Malaysia Airlines 777 Shot Down over Ukraine

[Alexander.Of.Oz]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the loss of those on this flight travelling to the 20th International AIDS conference, which starts Sunday, in Melbourne, Australia.

Quite a few key activists, players and researchers within the AIDS research fields are now tragically gone.

 

[firestarter]

If you flew around every little bit of 'warzone' on the planet, that would leave very little planet to go through. They'd have to avoid Lebanon, Israel, Syria, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. Try avoiding all of that and getting to WMKK without stopping for fuel.

Indeed... there's much to avoid in that region. Here's an updated 'avoid' map published yesterday - you can see how many zones are out of bounds (Tripoli, Ukraine, Israel, Syria etc.) and how the blockage of this new zone has resulted in Eastbound delays through the Russian corridor to the North of Ukraine. This is an extremely busy route from Europe to South and SE Asia.

http://worldairops.com/public/WAO_UkraineAirspaceBriefing18JUL.pdf

(Info taken from a posting on PPRUNE)

 

[skunk]

But you would( or at least should) to visually identify the plane before firing that SAM to make sure something like this doesn't happen. Just don't rely on radar saying there is a plane and blindly fire a missile without making visual contact.....

Actually, that is exactly what the crew of the USS Vincennes did.

 

[Plutonius]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the loss of those on this flight travelling to the 20th International AIDS conference, which starts Sunday, in Melbourne, Australia.

Quite a few key activists, players and researchers within the AIDS research fields are now tragically gone.

If the read all the post in this thread, you will see it was mentioned.

 

[Alexander.Of.Oz]

If the read all the post in this thread, you will see it was mentioned.

Turns out I read every post apart from the first on the previous page!

Apologies for that oversight.

 

[Gutwrench]

So, the fact that British Airways, among others, avoided that airspace does not give you a hint that the airlines knew about the warning. Media in this country has everyone fooled. "Blame Russia", coming out of the presidents mouth should provide a clue. They are picking sides. Take a closer look. Hook, Line, and Bait.

There is one airline out of SNA that uses a departure procedure that is company specific, that no other airline uses. Should that give other airlines a hint that what they are doing is wrong?

The answer to that, and your question, is NO. No airline is going to care about what another airline is doing. They will only care when the governing aviation authority issues a NOTAM about the airspace. That's what they did with the TFR, and the boundaries of the TFR.

BL.

Since you like to play flight simulator games I'll defer to your expertise...heck I admittedly haven't even slept in a Holiday Express lately.

What you're saying isn't complicated at all and I think we all comprehend it. But pull your head out of the sand and at least acknowledge there's a commercial element to this as well. Wasn't at least one military aircraft downed both in time and local proximity in advance of this tragedy? The risk of this happening was no surprise to the commercial airlines. They have the ability to voluntarily use other flight paths around this area and the reason they didn't is clearly not out of the concern for the safety of their passengers.

 

[Huntn]

The rebels are claiming that they were shooting a missile at a military transport in the same timeframe that the plane crashed. The authorities are claiming that the plane crashed due to a missile. It looks to me like the rebels shot the plane down.

A contrail in the sky in itself reveals little about an airplane at 30k feet if you are standing there with binoculars. You can tell that it's large, but the question remains what is it and who does it belong to? Was this a stupid accident as in they intentionally shot down what they thought was a Ukraine aircraft or did someone intentionally shoot down a random airliner to further destabilize the situation as in a terrorist like action?

The large widely scattered pieces on the ground seems to indicate the aircraft exploded in the air and came down in pieces.

 

[Prof.]

Reports are coming in that bodies are being left to decompose but luggage is being stolen/looted?!?

There's a special place in hell for these people.

 

[ucfgrad93]

Reports are coming in that bodies are being left to decompose but luggage is being stolen/looted?!?

There's a special place in hell for these people.

Agreed stealing from the wreakage is pretty low.

 

[Prof.]

Agreed stealing from the wreakage is pretty low.

And now they're destroying evidence...

If I'm this pissed off I can't imagine what the families of the victims are feeling.

 

[Sym0]

Since you like to play flight simulator games I'll defer to your expertise...heck I admittedly haven't even slept in a Holiday Express lately.

What you're saying isn't complicated at all and I think we all comprehend it. But pull your head out of the sand and at least acknowledge there's a commercial element to this as well. Wasn't at least one military aircraft downed both in time and local proximity in advance of this tragedy? The risk of this happening was no surprise to the commercial airlines. They have the ability to voluntarily use other flight paths around this area and the reason they didn't is clearly not out of the concern for the safety of their passengers.

The no fly zone ended at 32,000ft - so they were not in danger according to the rules. Might as well have been shot out of the air over the middle of the US of A for all it matters.

 

[bradl]

A contrail in the sky in itself reveals little about an airplane at 30k feet if you are standing there with binoculars. You can tell that it's large, but the question remains what is it and who does it belong to? Was this a stupid accident as in they intentionally shot down what they thought was a Ukraine aircraft or did someone intentionally shoot down a random airliner to further destabilize the situation as in a terrorist like action?

The large widely scattered pieces on the ground seems to indicate the aircraft exploded in the air and came down in pieces.

Some (but not all) carriers request that the aircraft registration numbers be put on the bottom of the fuselage, so it could be possible figure out what aircraft it is, and who operates it.

Example:

That should tell you not only what type of aircraft it is, but which carrier it is registered to. If the info has been made available, it could also tell you where it's going and which route it is on to get there.

I highly doubt who did this would have taken the time to figure this out, but it is possible if those are available.

BL.

 

[skunk]

With all the unsupported Western propaganda claims that Russia recklessly supplied the BUK system to the separatists, why no mention of the tweets from separatists three weeks ago celebrating their capture of a BUK launcher from the Ukrainian Army? I wonder why the Ukrainian "government" is not admitting their loss?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...witter.com/dnrpress/status/483248037629018112

 

[firestarter]

With all the unsupported Western propaganda claims that Russia recklessly supplied the BUK system to the separatists, why no mention of the tweets from separatists three weeks ago celebrating their capture of a BUK launcher from the Ukrainian Army? I wonder why the Ukrainian "government" is not admitting their loss?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...witter.com/dnrpress/status/483248037629018112

There are doubtless a lot of shades of grey in this situation, that are being sidelined in the 'black and white' talk from each side.

- Most probably the separatists shot the plane down with a BUK SAM
- Most probably they'd been in receipt of support from the Russians
- Unlikely that Russian army/trained experts themselves pulled the trigger
- Unlikely that the Russians directly supported this action (it plays badly for them)
- Could have been a missing Ukranian BUK, could have been Russian (we're unlikely to find evidence or the launcher itself)
- Unlikely that the Ukranians shot down the plane to set up the separatists
- Possible that the Ukranians engineered a situation where the accidental shooting down of an airliner became more likely (it plays well for them) - either by influencing the routing of the plane, or stepping up other military flights in the vicinity
- Highly likely that the US and Russia both know the exact location of the SAM launcher when the missile was released, but are unwilling to reveal the accuracy of their intelligence

 

[CrickettGrrrl]

And now they're destroying evidence...

If I'm this pissed off I can't imagine what the families of the victims are feeling.

Dutch news is reporting that some of the masked guards were drunk & firing guns.

 

[Huntn]

Some (but not all) carriers request that the aircraft registration numbers be put on the bottom of the fuselage, so it could be possible figure out what aircraft it is, and who operates it.

Example:

That should tell you not only what type of aircraft it is, but which carrier it is registered to. If the info has been made available, it could also tell you where it's going and which route it is on to get there.

I highly doubt who did this would have taken the time to figure this out, but it is possible if those are available.

BL.

At altitude it seems questionable that would be readable with binoculars, but I can't say for sure as I have no idea if any attempt was made at identifying the plane or what other equipment or intelligence was used.

 

[Gutwrench]

The no fly zone ended at 32,000ft - so they were not in danger according to the rules. Might as well have been shot out of the air over the middle of the US of A for all it matters.

What? So it's safe to fly at 32k or 33k feet but unsafe at 31k? Is that what you're saying? Commercial airlines need to proactively manage their risk and in assessing what has been happening in this area they shouldn't be flying there. This doesn't minimize the culpability of whoever actually filed this missile (which I believe is likely the separatists).

For that matter why didn't the separatists caution commercial airlines not to fly over the area? The answer in my mind is because they were poorly trained and undisciplined.

 

[Abstract]

If aviation authorities didn't officially issue a NOTAM regarding this airspace, then flying over it shouldn't be seen as the airline's fault. They were following the recommendations (or inaction) by aviation authorities who are supposed to know better. The fact that some other airlines chose not to fly over that airspace doesn't mean that flying over it was "wrong". MA followed protocol, and if they flew high enough in the air, as advised, then I don't see the issue (except they're all dead now).


Besides, all this attention on Malaysian Airlines does deflect attention away from the real issue, which is that people fired a missile at a passenger plane with their eyes closed.

 

[Wadirum]

I was brought up close to where the Pan Am flight came down in Lockerbie Scotland, I was only 12 at the time but I still remember many local people helped gather belongings of the victims, people even washed and cleaned personal items such as soft toys before giving them to the Authorities to pass on the victims families. its just so frustrating that there seems no one really in charge there almost 4 days now, I feel so much for all those families just desperate for their loved ones to be returned now.

 

[skunk]

I was brought up close to where the Pan Am flight came down in Lockerbie Scotland, I was only 12 at the time but I still remember many local people helped gather belongings of the victims, people even washed and cleaned personal items such as soft toys before giving them to the Authorities to pass on the victims families.

If anyone did that in Ukraine, it would be denounced as tampering with the evidence.

 

[bradl]

Wow.

http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/5596...irline-mh17-conspiracy-theory-igor-girkin.htm

Malaysia Airline MH17: Ukraine Rebel Leader Claims Downed Plane Was Filled With Dead Bodies Before Takeoff
By Anne Lu
Monday, July 21, 2014 12:29 AM EST

A pro-Russia separatist leader has claimed that the Malaysia Airline flight MH17 was filled with dead bodies even before it took off on Thursday.

The ill-fated Boeing 777 plane was en route to Kuala Lumpur from Amsterdam on Thursday when it was shot down at 10,000 metres above along the border between Ukraine and Russia. None of the 280 passengers and 15 crew members survived.

Ukraine and Russia have been pointing fingers at each other for the incident, with both claiming the other was to blame for the unprovoked attack of the commercial jet plane.

On Friday, rebel commander Igor Girkin from eastern Ukraine presented a conspiracy theory on the Web site Russkaya Vesna, saying that there were people at the plane’s crash site who told him a “significant number of the bodies weren’t fresh.”

According to the Associated Press, Girkin’s sources claimed that some of the corpses were already drained of blood and had smelt of decomposition.

Although Girkin, who is also known as Strelkov, admitted that he couldn’t confirm the said information, he was adamant that “Ukrainian authorities are capable of any baseness.”

He added that there was a large amount of blood serum and medications that were found in the wreckage in Ukraine, near the Russian border.

The plane might indeed have been carrying medications and blood serums since there were 108 doctors on board. The medical professionals were AIDS-HIV experts who were headed to the 20th international AIDS conference in Melbourne this July.

Girkin is allegedly a former Russian military intelligence agent.

Meanwhile, a report from Kyiv Post claimed that Ukraine’s security agency (SBU) had intercepted phone calls between Russia and members of terrorist groups, implying that the downing of MH17 was the fault of Russian-backed Cossack militants.

I wonder what comes next in the game of 'how low can you go'.

BL.

 

[DonJudgeMe]

The no fly zone ended at 32,000ft - so they were not in danger according to the rules. Might as well have been shot out of the air over the middle of the US of A for all it matters.

Well, the USA is not currently involved in a war on the homefront, and I do believe our technology and communication, as well as military training, to be a little more advanced than the separatists that allegedly shot the plane down, don't you?



I mean, you guys do realize that it is up to the airlines as to which flight-path they take. And I've already posted resources to show that this particular path had been avoided by MOST airlines. Quit being surprised that this happened. If anything, you should be surprised that these idiots were continuing to ignore warnings of others.

----------

Wow.

http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/5596...irline-mh17-conspiracy-theory-igor-girkin.htm



I wonder what comes next in the game of 'how low can you go'.

BL.

I agree. That is way out of left field. I guess we know who did it...

 

[bradl]

Well, the USA is not currently involved in a war on the homefront, and I do believe our technology and communication, as well as military training, to be a little more advanced than the separatists that allegedly shot the plane down, don't you?

You're not getting the point. It doesn't matter if we are in a war or not. All that matters is that it is possible for this to happen over any territory that is under dispute, and that the NOTAMs in place for this were adequate enough for the ICAO, EuroControl, and the airlines.

I mean, you guys do realize that it is up to the airlines as to which flight-path they take. And I've already posted resources to show that this particular path had been avoided by MOST airlines. Quit being surprised that this happened. If anything, you should be surprised that these idiots were continuing to ignore warnings of others.

Really? It is? Then we should just throw preferred routes, airways, RNAV, and oceanic tracks out the proverbial window.

EDIT: Let's throw some data at this.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140625/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140618/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140512/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK

5/12/14, 6/18/14, and 6/25/14, for MAS17. All the same route.

By comparison:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/KLM809/history/20140630/1850Z/EHAM/WMKK
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/KLM809/history/20140622/1850Z/EHAM/WMKK
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/KLM809/history/20140517/1850Z/EHAM/WMKK

KLM809 over the same period of time. Notice how the routes are nearly identical.

Now. Want to explain again how this is the airline's fault for taking that route?

BL.

 

[DonJudgeMe]

You're not getting the point. It doesn't matter if we are in a war or not. All that matters is that it is possible for this to happen over any territory that is under dispute, and that the NOTAMs in place for this were adequate enough for the ICAO, EuroControl, and the airlines.



Really? It is? Then we should just throw preferred routes, airways, RNAV, and oceanic tracks out the proverbial window.

BL.

Ok, you keep saying it was declared a safe path. If this is true then how in the hell did a plane get shot down? Why did said airlines choose other paths? Was it coincidence? NO. THESE GUYS KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON.

As per your second quote, you are REALLY reaching. Do YOU know anything about directed flight-path's? In all actuality, it is ultimately up to the pilot to decide what is safe. Now I realize that he probably wouldn't disagree with his designed route for fear of his job, or just plain ignorance, but you are really trying to push across that it is only the separatists(dumbasses with big guns) fault? I swear, its like talking to a wall in here. My 3 year old comprehends the word "responsibility" better than you.

 

[Abstract]

Ok, you keep saying it was declared a safe path. If this is true then how in the hell did a plane get shot down?

That doesn't mean it wasn't declared a safe path.


In hindsight, it's like splitting hairs, because the plane was clearly shot down flying through this zone. However, in terms of protocol and listening to the authorities, I don't think Malaysian Airlines did anything wrong. The fact that some other airlines didn't fly over this airspace doesn't mean MA was doing anything wrong.