Kal Madda
macrumors 601
I love the icons in menu items, looks so much better. And it’s faster to find stuff cause I just look for the symbol and don’t have to read every line of text…
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macOS Tahoe: A Pattern of Poor Usability and Design Regression
- Thread starter Deuce2
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Kal Madda
macrumors 601
Exactly. And I especially wonder since there were so many similar “low visibility” elements in older versions of macOS that I never saw people saying were “illegible” before… 🧐
Kal Madda
macrumors 601
Apple shouldn’t be basing every design decision based off of accessibility for those with vision issues. That is exactly why accessibility settings exist. Furthermore, if Apple never changed UI aesthetic, the OS would grow stale and would cease to be competitive at some point. Most average users seem to like UI aesthetic to move forward, not just stay the same and stale. Even in this very forum, there were long threads about how stale the flat design of iOS 7 and beyond had become, and many people in this forum wanted a new aesthetic. So the idea that UI should never change is a very bad one. Things improve over time, design tastes change, etc. And so every major platform moves with those changes. And Liquid Glass improves my workflow and makes more of my designs visible, and also is less distracting when I am just trying to focus on the design I’m working on and not the toolbars… Yet when I need the toolbars, they are still perfectly visible. The UI feels like it’s working with me and not getting into my way. It’s only your opinion that the new design “does nothing to actually improve the overall experience”, and others such as myself disagree with you…
And there’s no evidence that they aren’t… This is largely a subjective matter… I find that it improves user interactivity in my workflow…
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FINALLY! Someone who gets it! THANK YOU FROM MY HEART!
TumbleDryer
macrumors 603
I've said it quite a few times in various threads. 👍
fisherking
macrumors G5
it's hysterical how the same people dominate these threads, complain, then congratulate each other for their similar observations; takes up about 80% of the thread (to be fair, a couple of us do the same from an opposing point-of-view).
would be great if we all calmed down, and/or just used the emojis to support (or disagree with) each other. there's SO much redundant content 🤯
TumbleDryer
macrumors 603
Which folder is which?
No doubt your responses will be 'make the windows larger' which just illustrates the point about usability regression and how you keep missing it.
Attachments
fisherking
macrumors G5
...because there can only be your point-of-view? no one (on any side of these 'discussions') has to prove anything to anyone; we're all entitled to our viewpoints, our observations, our opinions. and our experiences are all vaild.
still, we go round-&-round (i own my part in this, hope you do as well). 🤷
TumbleDryer
macrumors 603
What is hysterical to a great many of us but not to some is how the same people keep responding to peoples evidence of regression, bugs and issues with nothing but 'I don't have that issue' and despite being asked quite a few times by various people to explain how it doesn't affect them or why LiquidGlass makes things better for them (as they claim) they have offered nothing but 'its nice' or 'its modern' none of which relate to usability. So there is plenty of content here from people that keep missing/and or confusing the point of other peoples posts. It gets explained to them but they counter with the same comments offering no substance to the discussion - that's why we go 'round and round'.
'Foldername' / 'Fol...'
Which is more useful?
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Kal Madda
macrumors 601
We’re back on the old, tired title bar argument again? It’s very simple, don’t use such an overly long name for a folder (acronyms/abbreviations are a wonderful invention), or make the window larger. If folder names are that long, they’ll be truncated in their parent folders when you’re navigating to them as well, and that’s been the case for decades. Unless you use some list view setup, which I don’t think most people use. It just makes much more sense to use short names for folders… And folders are further differentiated by their content. The odds of most people regularly creating folders with very long duplicate names seems very low…
It hasn’t been a “usability regression” for me, and has actually been the exact opposite… 🤷🏼♂️
Kal Madda
macrumors 601
No “evidence” of “regression” has been shared…. Only things people interpret as regression in their opinion. Many things being claimed as evidence of “regression” others find to either not affect anything, or even be beneficial in other ways. Take, for example, the title bar thing, it also means it’s easier and more convenient to change the name of a file, since one can edit it right there in the toolbar. I like that design better. Plus you don’t have all the wasted extra space for just a title bar…
Furthermore, we have repeatedly talked about the things we find better with the new design. It’s just that such discussion is drowned out by the naysayers. I even started a thread for that, and people had hardly begun discussion in there before the naysayers overran it and it devolved as so many threads in this forum. The problem is it’s near impossible to have such discussion in this environment where anyone with a positive opinion is shouted down and treated as if they’re perspective is “objectively wrong” or that they’re “just an Apple iShill” (copyright pending)… 🤦🏼♂️
Different people have different opinions and perspectives. They’re equally valid. There is no one “correct” opinion or perspective about subjective matters like this…
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svenmany
macrumors 68030
Not "some" people - really mostly just two people.
Kal Madda
macrumors 601
in other words “Think Different”…. Unless it disagrees with the narrative of mostly a handful of individuals on the other side of the issue in these threads who have been consistently carrying that side…
And is that a faulty appeal to “majority” I see there? 🤔
And apparently positive perspectives or opinions aren’t considered equally valid? I have had many great conversations with people on your side of the debate who have negative opinions/perspectives, but recognize that their opinions/perspectives are just that, and respect other perspectives/opinions. When both sides of a conversation can respect alternative perspectives/opinions, constructive discussion can be had, and we can better understand other viewpoints than our own, even if we disagree with them. But when alternative perspectives/opinions are not respected, and some try to claim their perspective/opinions are the only “correct” ones, constructive discussion becomes essentially impossible…
fisherking
macrumors G5
am happy to own my behavior, and i believe we are all entitled to our perspective. it's sad that others here can't allow for that 😔
svenmany
macrumors 68030
This is not directed at you...I just wish there was some throttling of one particular perspective. It's a bit overwhelming.
I take short breaks for work sometimes (like right now) to make short posts. But, the level of engagement required to counter the onslaught of one user's perspective makes it feel futile.
TumbleDryer
macrumors 603
So I should just rename tens of thousands of files that would break hundreds of thousands of links within documents?
They are named as they are as they adhere to a strict naming convention used by various organisations so no they cant be renamed but again the point is missed - and yes I use list view.
Going back to being able to edit the title in the title bar I may be wrong but Im pretty sure you could do that pre Tahoe? I however can NOT do it in Tahoe?
fisherking
macrumors G5
so, the perspective you don't personally agree with should be 'throttled'? what if i feel the same way? hmmm...
what if everyone toned it down, instead of us all trying to convince the other point-of-view that we're right and they're wrong?
it's a two-way street, and this won't get better unless everyone chooses to do better. wondering if that's possible...
TumbleDryer
macrumors 603
It's not about being right or wrong. Its about understanding that other peoples issues with Tahoe/LiquidGlass are a thing and just because they don't affect you in any meaningful way doesn't mean you have to respond with 'it doesn't affect me' because that offers no substance to the discussion. If it doesn't affect you really there no need to comment but look through this thread for example and look at the responses to people highlighting the issues they have. That's the '80%' of redundant content you should be referring to.
Kal Madda
macrumors 601
Fair, though I still don’t think it’s the end of the world. Maybe they could add a setting for it? Or perhaps there’s some other compromise.
If that ability did exist pre-Tahoe, I never figured out how to use it. I had to use the File option in the Menu Bar to rename stuff, which meant moving my cursor further outside of the app window. But with it right there within the toolbar, it just feels so much simpler to me. I think they added this to the iPad version of apps like Pages in iPadOS 17, and I found it to be a huge improvement over the previous setup. So having it now on macOS feels more efficient to me. But I guess I don’t use many folders with long names, so I don’t really tend to encounter any downsides with that, and just the plus of faster name changes. But like I said, perhaps there’s a compromise somewhere to be had. 👍🏻
Apple Knowledge Navigator
macrumors 601
Yes. Because clearly you, not Tahoe, are the problem.
You've been using your computer incorrectly for years.
TumbleDryer
macrumors 603
Kal Madda
macrumors 601
And I have never said others don’t encounter legitimate bugs, or that it’s not legitimate for others to encounter things they find negatively affects their use. To some degree, I think it’s basically unavoidable with any change, you’re going to have some who are impacted because they have to acclimate and get used to the new design. That’s understandable. I take no issue with that, and have had plenty of profitable discussions with others with those kinds of opinions on this…
What I do take issue with is when people try to claim their opinion is the only “correct” one, or is “objective fact” when it isn’t… When people claim “we’ve shared “evidence” that x thing is a “bad design”…”. Look, I don’t doubt that people who say that they encounter problems are encountering problems, at least not in most cases. But when you try to claim that your experience or opinion about something “proves” something, I think that is where the problem lies. Some seem to repeatedly try to position their opinion or perspective as more than that. And then I and others do push back and say that this is not universal truth and is only an individual’s perspective/opinion.
Apple Knowledge Navigator
macrumors 601
Then this must work both work ways.
If someone who shares your views is suggesting that Tahoe is an improvement, then one need to explain why. Saying “I don’t have that issue / Looks fine to me” is not a useful basis for a discussion, if you’re trying to convince others that you feel strongly about your opinion.
fisherking
macrumors G5
right, so, once again, it's 'not about being right or wrong'... but you're right 🙄
i am not suggesting that anyone who doesn't like tahoe/liquid glass is somehow wrong, am only saying there are others who like the new OS..
look at your own recent posts; you're doing the exact same thing, making us both a part of that redundant '80%'. perhaps the only difference here is... i own my part in it.
a forum is a place for discussion, allowing for different points-of-view. i see that as a good thing.
Kal Madda
macrumors 601
If anything, there is a primarily negative perspective in this thread. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing by the way, though I think it’s partly because people on my side of the issue don’t feel free to speak there opinion in this environment without getting dogpiled. Heck, I tried to even start another thread just for discussion about the benefits of Liquid Glass and Tahoe, and what people liked about the new update, and that just got bogged down by naysayers and devolved into a thread where nobody could speak their positive opinion without being shouted down and laughed at. So if you think a positive perspective is overwhelming to you in here, imagine how it feels from the perspective of those like me who are on my side of the debate and aren’t even allowed to be left alone in a thread about the things we like? And especially combine that with the constant either outright or implied personal attacks leveled at individuals like myself on this side of the discussion…
I respect your opinion, and when I engage with others comments here, I don’t wish to “discredit” their position, but to explain or share my perspective of the topic at hand. Me stating my opinion/perspective doesn’t discredit another’s… Nor does stating others’ opinions and perspectives are that and not “objective facts”…
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