There is some confusion about the 'rules'. MacMerc mentions 7 off, whereas the blurb here at MacRumors they say 'up to 4 always-on, 5 always-off or 8 combination'. I didn't see the actual document before it was removed. If the MacRumors numbers are off that would explain the superfluous 'combination rule'.
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MacMerc: Apple's LCD Dead Pixel Policy Published
- Thread starter patrick0brien
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There is some confusion about the 'rules'. MacMerc mentions 7 off, whereas the blurb here at MacRumors they say 'up to 4 always-on, 5 always-off or 8 combination'. I didn't see the actual document before it was removed. If the MacRumors numbers are off that would explain the superfluous 'combination rule'.
Snowy_River
macrumors 68030
Re: weak pixels
The problem is not always with the transistors in the pixels. I have a PB3400 which has a pixel that sometimes gets stuck red. However, I've found that I can easily fix it by squeezing the border of the screen directly above where the pixel is. There is clearly a weak connection in that area that is causing the problem, but I never minded because it was so easy to fix when it acted up.
The problem is not always with the transistors in the pixels. I have a PB3400 which has a pixel that sometimes gets stuck red. However, I've found that I can easily fix it by squeezing the border of the screen directly above where the pixel is. There is clearly a weak connection in that area that is causing the problem, but I never minded because it was so easy to fix when it acted up.
Snowy_River
macrumors 68030
Actually, robrippin, most cases I've heard of the pixels are DOA. Sometimes they can be revitalized, but sometimes not. It is true that pixels can go out, but I don't think that's really what this document is dealing with...
mxpiazza
macrumors 6502a
rock on, g! when you put it that way, it does make a ton of sense. i just bought a 15" Studio Display off eBay (the newer styled ones, just like the 17", not the crappy graphite LCDs), and I took it to MicroCenter to test it out (it's for my new G5... 😀 ) and was pleasantly surprised to see that it had absolutely no dead or stuck pixels. If there were, i'd understand, especially putting it the way you did... but when some people are dropping just as much on a top-end LCD as they are on their computer, they expect a certain level or perfection, and i can understand that as well...
Snowy_River
macrumors 68030
Okay, so you want Apple to have a policy of perfection?!? Are you willing to pay for that? Your $3k laptop will suddenly cost you more like $6k to support that kind of tolerance. It's a general rule that the tighter the tolerance, the more it costs, and this is certainly no exception. Apple clearly already has higher standards than much (though perhaps not all) of the rest of the industry, so we should be happy about that, not griping that they aren't shooting for an almost impossible perfection...
I know for a fact that that's not true. I had to order a laptop from Dell for my supervisor at one point, and he was quite upset by the fact that it had a number of stuck pixels (four, IIRC). I had to spend quite a bit of time on the phone, and finally ended up returning it to get a different model because that was the only way they were going to accept the return. (And, FWIW, yes, my supervisor waited a month before deciding he couldn't stand the stuck pixels...)
I find this fancy LCD technology to be too risky. I'll stick with the old fat space hogging monitor. It would drive me insane if I had these dead or stuck pixels. I would feel ripped off it were to happen to me. I would be angry at ever buying the LCD every time I use my mac.
Snowy,
You got screwed man. You should call Dell and complain. I used to work for Dell. That is (at least it was 8 months ago) their policy.
(edit: you might also want to specify whether or not the 4 stuck pixels were on or off or a mix)
You got screwed man. You should call Dell and complain. I used to work for Dell. That is (at least it was 8 months ago) their policy.
(edit: you might also want to specify whether or not the 4 stuck pixels were on or off or a mix)
Ummm... Sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. There is such thing as a 40-50" LCD. Have a look at the Nec/Mitsubishi Multisync 4000 - a 40" LCD Display which is far sharper than a plasma.... there are lots more out there 😀
shareware stuck pixel offer??
what would be a great addition to that policy, is some kind of above finder level application where you can just mouse click exactly where a stuck pixel is, you tell it what color is stuck, then the software will kill the suck lcd.
I have a stuck blue to the left of center on my pb g4. watching dvds sucks. a simple shareware app like this i'd pay $20-30 for, just because it is so useful. wish i could program!i think partially dead pixels are A LOT more bearable then stuck on pixels.
anyone????
what would be a great addition to that policy, is some kind of above finder level application where you can just mouse click exactly where a stuck pixel is, you tell it what color is stuck, then the software will kill the suck lcd.
I have a stuck blue to the left of center on my pb g4. watching dvds sucks. a simple shareware app like this i'd pay $20-30 for, just because it is so useful. wish i could program!i think partially dead pixels are A LOT more bearable then stuck on pixels.
anyone????
CrackedButter
macrumors 68040
Mac'em X
macrumors member
Massaging pixels
I own a Mac that had a bad pixel. I'd read about the "massaging" trick, and gave it a try every now and then, gently rubbing the bad pixel. No effect.
Then I tried the "borders" trick. Go straight up from the bad pixel and rub the border of the screen. Then go down and rub the bottom border. Then do the same for left and right.
I know it won't work for every case, but on my machine it brough the dead pixel to life, and all has been well since.
I understand that all manufacturers allow some number of bad pixels, and know that doing otherwise would raise the cost of our machines. But I hate the "crap shoot" aspect of it, and understand buyers' anger completely.
I saw a man in an Apple store last year who was livid over a very visible stuck pixel on his new 17" iMac. He was a new switcher from Windows, and couldn't believe that the price of an iMac didn't guarantee a perfect screen. The Apple Store manager only told him over and over that policy did not allow them to accept a return for that defect.
I should have stepped in and told him what the manager should have been telling him: that it's not an Apple-only issue, and he'd be taking the same chances with other brands. But whatever the explanations and reasonings, there's no quelling a buyer who's regretting a $2,000 purchase.
I was very worried over pixels when I bought my new PB. I lucked out on the crap shoot, and got a perfect screen. But next time? I'll have to roll the dice all over again...
I own a Mac that had a bad pixel. I'd read about the "massaging" trick, and gave it a try every now and then, gently rubbing the bad pixel. No effect.
Then I tried the "borders" trick. Go straight up from the bad pixel and rub the border of the screen. Then go down and rub the bottom border. Then do the same for left and right.
I know it won't work for every case, but on my machine it brough the dead pixel to life, and all has been well since.
I understand that all manufacturers allow some number of bad pixels, and know that doing otherwise would raise the cost of our machines. But I hate the "crap shoot" aspect of it, and understand buyers' anger completely.
I saw a man in an Apple store last year who was livid over a very visible stuck pixel on his new 17" iMac. He was a new switcher from Windows, and couldn't believe that the price of an iMac didn't guarantee a perfect screen. The Apple Store manager only told him over and over that policy did not allow them to accept a return for that defect.
I should have stepped in and told him what the manager should have been telling him: that it's not an Apple-only issue, and he'd be taking the same chances with other brands. But whatever the explanations and reasonings, there's no quelling a buyer who's regretting a $2,000 purchase.
I was very worried over pixels when I bought my new PB. I lucked out on the crap shoot, and got a perfect screen. But next time? I'll have to roll the dice all over again...
Does anyone know if the OLED displays that should be out in the next 1-2 years will have these kinds of problems?
AidenShaw
macrumors P6
So a few dozen bad transistors in a PPC970 should be OK?
By this logic, one shouldn't expect microprocessors to work perfectly - with many 10s of millions of transisters, a few dozen bad ones shouldn't matter, right?
I'll take this PB - it can't subtract, but it can add and multiply just fine!
Not.
By this logic, one shouldn't expect microprocessors to work perfectly - with many 10s of millions of transisters, a few dozen bad ones shouldn't matter, right?
I'll take this PB - it can't subtract, but it can add and multiply just fine!
Not.
That is partly correct since if that guy has gone to Circuit City for example and bought his PC and then took it back with no reason they would accept it. No restocking no excuses. I think BB is the same. With Apple you really cannot return it. Since they charge 10% restocking fee a 2000$ can easily become 2200$ if you dont want the defective screen and none tells you that the other panel won't have the same problem. I guess this is why you have resellers. But resellers do not offer Students discounts and you cannot customise your purchase. I think it is sad that Apple does not have some period of returns without restocking fees and without needing excuses.
SiliconAddict
macrumors 603
That's not the point. Even if its only .00001% defective if I end up watching a movie or editing a home video or whatever and have to have a glairing dot in my screen this is unacceptable. Even more unacceptable if Id pay for a premium laptop like a 17er. Yah is only my opinion but I still think there are a lot of people out there that have to agree with me. A million or a billion pixels. If it can be singled out by the human eye as a flaw its a problem. Now if we were talking hard drives where one or 2 sectors couldnt be written to (Which is usually the first signs of a drive going bad but humor me.) no one would make a fuss over it because you can't see those bad sectors.
I see that Apple Legal has stepped in so the page is no longer posted. For those who missed it, here's a recap:
The document contained testing and customer-interaction guidelines for Apple support people, about handling LCD pixels that are always on ("bright") or always off ("dark").
The "rules" we are talking about concern how many "subpixel anomalies" are acceptable vs. not acceptable. A "subpixel" is the red or green or blue pixel at a particular screen coordinate. When the number of subpixel anomalies is acceptable, the customer is told that the LCD is within specifications and no repair is necessary. Otherwise, the LCD should be replaced.
The rules in the document cover 17" LCDs only and are as follows: An 17" LCD has an acceptable number of subpixel anomalies when the number of bright pixels is 4 or less, the number of dark pixels is 6 or less, and the total of both is 8 or less. Therefore, it is to be replaced if the number of bright pixels is 5 or more, the number of dark pixels is 7 or more, or the total of both is 9 or more.
Since the document was not intended for customers, it does not constitute a promise by Apple to adhere to the guidelines. Has anybody had experience to show that they do indeed follow these guidelines?
The document contained testing and customer-interaction guidelines for Apple support people, about handling LCD pixels that are always on ("bright") or always off ("dark").
The "rules" we are talking about concern how many "subpixel anomalies" are acceptable vs. not acceptable. A "subpixel" is the red or green or blue pixel at a particular screen coordinate. When the number of subpixel anomalies is acceptable, the customer is told that the LCD is within specifications and no repair is necessary. Otherwise, the LCD should be replaced.
The rules in the document cover 17" LCDs only and are as follows: An 17" LCD has an acceptable number of subpixel anomalies when the number of bright pixels is 4 or less, the number of dark pixels is 6 or less, and the total of both is 8 or less. Therefore, it is to be replaced if the number of bright pixels is 5 or more, the number of dark pixels is 7 or more, or the total of both is 9 or more.
Since the document was not intended for customers, it does not constitute a promise by Apple to adhere to the guidelines. Has anybody had experience to show that they do indeed follow these guidelines?
Most computer retail stores and manufacturers have deal pixel policies. Dead pixels are common, and if everyone started returning monitors for 1 dead pixel there would be no one selling LCDs.... they'd be too damn expensive.
Sometimes it is better to buy an LCD device from a retail store because retail stores may have a better deal pixel policy then a manufacturer.
For example, CompUSA will replace your LCD if you have 3 or more dead pixels. Apple will only do it if you have 5. CompUSA may be staffed with idiots, however Apple laptops costs the same there.... so why not buy one from CompUSA?
Sometimes it is better to buy an LCD device from a retail store because retail stores may have a better deal pixel policy then a manufacturer.
For example, CompUSA will replace your LCD if you have 3 or more dead pixels. Apple will only do it if you have 5. CompUSA may be staffed with idiots, however Apple laptops costs the same there.... so why not buy one from CompUSA?
It is -normal- for an LCD to have 1 or 2 deal pixels... especially if they are on a laptop (laptops get moved and knocked around frequently) It is not normal to have a handful of them.
If deal pixels bug you that much then don't buy LCD devices. Dead pixels are common and just about -every- hardware manufacturer and retailer has a deal pixel policy which says you need anywhere from 3 to 8 dead pixels in order to warrant a replacement.
And as for the harddrives...
It is not normal to have unwritable sectors on a harddrive that is functioning properly. Just because a single pixel crapped out on your PowerBooks display does not mean that your display is on the brink of failure. It simply means you have small dot on your screen that you will eventually not notice.
Now, I'm sure we could all protest pixel imperfection and force manufacturers to replace an LCD for every dead pixel, or simply start using plasma... however I'm fairly sure laptops would skyrocket to over 5000 dollars.
So... just deal with it. It's not the end of the world. Nothing is perfect in life.
Subpixels
They are side by side on my Samsung LCD and all others I am aware of. See picture I took. The red/green/blue bars look like gray with the naked eye.
They are side by side on my Samsung LCD and all others I am aware of. See picture I took. The red/green/blue bars look like gray with the naked eye.
Aqua OS X-
To quote Elvis Costello "What can we do? What, can we do, with all this useless beauty? All this useless beauty!"
Shall we then buy laptops with CRT's?
I've got a dark pixel right in the middle of my iBook that showed up 14 days after it arrived. I've had it for 9 months now and it drives me up the wall. I start to forget about it and then I think i've added an ' or a . or a , accidentaly. wtf? It drives me effing nuts.
In response to your hard drive comment. If you run disk first aid and it finds a bad block, it will mark it as unuseable and you will not be affected by it. You will lose data stored on the bad blocks, but you will not have to worry about them again. It will essentially become invisible. When you run apple's monitor diagnostic/calibration program the pixel very clearly shows up (just as it did before you ran the program) as bad, but does not become invisible.
Apple's tolerance for hard drive replacement under warranty is 4, yes count them, 4 bad blocks. 4 entities that can be made to not affect your life in anyway whatsoever by running a utility that comes with the computer.
Correct me if I am wrong, but 4 bad blocks out of a 30gig HD is a lower percentage that 8 out of a 12.1 in. LCD. Yes? And do I need to repeat the invisible vs. visible thing?
To quote Elvis Costello "What can we do? What, can we do, with all this useless beauty? All this useless beauty!"
Shall we then buy laptops with CRT's?
I've got a dark pixel right in the middle of my iBook that showed up 14 days after it arrived. I've had it for 9 months now and it drives me up the wall. I start to forget about it and then I think i've added an ' or a . or a , accidentaly. wtf? It drives me effing nuts.
In response to your hard drive comment. If you run disk first aid and it finds a bad block, it will mark it as unuseable and you will not be affected by it. You will lose data stored on the bad blocks, but you will not have to worry about them again. It will essentially become invisible. When you run apple's monitor diagnostic/calibration program the pixel very clearly shows up (just as it did before you ran the program) as bad, but does not become invisible.
Apple's tolerance for hard drive replacement under warranty is 4, yes count them, 4 bad blocks. 4 entities that can be made to not affect your life in anyway whatsoever by running a utility that comes with the computer.
Correct me if I am wrong, but 4 bad blocks out of a 30gig HD is a lower percentage that 8 out of a 12.1 in. LCD. Yes? And do I need to repeat the invisible vs. visible thing?
