APPLE SMART!

STEVE, quit your sissying around and get some engineers with some real balls in there. -RPX353

What's the point? Who cares if everybody needs it or not. It can be done and is doen't cost a penny extra so of course I expect it when I spend AU$4000 for a mid range notebook.
 
Wow... is everyone on this forum 12 years old or something? I've never seen so much whining in my life.

If you don't like it, don't buy it.
 
Needing to log out to switch GPUs is very, very LAME.

But regarding this:



Is that really true? I looked around for some benchmarks on GeForce Boost (where a mother board GPU and discrete GPU work together to boost performance) on a Notebook using similar GPUs but I haven't found anything yet. I want to see a comparison of a notebook using just the discrete GPU vs. using both the discrete GPU + the motherboard GPU.

I did read up on GeForce Boost, though, and it sounds a little hokey.

It works like this (I think?):
(1) Rendering commands are sent to both GPUs. Each only has to render a portion of the final image, but they both have to process all commands.
(2) The separate rendered images are combined in a single frame buffer.

The problem with (1) is that you have to wait for both GPUs to finish before moving on to step (2). When the GPUs are mismatched as they in this case, that could leave the more powerful one waiting around. That can be overcome to some extent by having the slower GPU render a smaller part of the final image (i.e. the discrete GPU does 2/3rds, while the motherboard GPU does 1/3rd) but there are limits to that since both GPU needs to process all the commands to some degree.

And (2) implies there's an extra copy step that would not be necessary in a single GPU situation. I don't know if this copy takes a significant amount of time or not.

So, due to the redundant processing in (1) and the extra copy in (2), the power of the two GPUs together is less than the sum of their individual power.

^^^^

This is all based on my understanding of it after reading articles on the Internet, so I'm not sure I've got it right. Real-life benchmarks will really be able to sort how well this works in reality, so I hope someone knows of some.

- - - - - -

Of course, once Snow Leopard comes out, it would be a real shame if both GPUs can't be used simultaneously (or even independently without logging out/in).
 
Logging out and in isn't that big a deal.

But this is Apple we are talking about. I'm sure that there will be an update soon that will allow OS X to determine which graphics card to use and allow on-the-fly switching.
 
Thanks for a very informative post!

This is the type of factual info I was looking for ... not all the whining.

This also makes me think, though, there's probably no reason the integrated 9400M couldn't be used as sort of a math co-processor in the background while the 9600GT was in use for the video, if the right software driver was developed for the purpose?

Given your explanation, it seems pretty clear why interleaving "GeForce Boost" technology wouldn't make sense with this particular chip configuration ... but I could see where using the 9400M to offload some number crunching calculations from the main CPU would be desirable.

Personally, I suspect "Snow Leopard" is going to offer that kind of functionality as one of it's "new performance enhancing features" (along with eliminating the need to log out/log in to switch GPUs) ... but I can't see why this couldn't be done on an application-specific basis right now, with enough clever coding? I could totally see apps like "VisualHub" even tackling this one for faster transcoding?


It is unlikely that the current implementation of Nvidia's dual-GPU setup on the Macbook Pro will ever support concurrent use of both GPUs. Here's why:

Nvidia's "Hybrid SLI" is really two technologies:

1) HybridPower
HybridPower unleashes graphics performance when needed and switches to quiet, low-power quiet operation for everyday computing. Dial up performance for demanding 3D games and applications; downshift to the mGPU to reduce noise and extended battery life for everyday computing tasks like browsing the Web, word processing, or watching High Definition videos.

2) GeForce Boost
GeForce Boost turbocharges the performance of NVIDIA discrete GPUs when combined with NVIDIA motherboard GPUs. Plug any NVIDIA Hybrid SLI-enabled GPU into any NVIDIA Hybrid SLI-enabled motherboard to enjoy additive performance and more for your money.

The Macbook Pro uses number 1. What this does is switch between the integrated graphics and the discrete GPU when the operating system demands it. Right now, that's only on login/logout. In the future, this could potentially be more flexible.

The reason for this is that the Quartz Compositor (the software that allows GPU accelerated graphics) runs as a child of the loginwindow process. Although it could be uncoupled, right now the compositor is set up when the loginwindow creates an instance for a user at login time. This is pretty low-level functionality and so if that behavior changes, it's most likely to do so in Snow Leopard.

Technology number 2 is GeForce Boost. This is only available when the discrete graphic chip is a 9200, 9300, or 9500 chip. It is NOT available, mac or windows, for the 9600 and higher series. The most likely reason for this the nature of SLI. SLI means Scan Line Interleaving. With 2 GPUs, one GPU draws the odd number rows of pixels and the other draws the even rows. This generally works best when both of your GPUs are about the same speed. Otherwise, the faster GPU is just waiting for the slower one to finish drawing. This is why only the slower discrete GPUs are supported for GeForce Boost. It's because the 9200 series is in the same speed range as the on-board 9400.

It's likely that the discrete GPU in the MacBook Pro is faster on its own than a 9200 would be interleaved with the 9400. Essentially, GeForce Boost uses the following formula:

[Slowest GPU] x2 = peak performance

If the discrete GPU is 2x the speed of the slowest GPU (9400 integrated) then you get no gains from GeForce Boost. It's possible that you could do SLI in a [3 to 2] or [2 to 1] ratio but I'm not aware of any SLI systems on any platform that currently are capable of apportioning SLI rendering based on relative GPU speed. It always requires a matched or near-matched GPU pair.

Finally, you get a benefit from using just the discrete GPU by itself and turning off the 9400. Because the 9400 uses main memory instead of dedicated DDR, when it's active you have the GPU traffic going over the main memory bus. When you disable the 9400 in favor of the separate GPU, you free up some memory bandwidth (even if the RAM's still allocated to the GPU the bus traffic isn't active) and thus the CPU has more resources available. In a gaming or rendering situation, this is probably preferable to a GeForce Boost scenario if you main GPU is fast enough.

Another thing to consider is that Apple is way behind the Windows market in implementing GPU features. For instance, on my MacBook Pro, my CPU load is much higher playing an H.264 video in OSX than it is in Windows. Why? Most modern GPUs offer hardware acceleration of video playback. OSX Leopard currently does not use this functionality to its full extent and still renders the movie in software (but does do window display and compositing in hardware).

Hopefully this helps explain the MBP GPU setup a bit more.
 
I pretty much assumed this would be the case, so no surprise to me. Honestly, I think its fine needing to switch to the discrete gpu because there really is no need to turn it off and on and off and on.
 
Logging out and in isn't that big a deal.

But this is Apple we are talking about. I'm sure that there will be an update soon that will allow OS X to determine which graphics card to use and allow on-the-fly switching.

Sure, the guys who brought us MobileMe can certainly do that. lol
 
I really hope you are right on this one and that we are not facing a hardware limitation over here. I thought I saw on the nvidia website that the 9400M and 9600GT don't support GeForce Boost Mode...

source: http://www.nvidia.com/object/hybridsli_notebook.html (at the bottom)

According to Anandtech the 9400M is a 9300M on steroids. The 9300M is listed as GeForde Boost Mode capable thus the 9400M should also have that capability. I think it is possible regarding hardware, but the software is not (yet) capable.
 
It's funny how this brings me back to my car days and the way a 4-barrel carb works, which would only seem natural. In a 4-barrel carb the primary's are the energy savers, they're basically two flaps that only allow in so much fuel. When you step on the gas even further the second (secondary's) set of flaps open to allow for more fuel = giving you that great burst of power. When you don't need it, let off the gas. There's no flipping a switch, no restarting a car, just a natural way of providing more energy and of course using, wasting?, more.

Sorry to ramble, and I know that computers are a different bag of nuts, but it just seems there should be a natural way of doing things and Apple has definitely missed the mark here.

I'll wait for revB also.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.