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That said, GeForce BOOST is a technology focusing on using two GPUs simultaneous for graphics. Am I right in saying that both chips could be used simultaneously for CUDA in snow leopard?

It's kind of hard to tell at this point. Nvidia's documentation on the HybridSLI technology isn't great. CUDA is just one programming API to access the chip itself. Apple's OpenCL is an alternative that should do the same thing (in possibly a more programmer-friendly way).

That said, i think this should be possible. In their tech-note PDF, it says "There may be times when the system tries to switch hybrid mode to stay in sync with a change in the state of the Vista power plan, but the transition is not possible because a 3D or video application is currently running."

That leads me to believe that applications can address the GPUs independently, even if Apple is doing at the loginwindow level. There doesn't appear to be any reason that independent commands couldn't be sent to each GPU at a system or application level.
 
Sure, the guys who brought us MobileMe can certainly do that. lol

Oh the Pain... but I did get 3 months free service out of the deal.

It's kind of hard to tell at this point. Nvidia's documentation on the HybridSLI technology isn't great. CUDA is just one programming API to access the chip itself. Apple's OpenCL is an alternative that should do the same thing (in possibly a more programmer-friendly way).

That said, i think this should be possible. In their tech-note PDF, it says "There may be times when the system tries to switch hybrid mode to stay in sync with a change in the state of the Vista power plan, but the transition is not possible because a 3D or video application is currently running."

That leads me to believe that applications can address the GPUs independently, even if Apple is doing at the loginwindow level. There doesn't appear to be any reason that independent commands couldn't be sent to each GPU at a system or application level.

The only thing I could see happening is that Apple did not implement this feature into hardware.... But all I think is that if we Boot into BootCamp and try out the Windows Drivers we will have an answer to this question.
 
It's funny how this brings me back to my car days and the way a 4-barrel carb works, which would only seem natural. In a 4-barrel carb the primary's are the energy savers, they're basically two flaps that only allow in so much fuel. When you step on the gas even further the second (secondary's) set of flaps open to allow for more fuel = giving you that great burst of power. When you don't need it, let off the gas. There's no flipping a switch, no restarting a car, just a natural way of providing more energy and of course using, wasting?, more.

Sorry to ramble, and I know that computers are a different bag of nuts, but it just seems there should be a natural way of doing things and Apple has definitely missed the mark here.

I'll wait for revB also.

variable valve timing electronic control
 
It is unlikely that the current implementation of Nvidia's dual-GPU setup on the Macbook Pro will ever support concurrent use of both GPUs. Here's why:

Nvidia's "Hybrid SLI" is really two technologies:

1) HybridPower
HybridPower unleashes graphics performance when needed and switches to quiet, low-power quiet operation for everyday computing. Dial up performance for demanding 3D games and applications; downshift to the mGPU to reduce noise and extended battery life for everyday computing tasks like browsing the Web, word processing, or watching High Definition videos.

2) GeForce Boost
GeForce Boost turbocharges the performance of NVIDIA discrete GPUs when combined with NVIDIA motherboard GPUs. Plug any NVIDIA Hybrid SLI-enabled GPU into any NVIDIA Hybrid SLI-enabled motherboard to enjoy additive performance and more for your money.

The Macbook Pro uses number 1. What this does is switch between the integrated graphics and the discrete GPU when the operating system demands it. Right now, that's only on login/logout. In the future, this could potentially be more flexible.

The reason for this is that the Quartz Compositor (the software that allows GPU accelerated graphics) runs as a child of the loginwindow process. Although it could be uncoupled, right now the compositor is set up when the loginwindow creates an instance for a user at login time. This is pretty low-level functionality and so if that behavior changes, it's most likely to do so in Snow Leopard.

Technology number 2 is GeForce Boost. This is only available when the discrete graphic chip is a 9200, 9300, or 9500 chip. It is NOT available, mac or windows, for the 9600 and higher series. The most likely reason for this the nature of SLI. SLI means Scan Line Interleaving. With 2 GPUs, one GPU draws the odd number rows of pixels and the other draws the even rows. This generally works best when both of your GPUs are about the same speed. Otherwise, the faster GPU is just waiting for the slower one to finish drawing. This is why only the slower discrete GPUs are supported for GeForce Boost. It's because the 9200 series is in the same speed range as the on-board 9400.

It's likely that the discrete GPU in the MacBook Pro is faster on its own than a 9200 would be interleaved with the 9400. Essentially, GeForce Boost uses the following formula:

[Slowest GPU] x2 = peak performance

If the discrete GPU is 2x the speed of the slowest GPU (9400 integrated) then you get no gains from GeForce Boost. It's possible that you could do SLI in a [3 to 2] or [2 to 1] ratio but I'm not aware of any SLI systems on any platform that currently are capable of apportioning SLI rendering based on relative GPU speed. It always requires a matched or near-matched GPU pair.

Finally, you get a benefit from using just the discrete GPU by itself and turning off the 9400. Because the 9400 uses main memory instead of dedicated DDR, when it's active you have the GPU traffic going over the main memory bus. When you disable the 9400 in favor of the separate GPU, you free up some memory bandwidth (even if the RAM's still allocated to the GPU the bus traffic isn't active) and thus the CPU has more resources available. In a gaming or rendering situation, this is probably preferable to a GeForce Boost scenario if you main GPU is fast enough.

Another thing to consider is that Apple is way behind the Windows market in implementing GPU features. For instance, on my MacBook Pro, my CPU load is much higher playing an H.264 video in OSX than it is in Windows. Why? Most modern GPUs offer hardware acceleration of video playback. OSX Leopard currently does not use this functionality to its full extent and still renders the movie in software (but does do window display and compositing in hardware).

Hopefully this helps explain the MBP GPU setup a bit more.

Thank you so much for that. That clarifies and answers some questions and concerns I had concerning GeForce Boost and HybridPower. But I see one issue with your response. In regards to Quartz compositor, I have doubts of it being uncoupled from loginwindow as Quartz compositor has an event queue required for loginwindow as well as being responsible for loading any storing any required bitmap images for windows, etc in the graphics card. At this time it doesn't seem likely or possible, but I hope your right. I hope that Apple can change this in Snow Leopard because it would certainly allow for more potential use and power of the GPU with OS X .
 
Wow!
With all the information going around and all the ranting about HP and Lenovo can to this, sony can do that, netbooks selling good but Apple does not have them, what about touch screen, how come Apple is the only one to eliminate firewire, no blu-rary yet, etc ,etc etc....

I can only help but wonder - other than the trackpad, how these Aluminum cases are made, and OS X

Is Apple starting to fall behind on innovations and playing catchup?

Or, are we just demanding so much from them that they are releasing unfinished products in REV A, just to quiet the masses. I mean other than one or 2 scant rumors, nothing pointing to a true Oct 14th notebook event. then everyone started demanding one and notices were sent out last minute (considering it was a holiday weekend).

You all think Steve just through out an unfinished product to shut everyone up and the real finished product will be at macworld? I mean a laptop that uses dual video cards at once, a new case, trackpad, etc sounds more macworldish than a November event.

I mean think about it. How much time was spent on the manufactuing process and Steve saying "We don't have time to cover this today" and little details on other things.

Personally, I think this was a "here's the new look and case, and we are ready for what we will be sending out"....

I have a feeling there may be some major updates to firmware and OS X in the coming months that will make these babies cook.

Why else do you think the 17" pro is not included in the redesign (they probably weren't ready yet and is being saved for macworld).

Here is also a hopes that the current plastic stays on the market and drops the price more... I know people who want a mac laptop, but really have no use (nor clue how to use) the latest trackpad and power...
 
Ahhh, more whining!

Wow!
With all the information going around and all the ranting about HP and Lenovo can to this, sony can do that, netbooks selling good but Apple does not have them, what about touch screen, how come Apple is the only one to eliminate firewire, no blu-rary yet, etc ,etc etc....

I can only help but wonder - other than the trackpad, how these Aluminum cases are made, and OS X

Is Apple starting to fall behind on innovations and playing catchup?

Or, are we just demanding so much from them that they are releasing unfinished products in REV A, just to quiet the masses. I mean other than one or 2 scant rumors, nothing pointing to a true Oct 14th notebook event. then everyone started demanding one and notices were sent out last minute (considering it was a holiday weekend).

You all think Steve just through out an unfinished product to shut everyone up and the real finished product will be at macworld? I mean a laptop that uses dual video cards at once, a new case, trackpad, etc sounds more macworldish than a November event.

I mean think about it. How much time was spent on the manufactuing process and Steve saying "We don't have time to cover this today" and little details on other things.

Personally, I think this was a "here's the new look and case, and we are ready for what we will be sending out"....

I have a feeling there may be some major updates to firmware and OS X in the coming months that will make these babies cook.

Why else do you think the 17" pro is not included in the redesign (they probably weren't ready yet and is being saved for macworld).

Here is also a hopes that the current plastic stays on the market and drops the price more... I know people who want a mac laptop, but really have no use (nor clue how to use) the latest trackpad and power...

Hahaha, you think Apple really cares about the Macrumors community and how "noisy" it is? They could care less man.

All right you PANSIES! Quit your "log-out" whining and listen up. I'm tired of hearing about "I have to log-out" issue about the graphic processors. I think you ALL have it WRONG anyways! Let me elaborate.... Who the heck runs their graphic sessions in "battery conservation mode"!? I DONT! I don't know about you, but when I start my intense graphic sessions, I'm jacked into the wall. WOW on battery power? Call of Duty on battery? 3GB Photoshop rendering on battery? NO!- I use AC POWER!!! Anyone with any experience knows, you plug-in to the wall to do serious work. Your battery doesn't last but 20mins anyways, so who are they kidding? Apple has taken this whole "conservation" thing a little too far now, and now is robbing us of a possible "SLI" configuration because of their sissy engineers. Allow me....

Apple needs to empower its laptop users with some real power options. When I feel like being a pansy, I use my integrated graphics chip in battery conservation mode. BUT, when I feel like getting down and dirty, let me plug in, REBOOT, and pull as much power from the wall as possible! HOO-RAHHH! Now I'm running blazing fast with BOTH processors enabled simultaneously. Now doesn't that make more sense, and it's APPLE SMART!

STEVE, quit your sissying around and get some engineers with some real balls in there. -RPX353

What do I say to this? I think perhaps there is a reason more macrumors people don't work at Apple....
 
It's probably software issue. As in brand new hardware, and we will add features later.

I would imagine it won't be as different as "connecting" an external monitor, which OSX can be done on the fly (without pressing stupid buttons that windows force its users to do).

Let's collect some facts: First, MacOS X can handle multiple graphics cards (MacPros can have four graphics cards). Second, MacOS X can handle monitors added and removed at any time. Third, the integrated and discrete card _can_ be switched in software, there is no hardware problem - we know this because it can be switched when you log out and log in again.

What Apple hasn't done yet: They haven't written code that allows this switching to happen at arbitrary times. This is not trivial. For example, an application might have a bitmap stored on the graphics card. That bitmap wouldn't be there on the new card if graphics cards are switched. So Apple likely has to write code that moves all resources from one graphics card to the other at the time of the switch. Note entirely trivial. They have to do something in case an application tries to draw while the switch happens.

It can probably be done by first "pretending" that a monitor has been plugged in into the second card in "mirrored" mode, and a few seconds later pretend that the monitor connected to the first card has been removed. It is all just a matter of writing the software. And then there is of course the question whether the average customer reacts in the same way as the average MacRumors reader.
 
How was anyone confused as to the operation of the GPU's to begin with? It was very clear to me that it was either one or the other.
 
Sometimes I really do wonder where all these silly people come from lol!

The whole 2 GPU's thing was not put in any other way as I recall as the way that is true. People seemed to look too far in to it for now. Basically you have two options: 1) use the 9600m GT anytime you are plugged in and/or need the extra boost in graphics, or 2) switch to the 9400 integrated for when you are on the move and want to save an hours worth of battery.

Having to log out to switch really isnt bad is it?!?!it takes like 5 seconds on a mac (well mine anyway!). And I cant think of a correctly used scenario where someone would need to swap between the two instantly.

The thing about using the 2 GPU's at once is just being hopeful at the moment I think....yes it's probably a future possibilty, but i'm sure that it will just be an OS update that will add that. People really do demand alot!

All you need to think is....they updated the macbook pro's graphics to the newer chipset and now you have the BONUS of being able to switch down to save battery. As for the regular macbook, well they simply have a far better graphics option...simple and all positive really
 
How was anyone confused as to the operation of the GPU's to begin with? It was very clear to me that it was either one or the other.

Because it is possible to run both at the same time depending upon hardware configuration. We didn't know which hardware configuration Apple had chosen.
 
Battery display and other strangeness

I just bought a new MBP from an Apple store yesterday and am perplexed at the battery "remaining time" display. While just browsing the web the time remaining jumps around from 5 hours to 4 hours. My Santa Rosa MB never did that. Anyone else seen that with this new one? How about the older MBP?

On a side note, this notebook is VERY well constructed and I am pleased with it. I am however not 100% confident that I made the right choice in going with the new MBP over the MB. I thought I wanted extra screen space but now I am not certain that a larger laptop footprint was worth it.

Another note for those interested. I have noticed that one of the games I use regularly, Hoyle Casino 2009, does not function correctly with the new MBP. There appears to be a driver issue or something similar. The game does not draw the screen correctly and large black boxes appear when you mouse over buttons. There are also other graphics oddities I have noticed.
 
Hahaha, you think Apple really cares about the Macrumors community and how "noisy" it is? They could care less man.

I think they look at it this way (just my opinion):

1. We want to stay in business and have customers, and we have the best product so lets still make products with updates and turn heads.

2. Not matter what we offer, someone will complain. Even if we give them all their wants, new technology will come along in a month or 2 and people will still be unhappy.

That is one of the things I hate about the I/T business. My High-School professor used to say, if you want a job that keeps people happy and you get praises for your work - then Data Processing is not the career to go into.
 
now Steve did say the switch could be made without rebooting. he didn't say anything about not having to log out. silly, sneaky Steve!:D
 
Its the crysis benchmarks that have brought the confusion because in that game a 5? Fps boost is a hell of a lot.
 
Am I the only one that really thinks it's crap that there is no built in DVI ?
I don't want to have to buy an adaptor. one thing I really liked about the 'pro' line was that it was more or less all ready to go out of the box.
 
I just bought a new MBP from an Apple store yesterday and am perplexed at the battery "remaining time" display. While just browsing the web the time remaining jumps around from 5 hours to 4 hours. My Santa Rosa MB never did that. Anyone else seen that with this new one? How about the older MBP?

On a side note, this notebook is VERY well constructed and I am pleased with it. I am however not 100% confident that I made the right choice in going with the new MBP over the MB. I thought I wanted extra screen space but now I am not certain that a larger laptop footprint was worth it.

Another note for those interested. I have noticed that one of the games I use regularly, Hoyle Casino 2009, does not function correctly with the new MBP. There appears to be a driver issue or something similar. The game does not draw the screen correctly and large black boxes appear when you mouse over buttons. There are also other graphics oddities I have noticed.

Have you cycled the battery one time yet?

Usually the battery needs to be completely drained until the laptop powers off, then you need to charge the battery to full power. This educates the battery meter so that it can better predict the amount of time remaining. Until the battery is cycled one time, the meter can be erratic.

As for the graphic issues it is hard to tell. Have you tried seeing if there is a difference between performance mode and power saving mode. The performance mode uses the 9600M GT GPU while the power savings mode uses the 9400M integrated GPU.

It would be interesting to see if that made any difference.
 
Surely this is because OS X has no SLI drivers? Unlike Windows of course, hence why this would work on Vista.

Surely SLI support could/should be added in 10.6?
 
Have you cycled the battery one time yet?

Usually the battery needs to be completely drained until the laptop powers off, then you need to charge the battery to full power. This educates the battery meter so that it can better predict the amount of time remaining. Until the battery is cycled one time, the meter can be erratic.

As for the graphic issues it is hard to tell. Have you tried seeing if there is a difference between performance mode and power saving mode. The performance mode uses the 9600M GT GPU while the power savings mode uses the 9400M integrated GPU.

It would be interesting to see if that made any difference.

I haven't yet cycled/calibrated the battery. I will give that a try but am surprised that it would cause erratic display. It seemed to me that their averaging algorithm needed to be adjusted.

As for the graphics issues, I have tried both the 9400 and 9600 and saw no difference. They both appear to cause the graphics issues I described above.
 
SLI support can't be added.
It's not apple's fault, the 9600M GT doesn't support it.
Only the 9500M G and lower graphics chips can use the geforce boost technology that utilizes both integrated and discrete graphics at the same time for performance.
If apple had picked a lower gpu to make it work the overall performance would still be lower than the 9600 itself.
 
I don't quite get the point in both gpus on the macbook pro! An extra hour on battery!? or so they claim...brilliant...not!
 
Man! The disappointment with this MB / MBP update just keeps growing. Why can't Apple, who has the ultimate control over the design of their products/systems provide us with the same functionality the PC world enjoys??

This update (especially the MB FW/target mode debacle!) is the first real misstep by Apple in a long time...imo.
 
Having two GPU's is an interesting solution to cover both aspects of use. One for general low-power use and the other for the more demanding graphics-intensive folks. I like that Apple (unlike other companies) think more outside the norm.

But seriously, the folks criticizing Apple for not allowing both GPU's to run concurrently just don't seem capable of grasping the big-picture here.

It's these same people that criticize Apple for making laptops that run hot. It will be these same people that will once again raise a stink wondering why their SLI-induced laptop is burning their thighs.

It's a mobile-laptop first people. Get a desktop if you want to run Crysis at full speed.

I'm sure in a few years, the technology will be there to allow notebooks to run at cooler temperatures but it is just not there yet and will not be for the foreseeable future.

But it's okay to dream. I'm sure Apple has some tricks up their sleeve down the road with this configuration. However, I will take a fast and cooler laptop than a burning screamer anytime.

Apple did a great job with these notebooks. They are definitely a class above the rest.
 
Apple needs to retire Steve Jobs and hire a CEO who doesn't attempt to cripple their computers at every possible turn with anorexic thinness, style, missing features and horrible video cards. Enough is enough. Steve needs a rest anyway. Bring back somebody who likes computers. Bring back Woz. :apple: :D

750px-Steve_Wozniak_thumbs_up.jpg

Its funny to see these old Powerbooks with an inverted Apple logo... :eek: :D
 
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