MacPro 5.1 & high capacity hard drives

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by JM-Prod, May 9, 2016.

  1. JM-Prod macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2011
    #1
    I've run out of internal storage on my MacPro 5.1. And although I have a 24 bay NAS in the background, I need more high speed storage.

    I would think my cheapest option would be to upgrade to larger disks, as I currently run 4x2TB in Raid0.

    Does anyone have experience running larger disk, such as 4x6TB in Raid0 on a Mac Pro 5.1?
     
  2. ZombiePhysicist, May 9, 2016
    Last edited: May 9, 2016

    ZombiePhysicist macrumors 6502

    ZombiePhysicist

    Joined:
    May 22, 2014
    #2
    You can get up to 10TB drives for around $720 right now:

    http://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Enterprise-Capacity-200RPM-ST10000NM0016/dp/B01DAI6JUS?ie=UTF8&keywords=10tb hard drive&qid=1462821202&ref_=sr_1_5&sr=8-5

    Or 8TB drives go for just over $200:

    http://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Archi...qid=1462821259&sr=8-1&keywords=8TB+hard+drive

    I'm using the 8TB of the above in my 5,1 with no problems.

    I tried using the HGST 10TB drive (https://www.pcnation.com/web/detail...00-10-Tb-3-5-Inch-Internal-Hard-Drive-0F27452), and for some reason it won't spin up inside the 5,1 but will work on an external USB drive bay. Not sure if it's a matter of juice or what.
     
  3. h9826790 macrumors 604

    h9826790

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2014
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    #3
    4x6 should not be a problem at all. I think as long as a single 6T works, 4x6T also works.

    And I can 100% sure this WD Red 6T works in the 5,1.

    WDC WD60EFRX-68MYMN1
    Screen Shot 2016-05-10 at 05.25.27.jpg
    The mounting holes are standard, and the size can fit inside the Mac Pro (some large size HDD may be thicker and have different mounting holes).
    IMG_3175.jpg
     
  4. ZombiePhysicist macrumors 6502

    ZombiePhysicist

    Joined:
    May 22, 2014
    #4
    Oh that's a good point. The mounting holes on the 8TB are different and I bought new sleds from OWC to mount it.
     
  5. JM-Prod thread starter macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2011
    #5
    Should I go for Seagate or WesternDigital? I'm probably going for 6TB disks.
     
  6. h9826790 macrumors 604

    h9826790

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2014
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    #6
    Both brands work well for me in the last 10 years, but I only suggest the WD Red 6T simply because I own this HDD now, and I 100% sure it works in the 5,1 (both physically, and electronically).
     
  7. ZombiePhysicist macrumors 6502

    ZombiePhysicist

    Joined:
    May 22, 2014
    #7
  8. Wingston, May 23, 2016
    Last edited: May 23, 2016

    Wingston macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    May 2, 2010
    Location:
    Southend on Sea, Essex, UK
    #8
    Hi - I have been looking at the OWC sleds but they seem to be for the Nehalem and Westmere models only. I have Xeon though I am not sure what difference it makes. OWC do emphasise that the sleds are for the Nehalem and Westmere models ONLY. Anyone know how I can fit larger drives into a 6 core 3.46 Xeon?

    Checked with OWC - not suitable for my machine :-(
     
  9. Silencio macrumors 68020

    Silencio

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    Location:
    NYC
    #9
    The sleds should work in any Mac Pro Early 2009, Mid-2010, or Mid-2012 system. There are no physical differences in the drive slots / sleds between those three versions.
     
  10. nigelbb macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2012
    #10
    I am using a Seagate Archive 8TB drive in my 2008 Mac Pro 3,1. Two of the screw holes match up & a small strip of gaffer tape secures the disk. I did consider drilling some new holes but the gaffer tape solution works well.
     
  11. macpro52 macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    #11

    I just bought 4 HGST Ultrastar He10 HUH721010ALE600 10 TB drives
    and none are recognized internally on my Mac Pro 5,2. All were recognized and erased with an external drive dock. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01E80N2E8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Any idea what the problem might be? Not supported?
     
  12. ZombiePhysicist macrumors 6502

    ZombiePhysicist

    Joined:
    May 22, 2014
    #12
    I had the same problem. Returned it and got the 10TB seagate with no problems. Have no idea what the issue is.
     
  13. JHolmes14 macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2017
    #13
    In 2015 I purchased an HGST He8 drive, which I preferred on various grounds (reliability, efficiency) to the other 8TB options for an internal data drive in an Early 2009 Mac Pro (4,1). I added a pair of cheaper Seagate Archive 8 TB drives as external cloning drives for backup, one kept off site.

    The He8 drive was perfectly consistent in not mounting during any Restart, except when using Snow Leopard. Every later version of OS X resulted in a non-mount. During every cold start, however, the drive always mounts, so it's usable, just a pain. OWC tech support claimed to not be aware of this issue (and still seems unaware of it two years later). Hitachi Tech Support said that there was a newer F/W version but that it could only be installed in a Windows machine with an unusual, high-end graphic card in it (very odd), and I would have to erase the 4 TB or so worth of data I'd already copied to it in the process. So no practical way of improving the situation.

    Now, in Sept. of 2017, I'm again in need of more space and am opting to replace an internal 3TB drive with an HGST He10 drive. So I pre-emptively contacted HGST Tech Support to verify that there would be no more monkey business with one of the newer He drives. (the He12 drives are still selling for around $700 but the He10 is available for as little as $350) I was assured that they would work fine in a Mac.

    Lo and behold, the new drive will not mount inside the Mac Pro under any circumstance -- not after being formatted externally in a Voyager Q drive dock connected via USB 3 to an add-in PCI card, not after a Restart and not after a cold start. It won't even mount this time after restarting into Snow Leopard, even though the He 8 manages that just fine.

    It really looks like Hitachi doesn't care about Mac compatibility. Clearly there is some kind of conflict(s) between their firmware for the last two years' worth of models and the more recent version of OS X, if not all versions now. Things are getting worse instead of better. Two prior posts in this discussion have confirmed that the HGST He10 drives won't mount, five of them no less, in at least some Mac Pros (5,1 I think it was). I had even tried a second copy of the drive from OWC, to no avail. This is not some kind of issue with defective hardware. It's a firmware incompatibility issue. Thank you for pointing out that the 10 TB Seagate non-Helium drive (they have at least 4 basic 10TB types at the moment) ST10000NM0016 will work in your Mac Pro. I am pretty sure that their ST10000NM0086 helium drive will also and I would prefer that one.

    Both of them are relatively loud at idle, rated at 2.8 bels instead of 2.1 or so. The He is rated at 2.5 million hours, versus 2 for the other one, and it's also considerably lighter in weight. And it's a little cheaper at OWC at least. The HGST drives have been the champions of reliability in recent years, if the BackBlaze data are correct, but it's sketchy data and individual model variations are large, so these Seagate's may be fine.

    I'm afraid that it may even prove to be a mistake to accept the HGST drive as an external backup mechanism inasmuch as it could turn out that it also fails to mount when used in an external pluggable drive enclosure for JBOD use with a future Mac Pro (in case that turns out to make sense later on). Apple has announced that they've started from scratch re-designing the next-gen Mac Pro to replace the black cylinder, owing to issues with heat which they didn't correctly guess. It is due out either in 2018 or 2019. I assume it too will lack internal drive bays and will require me to house multiple SATA HDDs in something like a Pegasus box, where I would not use any form of RAID (rather Just a Bunch Of Drives).
     
  14. AndreeOnline macrumors 6502

    AndreeOnline

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2014
    Location:
    Zürich
    #14
    I'm also running a 6TB+6TB Raid 0 in my Mac Pro. I've been using WD Red series for a while and went with those this time around too.

    Interestingly, the cheapest way to buy the drives was via the external MyBook 12TB Raid ($450 for 12TB and case):

    MyBook_Duo.jpg I'
    This external case is being replaced with a new model so you can find it for cheap every now and then. And the nice thing is that I could put my previous 3TB drives into this case and ended up with 12TB internal and 6TB external. The case is nice looking too (admittedly subjective) as far as these types of enclosures go.
     
  15. h9826790, Sep 8, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017

    h9826790 macrumors 604

    h9826790

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2014
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    #15
    I found this as well. It doesn't make any sense that the external HDD is more expensive than the internal one. However, this is the fact. The only down side is once we open up the external HDD case, we lost the warranty straight away.

    Correction: I want to say "cheaper" but not "more expensive".
     
  16. AndreeOnline macrumors 6502

    AndreeOnline

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2014
    Location:
    Zürich
    #16
    Well, the external case with two WD Red drives is quite a bit CHEAPER than just the drives. But I think that is what you meant to write.

    I don't think so. The case is clearly built with the intention of the user swapping the drives at some point. It's one push-click to open it up and then it's a question of removing a simple protection cover and just pull the drives out by the handles that are there for that purpose. There is no fiddling or removing glued on components involved....

    All in all, a very nice case actually.
     
  17. JHolmes14, Sep 8, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017

    JHolmes14 macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2017
    #17
    It looks like a reviewer on Amazon has successfully tracked down the cause of the no-mount issue with the He10 drives (some versions only). Refer to this HGST page to learn about a feature which was added which enables drives to be remotely powered down, rather than unplugged, when a problem is discovered in a server farm: The "Power Disable Feature" "...a new industry standard feature defined for both SATA and SAS devices."

    "If you plug a new SATA HDD with this feature into a legacy chassis or enclosure, the drive may not spin up!"

    Note that the Model numbers with and without this feature are the same, but the Part numbers are different! The drive I have has a part number not shown in this document, so it's even more complicated than indicated. I have Model # HUH721010ALE604. And Part # 0F27473 (ZeroF...). The article shows that Model number having four part numbers:
    0F27605
    0F27608
    0F27453
    0F27603

    https://www.hgst.com/sites/default/files/resources/HGST-Power-Disable-Pin-TB.pdf

    Legacy SATA power connectors have power on Pin #3 and they will simply never spin up on account of it. Some models of the He10 omit this new feature, but future drives will all have it. In some cases, the power going to the drive can be changed, including by using a special cable which disconnects the power to pin #3, but in a Mac Pro, I assume that's impossible, as the power is provided not from a power cable which can be bypassed, but directly from the motherboard plugs to which the drive connects when you slide in the sled.

    Here is the Amazon review: (It's the only 4-star review)

    https://www.amazon.com/HGST-Ultrast..._only_reviews&pageNumber=1#reviews-filter-bar

    Note that an HGST/WD tech support person was unaware of this issue and assured me that their drives would work in a Mac, period. (I mentioned my model of Mac Pro, so one could infer that it was being claimed that it would work in at least those machines, not all Macs, obviously.)

    I'm going to call OWC Tech Support and talk with them about this, as it is a threat for other drives as well. They don't sell any HGST He10's currently, but they do sell four models of Seagate 10TB drives including the one mentioned in a post above (works) and three others, one of which is a helium-filled model which I would prefer.

    Later: The owners manual for the two models of Seagate helium-filled 10TB drives show that Pin 3 is for 3 volt power, which strongly suggests that Seagate has not added the Power Disable Feature to these two drives. They are also described as SATA 3.0 and the feature supposedly appeared in SATA 3.3. Also, OWC claims they work in essentially all Mac Pros, if not all of them. They are going to run a test for me in a 4,1 just to make sure. In the past their testing has omitted a test to see whether a given drive will mount from a Restart. I suspect they will work fine (and I recall that others above have already found that they do). One thing I'm wary about is listening to the idling drive all day long when it runs at 30 dB instead of about 20 dB as the HGST drives do. Otherwise they should be just fine. Their reliability is probably very similarly good. A few Seagate models spoiled Seagate's reputation for driver reliability a couple of years ago but that seems to have been limited to a couple of models. HGST has been the reliability star in recent years.

    I did find two vendors who sell HGST He10's which are not Power Disable Feature-included types, at about $500 each. It wasn't easy to find them and they may be the only vendors who are not selling the ones which don't mount in older machines. Some vendors don't mention the feature. Also note: the vendor in Florida that I bought mine from (lowest price, about $355, via Amazon) sold me what turns out to be an OEM part, and which is NOT warranted by HGST and carries a 2-year warranty from the seller only. That's probably the reason that my drive's Part # is not among those shown in the PDF on HGST's site. It also has a completely different label on it. Special OEM part number. Burned twice by not reading the fine print carefully enough. But it will be fine as an external backup drive for cloning with SuperDuper.
     
  18. nigelbb macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2012
    #18
    It's quite a frequent occurrence that a drive in an external enclosure is cheaper than a bare drive although cracking open a sealed plastic case to extract a single drive is more destructive than swapping out the drives in the WD MyBook 12TB Raid. It looks like the pricing on the WD MyBook 12TB Raid in the UK is around the same price as 2 x 6TB WD Red bare drives.
     
  19. AndreeOnline macrumors 6502

    AndreeOnline

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2014
    Location:
    Zürich
    #19
    I'm seeing a lot of movement in the price of this product. I bought mine for 453 CHF (with two drives) when one bare 6TB would have cost me over 300 CHF (CHF essentially equals USD). Now it costs just above 600 CHF — similar to how you describe pricing in the UK.

    But WD has released the follow-up product to MyBook Duo, so it's quite possible the one I bought will be on sale soon again to clear out the inventory.

    The one I bought is has three USB A and the newer one has one USB C and two USB A, plus the new WD design.

    Here is an image showing the flip up plastic cover and the tool less slide out drive swap:

    444603-western-digital-my-book-duo-8tb.jpg
     
  20. JHolmes14 macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2017
    #21
    The source of the trouble is explained, for the most part, in this HGST document from July, 2016 (or at least that's when it was last revised).

    https://www.hgst.com/sites/default/files/resources/HGST-Power-Disable-Pin-TB.pdf

    We would expect that a long model number from HGST would tell all about the actual part, but no. One must know both the model number AND the part number. Whether a given drive has the "Power Disable Feature" (i.e. requires no or low voltage on SATA Pin 3 to spin up, e.g. 0.7 volts will do, but the normal 3 volts will not) depends on the part number.

    In the linked PDF article, they give the part numbers for the He 10 drives but not for the newer He 12's, and my one attempt at finding the info for the 12's on their site failed to turn anything up. Beware that some part numbers also designate a particular mechanism as being an OEM class, which carries no warranty at all from HGST and only a 2-year warranty from the vendor. That's what I got when I bought an He10 for $355 from a shop in Florida. I got what I paid for. The only two vendors which I could identify with certainty offering the non-Power Disable type He 10's from HGST were selling them for around $500, so I considered the Seagate He10 from OWC and bought one to try out and it worked (thank you), then bought another, so now I've got my set of three 10's. (one master internal in the Mac Pro 4,1 and two externals for cloning with a Voyager Q, which happily has low or no voltage on Pin 3 for some reason, so the HGST He 10 works in it.

    Also, the only sources of the He 12 from HGST that I've found want $700 for them, so for a while now the 10's will remain more compelling for me, based on being just over half price.

    Note that HGST says in their PDF that they are phasing in the feature and will put it in all of their drives at some point, but they don't say when, so it's possible that the 12's don't even exist without the feature. And note that most vendors are not telling us in their web pages about the feature -- surprise! Your drive is a brick! Some are telling us. Mine warned but I missed the fine print.

    It looks as though Seagate is taking a slower approach toward adding this feature, as it's clearly not present in either of their two He 10 models (ending of their model numbers is -16 and -86 I think). I don't know whether it's present in their two (at least) non-He 10TB models, but it's very, very likely that it's not. OWC sells the two I'm thinking of plus the two He 10's that I'm thinking of (all Seagate 10's) and they claim they work in all the Mac Pro's, so if that's the case, they certainly don't have the feature. The feature is a SATA v3.3 feature, but even though HGST is officially at SATA 3.2, they are including it in what seem to be the great majority of their drives shipped to the U.S.

    I do worry about future drives all having the feature. I checked around and I was unable to find any external RAID enclosure such as one might use with a newer type Mac Pro which was hip to the new feature. Some only come with drives already installed (Pegasus for example). It looks like there will be a schism between SATA enclosures/busses and SATA drives for a while. No old machines will work with newer drives perhaps, esp. from HGST. They will switch to branding all their stuff as WD in December of this year, 2017, I gather. The 18-month waiting period mandated by Chinese law will end then. Whether WD will continue with duplicate product lines I have no idea. WD has already started to deploy drives (e.g. He drives) which seem to use HGST technology.

    I prefer He drives in principle, despite using up a bit more of the very limited and disappearing supply of helium. Did you know that all of the helium on Earth is derived from the radioactive decay of 238U and 232Th in the core of the planet? It's been slowly created over billions of years, filters upward and some gets trapped under salt domes with natural gas, for example, which is where we get our supply. Unlike hydrogen, which is highly reactive and thus pretty much always stuck to oxygen (water) or carbon (hydrocarbons) and thus does't boil off into space, helium is non-reactive/noble, thanks to its one orbital being full with two electrons, yet still light enough to boil off into space. So it's long been predicted that we'll be suddenly running out by the middle of this century, and with little in the way of price signals to make us conserve it. It's vital for a number of uses. Not so vital for blimps and balloons for kids. We should consider going back to hydrogen for blimps, even if it is more dangerous.
     
  21. ZombiePhysicist macrumors 6502

    ZombiePhysicist

    Joined:
    May 22, 2014
    #22
    I dont' know what to think about HGST on this. On the one hand they are advancing the art. On the other, not long from now, spinning drives go away. You can get 16TB SSDs today (at outrageous prices, true) but my point is that they have surpassed spinning drives in capacity, and it's a matter of time (say 2 years) before prices reach 'close enough' parity. At which point, all this stuff is somewhat moot. So why bother instituting a new feature that keeps out legacy owners.

    I can see pros and cons to both including the new feature and not, but in the end, the choice is clear, I'm getting the Seagate 12TB helium for under $500 today. Will be testing it out, fingers crossed, that it works with no issues like the 10TB models.

    BTW, thanks for the helium synopsis, I did know some of that but not all of it. I look forward to the day we start filling birthday balloons with hydrogen, talk about exciting birthday parties!! :D
     
  22. JHolmes14 macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2017
    #23
    Rats! How did I miss their being on sale now for well under $500? If you download the detailed user guide and find the description of the SATA pin assignment and voltage, I bet it will say 3 volts on Pin 3, in which case it pretty much has to be OK. The vendor might also know if it's got the Power Disable Feature.

    So the 12 costs only about 100 more than the 10, a reasonable cost per TB.

    This 12TB manual (might be the wrong drives):

    http://www.seagate.com/www-content/...e-capacity-3-5-v7/_shared/docs/100815205b.pdf

    has 3 volts on Pin 3 (on page 26).

    This page lists lots of manuals:

    http://www.seagate.com/enterprise-storage/hard-disk-drives/enterprise-capacity-3-5-hdd-helium/#specs

    Oh oh -- I just found one of their SAS 12's <does> have the feature. Just poke around until all the variables become clear (Helium/not helium, encrypted/not encrypted, SAS/SATA, 4K/512, and so on) until you can be sure you're looking at the right one. Or get the model number from the vendor and actually find the right manual,, then find the pin descriptions in the PDF. I see B&H has the -NM0007 model.

    Ah! That <is> this one (same link as above): http://www.seagate.com/www-content/...e-capacity-3-5-v7/_shared/docs/100815205b.pdf

    Pinn 3 = 3.3 volts. It's a go.

    So it looks like they're just putting it into the SAS models at this point, not the SATA models. Maybe.
     
  23. William Payne macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Location:
    Wanganui, New Zealand.
    #24
    I hope you guys are doing regular backups and have data redundancy. That is a crap load of data to have on one hard drive if you guys have a failure.
     
  24. bbzzz macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2008
    #25
    for a while it was being dumped:
    http://www.popularmechanics.com/sci...we-visit-the-federal-helium-reserve-14720528/
     

Share This Page