Good. Perhaps we can depend on being kept up to date. The media does it's job, but is a loose cannon.
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Massive quake hits Japan 9.0 Magnitude
- Thread starter Apple OC
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Good. Perhaps we can depend on being kept up to date. The media does it's job, but is a loose cannon.
The problem for the west with a situation like this (or conversely the east when something happens in the west), is that the news in the other hemisphere is bound to be delayed, and at the mercy of translation; it goes with the territory.
I don't want to start a pissing match with anyone, because I think all of us want the same thing, and fear the same thing.
All I'm advocating is waiting on reliable information as things develop, and not to jump to any wild conclusions. If anyone's got vested interest in worrying, it's us here in Japan.
Ugh, just as soon as I had posted...
I haven't "been praising" their construction, I "praised" their construction in one post, if you can even call it that. The Japanese know what they are doing by and large in many of the things they do; that's why Japan has had 30% of its power delivered via well-developed, and well-understood nuclear sources for years, while the west is still outright paranoid of so much as a mention of the word nuclear.
The only thing I did was compare it to Chernobyl, or rather defend against it, as it certainly is not Chernobyl, and was built to higher standards than anything in the USSR during that time, that meaning Chernobyl.
You think they built the plant 40 years ago and have done literally nothing in terms of maintenance and/or upgrades since that time? You don't think regulatory statutes and codes have changed during the time, and they've had to comply with those and be subject to normal regulatory inspections that meet todays 2011 safety and energy protocols?
Just because the plant was built 40 years ago, doesn't mean it is the same plant as what was built 40 years ago. Trust me, I was and am full aware that the plant is older than Chernobyl. But the difference is that Chernobyl ate it during a time of 1980's USSR safety standards, when the international nuclear community wasn't nearly as effective as it is today. Today's plant may be 10 years older than Chernobyl, but it's 30 years further up to date. Nuclear plants in the first world don't exactly get the "build it and forget it" treatment.
I don't want to argue about this, because it's pointless since we are all hoping for the best and fearing the worst. But I do know a thing or two, and it gets tiring correcting false information proliferating throughout thanks to a bunch of people in the media who have no technical training and haven't a clue about anything. The Japan forums are ablaze with misinformation.
Nuclear power is generally pretty safe, and it's a shame the west hasn't been able to embrace it, IMO. That isn't to say tragic accidents can't happen, as they can, but by and large they are extremely, extremely rare.
Beg to differ. You've been praising Japanese nuclear power plant construction as being superior to the impoverished Soviet ones that go into meltdown. Well, we've all now seen your argument for the 'testament to building codes' by 'experts on Japanese nuclear regulations' totally explode and is now lying in rubble. Unless of course you now insist that the building exploding and cllapsing on the core is part of the building codes?:
I haven't "been praising" their construction, I "praised" their construction in one post, if you can even call it that. The Japanese know what they are doing by and large in many of the things they do; that's why Japan has had 30% of its power delivered via well-developed, and well-understood nuclear sources for years, while the west is still outright paranoid of so much as a mention of the word nuclear.
The only thing I did was compare it to Chernobyl, or rather defend against it, as it certainly is not Chernobyl, and was built to higher standards than anything in the USSR during that time, that meaning Chernobyl.
You think they built the plant 40 years ago and have done literally nothing in terms of maintenance and/or upgrades since that time? You don't think regulatory statutes and codes have changed during the time, and they've had to comply with those and be subject to normal regulatory inspections that meet todays 2011 safety and energy protocols?
Just because the plant was built 40 years ago, doesn't mean it is the same plant as what was built 40 years ago. Trust me, I was and am full aware that the plant is older than Chernobyl. But the difference is that Chernobyl ate it during a time of 1980's USSR safety standards, when the international nuclear community wasn't nearly as effective as it is today. Today's plant may be 10 years older than Chernobyl, but it's 30 years further up to date. Nuclear plants in the first world don't exactly get the "build it and forget it" treatment.
I don't want to argue about this, because it's pointless since we are all hoping for the best and fearing the worst. But I do know a thing or two, and it gets tiring correcting false information proliferating throughout thanks to a bunch of people in the media who have no technical training and haven't a clue about anything. The Japan forums are ablaze with misinformation.
Nuclear power is generally pretty safe, and it's a shame the west hasn't been able to embrace it, IMO. That isn't to say tragic accidents can't happen, as they can, but by and large they are extremely, extremely rare.
Not entirely sure with "the west hasn't been able to embrace nuclear power." France are the global leaders in nuclear power in terms of how many nuclear plants there are in France, and how much electricity is being generated in the country through nuclear energy. powering something like 80% of the country's electricity. And The French EDF corporation has operations worldwide.
More importantly, there have never been any severe deathly occurrences with nuclear power plants in france since a long time, and with the large number of plants they have (59), that's impressive.
Nuclear energy is substantially better for the environment, countries like china however continue to use coal as they main source of energy because they have tons of it and it's cheaper than making the foray into building nuclear plants. Which inevitably results in poor air quality all over the country.
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Er,China leads the world in Nuclear generation design (not that I'm saying this is a good thing).
Let's put things into perspective...
60% of china's electricity is generated through the burning of coal - a heavy pollutant, which is not a renewable source. Thus not viable.
china has 9 nuclear power plants which account for 2% of chinas energy, whilst France has 59 plants accounting for 80% of the country's energy. And Nuclear power IS a viable form of energy in contrast to coal. And fundamentally better for the environment (although not totally unharmful).
Before everyone jumps to conclusions and spreads fear mongering ... as I said this will not be like Chernobyl.
While we are all on the same page and wish for the best news possible for the region ... we need to look at this with proper perspective.
Chernobyl was 25 years ago and happened in a country known at the time to reject outside help.
What is unfolding in Japan will be dealt with by the very best experts the World has to offer.
I have complete confidence no matter how this turns ... The Japanese Government will do what is right for the people who live there.
IMO ... this will be under control quite soon. Watching it on the news and the Internet is almost pathetic ... the Media seems to want this to get bigger.
We all wish the best for everyone affected by this tragedy.
While we are all on the same page and wish for the best news possible for the region ... we need to look at this with proper perspective.
Chernobyl was 25 years ago and happened in a country known at the time to reject outside help.
What is unfolding in Japan will be dealt with by the very best experts the World has to offer.
I have complete confidence no matter how this turns ... The Japanese Government will do what is right for the people who live there.
IMO ... this will be under control quite soon. Watching it on the news and the Internet is almost pathetic ... the Media seems to want this to get bigger.
We all wish the best for everyone affected by this tragedy.
I appreciate a little humor now and again during horrible tragedies. As long as that humor doesn't go overboard. It can break ones panicked state of fear.
And iirc Chernobyl had graphite core reactor without a containment building. Japan reactors have containment buildings.
And iirc Chernobyl had graphite core reactor without a containment building. Japan reactors have containment buildings.
Do you have a link for this? I'd like to read about it. I would think a system setup to automatically scram when power is lost would be the ideal.
I agree speculation may not be helpful but there is the government on one hand reassuring everyone, possibly minimizing the situation and the press which tends to maximize the situation. Speculation is very human and concern is understandable. BTW, my sympathy goes out to Japan. I've spent a lot of time there and it is my favorite Asian country. I hope you recover quickly from this disaster.
"Making news" that is what they do. I don't condone it.
Nuclear power would be wonderful if not for thousands of radioactive barrels that will be dangerous for the next 10k years, tsunamis, earthquakes, and acts of terrorism. Now, if they can actually start find a way to reuse or safely dispose of this waste that might moderate my view somewhat. And there is the "not in my backyard" problem.
I'd say you are speculating. I'm in the wait and see mode.
Closed-mouthed officials, and open-mouthed media.
Pass out the iodine pills on this one.
The people from Missouri would get this one right away.
The Show Me state.
Pass out the iodine pills on this one.
The people from Missouri would get this one right away.
The Show Me state.
This earthquake ranks 5th for strongest earthquakes accurately recorded.
It shifted the Earth four inches on its axis. If I understand correctly the 2010 Chilean earthquake actually shifted the Earth's axis. I wonder how often either of these events happen.
EDIT: The JPL now thinks that the Japan earthquake shifted the Earth's axis. I've found out this occurrence is somewhat "common".
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Do you understand what high ambient radiation does to the crystal structure of construction materials? 40 years is a very very long time in the operational lifespan of any nuclear power plant. Unless they have completely replaced the core hardware itself at least once, as well as the heat management system (which is entirely possible) the reactor could very well be in a seriously weakened state from the intense exposure. Every functional part of a plant is exposed to elevated radiation levels, spreading the material degradation throughout the system.
Not really. The enormous amount of energy that goes into fuel acquisition and refinement makes it nearly a wash when compared with other forms of electric energy production. When you add in the disposal of waste, both spent fuel and low level radioactive construction materials, the equation starts to creep into the red. Of course, you might be able to prove me wrong, if you could find me an example of an operational nuclear power plant built and run entirely, or even largely, with private funding.
BTW, this Japanese plant was built in 1971, which is *older* than the 30+ years you deride the old Soviet plants for being. So there's more of your 'expert because I've got two degrees' opinion lying in more not so expert after all rubble. Speaking of deriding:
I might like to point out that the Chernobyl plant was designed to produced weapons grade plutonium and produce power. That put some major problems on the design and put safety at risk. Control rods would have to be able to removed WHILE the reactor was running and fairly often. Not something you do unless you plane on making weapons grade plutonium. It also had to be much larger in size because it needed to produce power.
Yet another reason why this is not be Chernobyl.
We can also add unlike Soviet Russia Japan would not of cut huge safety corners to save cost at the time and over the past 30 years they sure as hell would of improved the plants safe.
While I am not a nuclear engineer, I do have a fair amount of knowledge in the area, so with that in mind I can personally say that this will NOT become another Chernobyl situation. Again though as a disclaimer, this is not my career.
With that said, the BWR should be fine. What we saw earlier was the steam blowing apart the structure-- this just means that they didn't do their job in relieving the pressure. The core should be intact, and the reports state that the housing is still in place. When the control rods are inserted into the core, the rods will not melt down, however heat WILL still be produced. In this case, steam. Steam voids moderate fewer neutrons, causing the power level inside the reactor to lower. Furthermore, there should be safety overpressure valves... not sure why these didn't work; they may not be there due to the age of the plant.
To quote wikipedia about BWR safety:
Again; BWR =/= graphite moderated reactor. Why does no one get this?! Everyone will be fine.
Two more bones of contention (which will give you my perspective):
-I personally believe the linear no threshold model is crap, even with the adjustment factor
-I also personally advocate the use of thorium... there's many benefits, melt-down control being one of them (because of MSR)... also although there's still fabrication issues, thorium can be used in existing LWRs. There is also proposed designs where the thorium has to actively be fed into the core, providing a great shutoff mechanism. The only con to this is the fact that thorium is more radioactive than uranium, so it's potentially more dangerous. I think the pros outweigh the cons.
Sure! It's really rather cool. (No pun intended)
For starters here is the current safety systems that are supposed to be in all BWR, however since this one is from the 80's, it's really hit or miss-- I can't answer that.
New reactor designs have these systems in place-- for example the Westinghouse AP 1000's. (here)
A general link about passive safety here.
Basically though, the idea is that human intervention, mechanical or otherwise, is always the weak point in nuclear safety. Instead of relying upon mechanical or man-controlled means, these safety measures employ the laws of physics and thermodynamics, which I hope are always working. Many of these systems rely on heat sensitive plugs connected to tanks to flood the chamber or coolant systems via gravity.
With that said, the BWR should be fine. What we saw earlier was the steam blowing apart the structure-- this just means that they didn't do their job in relieving the pressure. The core should be intact, and the reports state that the housing is still in place. When the control rods are inserted into the core, the rods will not melt down, however heat WILL still be produced. In this case, steam. Steam voids moderate fewer neutrons, causing the power level inside the reactor to lower. Furthermore, there should be safety overpressure valves... not sure why these didn't work; they may not be there due to the age of the plant.
To quote wikipedia about BWR safety:
Again; BWR =/= graphite moderated reactor. Why does no one get this?! Everyone will be fine.
Two more bones of contention (which will give you my perspective):
-I personally believe the linear no threshold model is crap, even with the adjustment factor
-I also personally advocate the use of thorium... there's many benefits, melt-down control being one of them (because of MSR)... also although there's still fabrication issues, thorium can be used in existing LWRs. There is also proposed designs where the thorium has to actively be fed into the core, providing a great shutoff mechanism. The only con to this is the fact that thorium is more radioactive than uranium, so it's potentially more dangerous. I think the pros outweigh the cons.
Sure! It's really rather cool. (No pun intended)
For starters here is the current safety systems that are supposed to be in all BWR, however since this one is from the 80's, it's really hit or miss-- I can't answer that.
New reactor designs have these systems in place-- for example the Westinghouse AP 1000's. (here)
A general link about passive safety here.
Basically though, the idea is that human intervention, mechanical or otherwise, is always the weak point in nuclear safety. Instead of relying upon mechanical or man-controlled means, these safety measures employ the laws of physics and thermodynamics, which I hope are always working
. Many of these systems rely on heat sensitive plugs connected to tanks to flood the chamber or coolant systems via gravity.
LA search-and-rescue team heading to Japan
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=8008582
Nice to see this response coming out of Los Angeles ... apparently they have already left.
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=8008582
Nice to see this response coming out of Los Angeles ... apparently they have already left.
Number three reactor at the same plant has cooling and containment issues hopefully they can get it under control.
0106: The director general of the UN nuclear watchdog (IAEA), Yukiya Amano, says he hopes the actions taken by the Japanese authorities at the power plant will be successful: "The IAEA was informed by the Japanese authorities that the explosion occurred outside the primary containment vessel at unit one and the integrity of that vessel is confirmed. The IAEA has been informed that sea water with boron is being injected into the vessel as a counter-measure to prevent possible damage to the core. I hope that the sea water will be injected successfully and that the safety of unit one will be established as soon as possible."
0147: The legal limit for radioactivity has been passed at the Fukushima plant, AFP says, quoting Japan's Kyodo news agency.
0152: Yaroslav Shtrombakh, a Russian nuclear expert, has told the Associated Press that it is unlikely that the Japanese plant will suffer a meltdown like the one in 1986 at Chernobyl, when a reactor exploded and sent a cloud of radiation over much of Europe. That reactor, unlike the reactors at Fukushima, was not housed in a sealed container.
0147: The legal limit for radioactivity has been passed at the Fukushima plant, AFP says, quoting Japan's Kyodo news agency.
0152: Yaroslav Shtrombakh, a Russian nuclear expert, has told the Associated Press that it is unlikely that the Japanese plant will suffer a meltdown like the one in 1986 at Chernobyl, when a reactor exploded and sent a cloud of radiation over much of Europe. That reactor, unlike the reactors at Fukushima, was not housed in a sealed container.
Another 6.2 offshore 180K east from Tokio.
If you'd like more info or just to feed your nuclear paranoia look here:
http://twitter.com/arclight#
If you'd like more info or just to feed your nuclear paranoia look here:
http://twitter.com/arclight#
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The change in language used to describe the situation does not help my fears. "low level radiation" and "elevated level", "unsafe level"... That's akin to saying a fire produces unsafe temperatures - but does not inform you if it's a candle, or forest fire... What type of exposure has occurred? I find it hard to swallow people involved with the reactor, and government communication with them don't already know exactly what's going on.
0217: The latest from Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan: "We've been working overnight to try to recover from the situation. I'm about to board a helicopter to go to the affected areas, in particular the area around affected nuclear facilities. At the moment we have ordered a 10km exclusion zone around the facility. I'm going there with experts from the industry to talk with the people responsible on the ground, and to grasp how the situation is. On this basis we will make the necessary decisions."
0225: The unsafe level of radioactivity at the Fukushima plant is being created by the plant's No 3 reactor, AFP says, quoting the Japanese government.
0228: Just a reminder: cooling systems failed at the No 3 reactor hours after the explosion at the No 1 reactor.
0217: The latest from Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan: "We've been working overnight to try to recover from the situation. I'm about to board a helicopter to go to the affected areas, in particular the area around affected nuclear facilities. At the moment we have ordered a 10km exclusion zone around the facility. I'm going there with experts from the industry to talk with the people responsible on the ground, and to grasp how the situation is. On this basis we will make the necessary decisions."
0225: The unsafe level of radioactivity at the Fukushima plant is being created by the plant's No 3 reactor, AFP says, quoting the Japanese government.
0228: Just a reminder: cooling systems failed at the No 3 reactor hours after the explosion at the No 1 reactor.
^^ It's hard not to veer from apocalypse to there's no problem,but I think a pragmatic view would be that there are serious problems (injecting seawater is a novel and DIY approach) but a meltdown is probably not on the cards,nevertheless they've got major problems,at least some core damage has happened but the reactors are shut down they've just got to get rid of the heat,so far so good.
New TEPCo press release:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031304-e.html
* High Pressure Coolant Injection System of Unit 3 automatically stopped.
We endeavored to restart the Reactor Core Isolation Cooling System but
failed. Also, we could not confirm the water inflow of Emergency Core
Cooling System. As such, we decided at 5.10AM, Mar 12, and we reported
and/or noticed the government agencies concerned to apply the clause 1 of
the Article 15 of the Radiation Disaster Measure at 5:58AM, Mar 13.
In order to fully secure safety, we operated the vent valve to reduce the
pressure of the reactor containment vessels (partial release of air
containing radioactive materials) and completed the procedure at 8:41AM,
Mar 13,
New TEPCo press release:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031304-e.html
* High Pressure Coolant Injection System of Unit 3 automatically stopped.
We endeavored to restart the Reactor Core Isolation Cooling System but
failed. Also, we could not confirm the water inflow of Emergency Core
Cooling System. As such, we decided at 5.10AM, Mar 12, and we reported
and/or noticed the government agencies concerned to apply the clause 1 of
the Article 15 of the Radiation Disaster Measure at 5:58AM, Mar 13.
In order to fully secure safety, we operated the vent valve to reduce the
pressure of the reactor containment vessels (partial release of air
containing radioactive materials) and completed the procedure at 8:41AM,
Mar 13,
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0352: The news coming from Japan remains bleak. Government spokesman Yukio Edano: "We do believe that there is a possibility that meltdown has occurred - it is inside the reactor, we can't see. However, we are acting, assuming that a meltdown has occurred and with reactor number 3 we are also assuming the possibility of a meltdown as we carry out measures."