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Malaysia Airlines 777 Shot Down over Ukraine
- Thread starter quagmire
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Clicked on one such twitter link and the number of conspiracies already floating in the comments were astounding (Israeli retaliation for Malaysian condemnation of Gaza action, part of global conspiracy, someone predicted something big was going to happen back on 7/9, etc.) Apparently within several hours, these folks have made huge conclusions from their home computers.
I do hope the crash site can be contained by professionals soon so that if nothing else, no more gruesome photos and civilians pawing through wreckage or just gawking.
Good, thanks.
When people are trigger happy, even a sparrow is a threat.
All that chirping can be mistaken for machine gun fire.
I think you are overestimating the facts.
MH17 Boeing 777 is 33,000ft (about 6 miles away) traveling at 700mph toward the SAM battery.
The missile man see the 777 from 10 miles away (IF sky is not too hazy), Looking up about 40 degrees.
Because it is heading and the 40 degree angle, it looks more like a straight wing.
AN-26 also flies about 250 MPH, at lower altitude.
Given the distance, angle, air quality, it could looks like a straight wing turboprop at low alt.
The radar will see a blip, but not its wing span. A trained radar operator will understand it is large by reflection, but the operator might not have that training.
So, yes, to the ones shooting, they very well where certain it was a AN-26
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To go along with this, Airlines now, if possible, are doing whatever they can to avoid Ukrainian airspace:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...ines-say-they-are-avoiding-ukrainian-airspace
This greatly affects anyone on the Kangaroo route. While EuroControl basically put a TFR in place around that area from SFC-unlimited because of Crimea being in dispute, Anyone in Europe would basically be rerouted along the Greece/Romania/Bulgaria corridor, basically putting them between the Ukraine/Russia and Israel/Gaza conflicts.
Sucks to be in London and needing to get to Hong Kong, Singapore, or Sydney.
BL.
Like pretty much all medium range AA systems, the Buk's radar has a range of about 30 miles, and the missiles themselves can go 20 miles.
You don't just look up and see that, the plane was probably picked up and fired on before it was in visual range.
The Radars on lots of those systems also don't read transponders.
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That is probably what happened.
This is what happens when you give untrained rebels a crazy complicated self propelled SAM launcher.
This is a shame. I hate to blame the airline traffic controllers on this one, but why in the bloody hell are commercial planes flying over a country full of hostiles, that are at war. Sure, you may have to delay flights, but there has to be way to avoid the issue, no?
Because each country's aviation authority has jurisdiction of their airspace. If they say that their airspace is open, it is opened and protected by ATC. When that protection is lost/compromised, it is up to ATC to give the call to shut down that airspace. They couldn't tell that someone was going to shoot down an airplane just as much as the FAA could tell if someone would shoot down a plane over Kansas.
For now, the airlines themselves have opted to avoid that area, at the cost of the delays you mention, plus Eurocontrol has closed the airspace around that area.
BL.
One of the early commentators right after this tragedy was an NBC news military analyst, former anti-aircraft officer familiar with weapon and said the missile takes down aircraft up to 65,000 feet and is not fired by sight, but blip on radar. It is used during wars such as what is going on now. It's not a question of what angle operator looked at the plane from since this weapon is not about line of sight, but radar. It works off a series of trucks and operators.
This brings the more important question, with full knowledge of weapons like these used by both sides, of the rationale to fly in a war zone. It does not excuse the tragedy, but realize this is not a line of sight shoulder fired anti-aircraft weapon most people are thinking about but a large and expensive Soviet era anti aircraft weapon.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-crash-missile/
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I know it is a radar system. I was saying they should have tried to get a visual before firing. Even they thought it was a transport plane so it wasn't like they thought they were about to be bombed. And given the slow speed of a transport, they could have gotten visual and confirmed it was an AN-26 then fire.
They didn't need to blindly go off radar.....
Woulda, shoulda, coulda. Assuming for a moment that the separatests are responsible for this, as it indicates, it merely underscores their lack of training and discipline and shouldn't have these types of sophisticated weapons in the first place.
For me this catastrophe has a name and a face: a former colleague with his wife and son were on board on their way home 
Can't describe my feelings.
Rest in peace Paul
Can't describe my feelings.
Rest in peace Paul
Correct me if I'm wrong... But Kansas isn't in the middle of a war zone filled with Russian-armed paramilitary forces?
For me this catastrophe has a name and a face: a former colleague with his wife and son were on board on their way home
Can't describe my feelings.
Rest in peace Paul
Sorry to hear this.
I know the airspace was technically "open", which is why I think the airline should be at blame. At what point do you figure that it is safe to fly over a warzone?
Why would the separatists shoot down Putin? He's the best ally they've got.
Who do you think is supplying them with advanced SAM batteries?
if a country is going to use its airspace for combat purposes (troop transport, resupply and bombing) then than that airspace needs to be immediately restricted from civilian use.
Leaving it open to civilian flights is reckless at best and cynical at worst; having civilian traffic run the risk of events like these, or hoping that the risk of bringing down a civilian plane will dissuade an opponent from defending the airspace over their heads.
Leaving it open to civilian flights is reckless at best and cynical at worst; having civilian traffic run the risk of events like these, or hoping that the risk of bringing down a civilian plane will dissuade an opponent from defending the airspace over their heads.
Because when a bunch of civilian and former soldiers (with probably just basic training) are mixed together to create a separatist rebel group, they will only feel the need to visually identify their own friendly aircraft. Since they don't have any big planes (if they have any at all) I'm guessing they assumed that since it wasn't friendly it must be an enemy. A tragic false assumption of course.
The conspiracy theory consensus is that the Ukranian government shot down the plane.
From there, you can choose your conspiracy flavour (in cursive, my opinion)
A. They thought it was Putin's plane. Because clearly Putin doesn't have any enemies and his plane doesn't have countermeasures, commercial planes don't have transponders, etc ...
B. The Ukranian government shot it down a false flag operation, to frame the rebels. This theory has the advantage that it cannot be disproved. Any proof can be disregarded as having been planted or as being fake. Instead of going from facts to conclusion, they work from a conclusion and choose which facts to accept/deny, depending on how convenient they are. That's a fine tautology if I ever saw one.
C. Anything that doesn't involve Russia arming untrained militias with war weaponry, actually. Russia Today is such a blatant case of shameless propaganda and disinformation, it makes me mad (and I'm very left leaning). Right after the news were known, while everybody was saying "WTF", they were already on the defensive and blaming the Evil empire, zionists, nazis, Obama, and basically everybody else. Excusatio non petita, accusation manifesta
Commercial planes have been flying above the worst parts of Afghanistan and Iraq for the past decade, and have flown over Ukraine without incident these past few months. 30,000 feet is out of range for all but the most advanced missile systems. Your every day terrorist with a rocket launcher on his shoulder can't reach commercial aircraft.
It's sad this world has become a scary place. I'm glad I'm not young since it's only going to get worse. Mark my words friends...
