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Well, what score do you get with the MSI65 before undervolting? That is my biggest gripe with these kind of comparisons. Undervolting is individual and it can be hit and miss depending on your luck of the draw.
Same on first run, drops on subsequent ones but still stays above 1200. The most limiting factor was not the voltage, but the power limits, which Apple doesn't seem to enforce - MBP throttles (ok, dynamically reduces the clock down from max turbo) based on temperature only. So I would rather argue that comparing out-of-the-box experience between MBP and windows machines doesn't make sense, because you're comparing 100C temp limit with power limits removed on Apple laptop to 90C and enforced 45W power on Windows box.

Funny observation - in Corona benchmark on MBP the power is actually locked to 45W, even though the temps are slowly creeping up from the 70C range and barely hit 90C at the end. In Cinebench you have a spike in power that gradually comes down while keeping temps around 100C. I'm not into conspiracy theories but it is eerie similar to Volkswagen diesel gate "testing mode" software, like as if Corona wasn't popular enough to warrant special treatment. And I'm 100% sure 6 months ago it was going above 45W in Corona and the score in it was quite a bit higher.

wtfisthis.jpg

Is it possible they created (recently, I'm sure it wasn't like that before) special profiles for popular benchmarking apps but are conservative outside of them to avoid overcooking the damn thing? I'm dumbfounded, don't have any other explanation.
 
Slow and fast machines are quite obvious across platforms. A MBP is faster than a Macbook, but when it comes to comparing the Apple vs Microsoft platforms, esp the premium line of machines, I think you get into strange comparisons.

I'm a person who enjoy using computers, as such I'm not a fanboy for any company. I am the type that I will immediately jump ship as soon as someone else comes out with a better product. I simply recognize that both Macs and PC's are tools, I use the better tool for the task at hand and switch happily across them.

That said, the rest are my impressions, not presented as a rule. Apple has clearly chosen a direction with their laptops. Integration across their other services and devices and going after a unique experience for the users. Being able to make/take calls, facetime, handoff, icloud notes... all of which I really enjoy using both personally and professionally.

PC's are a world of nearly infinite choices. Unlike buying Macs, it takes a lot more time to research all the different choices out there in the PC world.

That said, IMHO Apple has gone backwards with their laptop models. We all know about the KB problems the newer butterfly models are susceptible to, I have over 16 experiences between two of my MBP's. However what Apple has done is focused on all the wrong things.

1. They make changes just to be different, the keyboard and slimming of the Macbook line is some of that. There was no need to make the lineup that thin and most were okay with the typing feel of the non-butterfly keyboards.

2. Quieter fans are nice, but nobody likes having to type or have their hands subjected to higher levels of heat. PC companies like Gigabyte, Asus ROG and Razer all focus on temps at the contact points where your hands and fingers will be. I think many companies struggle to find a reasonable point to compromise on fan noise, temps and user experience in this area.

3. Performance. What Maflynn has pointed out, I believe I can agree with some of that, but not entirely. Heat generation alone is not the determining factor although it is a large part of it. Thermal throttling is an issue, regardless of it happening on a Mac or PC. That sort of stuff does and can affect the optimum performance of any machine esp when using applications or resources that draw on that much power.

The question is, how much this affects you will depend on how your machine is used. If you game on it, you will draw on the resources for the duration you play. If you mine cryptocurrency, you will draw on a different combination of resources. If you are a student using MS Office and on Blackboard, burden will be much less.
[doublepost=1556659533][/doublepost]Here's what I think Apple (or any other company) could do to improve their future lineups.

1. Focus less on trying to be cool by pumping out unnecessarily thin machines.

2. Focus on better reliability of commonly used things like button and any other contact points like keyboard, touchbar and such so that the user never has to worry about something like that prematurely failing just for using them normally.

3. Experiment with better thermal materials. On the PC (and some Mac) videos, some users have experimented with Gallium-based thermal compounds, but have noted the risk of using something conductive and does not cure to a solid. If Apple can use better heat transferring materials while maintaining reliability, this is a plus for everyone.

4. Better anti-conductivity coatings. MBP's come with moisture detectors that can trigger even when there's been no liquid spilled onto the machines. I live in a humid environment and I showed them using their demo MBP (that my local Genius bar uses for loaners) that by simply being outside their store in the open air, will turn their detectors to a positive red.

Instead, all computer manufacturers should use some sort of conformal coating on all logic/motherboards to provide a baseline level of anti-moisture protection.
 
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With Apple you buy alot of $$$$$ for a crippled laptop. That is why I went for the i7 2.6 ghz 6-core Macbook Pro.

There are laptops that are running the i9 at 4.9 ghz while the i9 in the Macbook Pro struggles maintaining 2.9 ghz for more $$$$$
 
My employer offers 13 inch MacBook Pros and Lenovos to their employees.
My son's employer provides their employers with 15 inch MacBook Pros
Google offers their employees MacBook Pros and Lenovos; most choose MacBook Pros
Mozilla offers MacBook Pros (they have to support macOS, Linux and Windows so it makes sense)
IBM has publicly stated that they moved to Macs many years ago for lower total cost of ownership.

If you're writing Apps for iOS (and there are a ton of them out there), you need macOS.
things are changing. Microsoft has good presence now. some companies offering surface book/Pro. but macbook pro fever is still on..may be couple of years. its difficult to get back user once you loose them..Apple is loosing customers because other companies are offering at least bang for buck devices..
 
things are changing. Microsoft has good presence now. some companies offering surface book/Pro. but macbook pro fever is still on..may be couple of years. its difficult to get back user once you loose them..Apple is loosing customers because other companies are offering at least bang for buck devices..

Companies buy for total cost of ownership as they use computers to make profits. The calculation with many customers is to still go with Apple. The cost of a devuc3 is tiny compared to the cost of labor.
 
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i tend to agree with some points.

MBP 13" imo works very well with it's U chips, and while it still packs some punch when necessary, it generally runs better for the chassis.

15" however is pushing the envelope way too much, I haven't seen a 15" 6-core Mac that I (personally) think is worth the money they're asking for it.

With that said, Apple has had these chips during the creation of their laptops and still continued to develop a design that was thinner with inadequate cooling capacity. They've been doing that for years. I can't see how that is Intels fault.
They had, but they were promised 10nm 6-cores, but yeah, it's on apple, they decided to release them.

The 15" 6-cores don't feel right. It was the first MacBook i had that felt cheap and poorly executed. I haven't tried any with Vega, but all Radeon offerings felt underwhelming.

First disappointment was that it didn't really run any quieter than my old 2012 Quad when running the same projects...

While the 13" quad does run quieter when running the exact same project where both 2012 and 2018 15" spun-up their fans.
Speakers are also weird. 13" sounds better, the 15" are way too overhyped and sound muffled, "huge" in an absolutely wrong way.
The 4y old Radeon chip still shipping in Q2 2019 in a 3000€ minimum machine is a complete joke.

These 15" shouldn't have happened.
 
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Based on all the laptop from both personal and corporate. MBP actually have the least of the problem among all.
(Except the new Butterfly keyboard issue, which is a abomination that many people faced)

All my MBP still alive and fine, since 2011..... Windows Laptop, not so much.....
 
Based on all the laptop from both personal and corporate. MBP actually have the least of the problem among all.
(Except the new Butterfly keyboard issue, which is a abomination that many people faced)

All my MBP still alive and fine, since 2011..... Windows Laptop, not so much.....

My work laptop is a Dell Latitude E5570 and I work for a large company. It has been replaced 2x since the 1 year I've had it for expanded battery issues as well as TPM failures. The laptop is docked on my desk all the time as I use an external KB and monitor... Local IT is very unhappy with he switch from Lenovo to Dell as they aired to me that there is constant reliability problems...

But that is all anecdotal...
 
My work laptop is a Dell Latitude E5570 and I work for a large company. It has been replaced 2x since the 1 year I've had it for expanded battery issues as well as TPM failures. The laptop is docked on my desk all the time as I use an external KB and monitor... Local IT is very unhappy with he switch from Lenovo to Dell as they aired to me that there is constant reliability problems...

But that is all anecdotal...

In my experience Dell's Precision line was generally pretty decent. The business focused Latitude's cheap rubbish rarely saw one last a full 3 years. One's I used never got past 12/18 months without a major issue. I work for myself these days no Dell's...

Q-6
 
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We use Linux at work and we have staff to keep our systems maintained. The staff to maintain Windows and macOS systems are tiny by comparison. I like iTunes and iCloud and will keep at least one Mac for these. My trading applications run best on Windows. One of them runs on Wine on Mac and it has problems from time to time - often around macOS udpates.

I've run linux since the 90s and like i said it has come a long way.

"Maintaining" a modern Distro like Pop!_OS or Ubuntu is no more difficult than macOS or Windows.

Yes, you would lose iTunes and iCloud, but being held hostage by online services (linux-friendly alternatives to both exist) is no way to make purchasing decisions that involve putting up with broken hardware in my opinion.

If you have to run Windows, you can virtualise windows instead of running it as the physical OS. That way you get the benefits of snapshots to roll back whatever Microsoft Update breaks on it, too. You can also set up templates to clone from for disposable throw-away VMs if desired.
 
Cool fan operation is what got me buying MBPs in the first place. I had an XPS 15 Dell and ended up turning off turbo boost to shut it up.
 
Mac sales are on the downward trend. Its impossible to know if that trend is related to pricing, the keyboard issue, or due to the fact that nearly every manufacturer saw a contraction.

It doesn't have to be only one of those reasons.

I'd say "All of the above", however Apple are directly responsible for two of those things.

I really hope they don't blame it on the ipad pro cannibalising sales - because whilst it may LOOK like that from the sales numbers, i didn't buy an ipad pro to replace my macbook. I didn't buy a new macbook because there's nothing i want.

Buying a macbook for a general purpose laptop with good keyboard/trackpad and battery life used to be a no brainer. Now it's just not attractive at all, save for macOS.
 
Their longterm goal is to switch to their own ARM processors that run alot cooler than intel.. think the new ipad pro processor was as fast as the intel in a 2017 macbook pro but without any fan. So just think what a arm processor can do in the cooling system the macbook pros have now. Will be awesome. Just take time to do a switch because all software need to be remade
 
Their longterm goal is to switch to their own ARM processors that run alot cooler than intel.. think the new ipad pro processor was as fast as the intel in a 2017 macbook pro but without any fan. So just think what a arm processor can do in the cooling system the macbook pros have now. Will be awesome. Just take time to do a switch because all software need to be remade

The processor isn't the biggest problem with apple's laptops right now.

I don't care whether they have a machine 5x or 10x the speed of my iPad Pro - if the keyboard has the same issues the current line has, then its a strict NO BUY from me.
 
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I've run linux since the 90s and like i said it has come a long way.

"Maintaining" a modern Distro like Pop!_OS or Ubuntu is no more difficult than macOS or Windows.

Yes, you would lose iTunes and iCloud, but being held hostage by online services (linux-friendly alternatives to both exist) is no way to make purchasing decisions that involve putting up with broken hardware in my opinion.

If you have to run Windows, you can virtualise windows instead of running it as the physical OS. That way you get the benefits of snapshots to roll back whatever Microsoft Update breaks on it, too. You can also set up templates to clone from for disposable throw-away VMs if desired.

We have about 15,000 engineers and our Linux environment is quite complex. We maintain our own linux distributions for enterprise customers. We use extremely complex tools as well. This is not consumer-level stuff.
 
I'd say "All of the above", however Apple are directly responsible for two of those things.
I have no idea, and anything I post is speculation, but I think the high price is one of the reasons why we're seeing some downward pressure on sales, be it Mac or iPhone. Some bad news with the keyboard is also impacting people's buying decisions but overall its not one single reason
 
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I have no idea, and anything I post is speculation, but I think the high price is one of the reasons why we're seeing some downward pressure on sales, be it Mac or iPhone. Some bad news with the keyboard is also impacting people's buying decisions but overall its not one single reason

It is hard to say. If you are looking for high-performance Windows stuff, you're going to be paying $3,000 and up. So the PC makers are charging more. I suppose that businesses could just buy the low-end stuff for their employees that don't need the better systems. Apple pushed the limits of pricing on their phones and there was a pretty sharp backlash which Apple recognized and they've changed direction on pricing.

I don't think that it's as simple in the Mac market because there are a lot of pro users. Apple just has to make a better case to pro users - and that means better hardware. If someone spends $4K and up for a laptop, they're looking for something - and that's often quality. Sure, there are tradeoffs but quality is implied.
 
I have no idea, and anything I post is speculation, but I think the high price is one of the reasons why we're seeing some downward pressure on sales, be it Mac or iPhone. Some bad news with the keyboard is also impacting people's buying decisions but overall its not one single reason

I think your speculation is warranted.

Even though I have discounts to Apple
thru my friends, the 2016 MBP was a shocker to me. In 2011, I bought a 15” for $2499. I was looking to upgrade in 2016 to something similar. In 2016, they released the touchbar and hiked the similar 15” to $2699 for something I did not care for

To this day I still am pissed over that. I’m one of those that dislikes paying more the same, relatively speaking.

Of course I still bought the Mac not because I was so happy about it but because I really needed it for personal work on more demanding tasks. I am lucky so far that nothing major has happened. I do remember when I first booted up the 2016, I saw the pink 2016 graphics glitch. I only saw it once haven’t seen it since

I really like MacOS. I just wish Apple fanboys who don’t use the MBP don’t take for granted the Apple ecosystem and support us that do.
 
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While it is true that PC might be faster, Macs multitask better, so unless you run only one program, that extras speed is not worth.

My experience is that macs can do more at the same time, resulting in better overall speed in tasks.
 
The calculation with many customers is to still go with Apple.

Not sure which rock you're living under but companies aren't going with Apple (or Windows) - the new model is all BYOD and in the office its just lightweight thin clients... that's how you really save costs. Everything is hosted in the cloud, no more supporting individual devices. Soon enough the vast majority of work related computing will be handled by the cloud - even a Chromebook is enough compute to get you by.
 
the new model is all BYOD and in the office
So you're saying employers are no longer supplying their employees with computers and they have provide their own? Tbh, I never heard that with computers, every company I know of provides their employees with the tools needed to do their job.
 
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