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People are pretending that they can actually upgrade the RAM if it was not soldered. Seriously, do you want to open up the iMac? Can you even do it? Soldered or not, it's irrelevant when in order to access it, user has to gut the whole Mac. Do people here only have Mac Pros and PC desktops? I mean come on. The hard-drives on iMacs, the component that is more likely to fail, has not been user accessible for ages, yet people have no complaints. Same thing with the Macbooks. Now suddenly this is an outrage? ?

People will have complaints when they get the bill for a new motherboard due to failed ram. RAM is one of the most frequently failing components in my experience, and that includes the ram that apple ships. (there's nothing premium about it).

Having replaceable ram on a mobile phone is impractical. Not so on a desktop, or a pro laptop.

Apple is simply addicted to the yearly iPhone upgrade revenue and management wants the same from the computer line.
 
Does that matter? If you have the RAM, do you want them unused, or do you want the OS to intelligently utilize them as much as possible for caches and whatnot? I have a Macbook Air with 4GB of RAM and Mavericks, and I can run multiple instances of MS Word, Powerpoint, Safari browser, etc with no hint of slowing down. I rather have an OS with intelligent RAM management that utilize all resources so everything is transparent to me as a user.

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So, where were the outrage when the first iMac was introduced, where the hard-drive is not readily user accessible? And NOW people are outraged about soldered RAM? Come on. :rolleyes:

oh no, i'm not saying anything bad about how it's handled. just that user perception of the reporting of that handling might be swaying a lot of mis-informed users who do not comprehend properly what they are reading.

Hence why i've asked for screenshots. (nobody has obliged).

We've had people chime in with "but 4gb isn't enough! it's only 100mb free now!" or "i'm using 5.1!gb of my 8, 4gb is never enough".

but I'm questioning if they're really understanding what is being reported by the system.

It is not unusually for Osx to grab a butload of free unused memory for cache. This shouldn't actually be considered "used" memory as the system will intelligently yield it up for use by other programs, yet the system will report 3.9gb of 4Gb in use. This is misleading to the average consumer.
 
So, where were the outrage when the first iMac was introduced, where the hard-drive is not readily user accessible? And NOW people are outraged about soldered RAM? Come on. :rolleyes:

Oh, I think the outrage was there as well, I was just making the comment. Personally I do like having options such as upgradeability but it's not that big a deal to me at the end of the day, hence why my last 3 Macs have been 2 iMacs followed by my current Mac Mini. That said, I admit I upgraded the RAM in each one... :p ;)
 
if you think HTML5 is something that requires processing power, man you don't know how software works.

I checked the CPU usage in Activity Monitor. :rolleyes:

A modern smartphone is not only more powerful than a PPC iMac, but its hardware is more suited for modern web browsing thanks to all its new hardware features. You can go to simple sites on an old iMac, but try going to YouTube on that iMac G4 (which used to work fine on an iMac G3) or some HTML5-heavy site like Google with instant results enabled.

If you leave all the software on a Mac alone, the computer will still be fast for its entire lifespan. The only thing that becomes slower is the "WWW".

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Not surprisingly, many here would say that 128K is enough memory and that they'll be running Yosemite on it just fine. :)

Thanks to the magical RAM Doubler feature. No, just kidding. The RAM Doubler feature is more of a RAM halver.

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It's designed that way. Mavericks is intended to use all the memory that's available, so it does use more than other OS versions instead of just letting extra memory just sit there unused. Using memory shouldn't be a problem, only if the machine is running out of memory and doing a lot of swapping.

Swapping is exactly what happens when I try to run Mavericks on any machine. It uses all the RAM and then some. Mavericks was the first OS that caused memory issues with my computer. I had to downgrade back to ML.
 
Ive had computers since 1979 and never had memory fail. Maybe I'm luck or maybe failures are few and far between.

Haha, those old machines seem to be extra reliable. My brother resurrected a Macintosh Classic from an e-waste bin. Only after removing the RAM and ROM then washing the motherboard with soap and water in a sink (yes I'm serious), it worked. No dead RAM. And that Nintendo still works better than the RRoD'd Xbox and RRoD'd Xbox 360.
 
Swapping is exactly what happens when I try to run Mavericks on any machine. It uses all the RAM and then some. Mavericks was the first OS that caused memory issues with my computer. I had to downgrade back to ML.

I had to do the same. Granted, I have the 2gb ram version macbook air and I did expect it,

but ML runs pretty damn smooth on 2gb ram.

Mavericks does not.

even Win7 ran better than Mavericks.

this does not bode well for OSx IMHO. While all other OS's are getting more streamlined with their performance and memory footprint, OSx feels like it's going the otherway.

as long as they don't have a "vista" we should be ok
 
I had to do the same. Granted, I have the 2gb ram version macbook air and I did expect it,

but ML runs pretty damn smooth on 2gb ram.

Mavericks does not.

even Win7 ran better than Mavericks.

this does not bode well for OSx IMHO. While all other OS's are getting more streamlined with their performance and memory footprint, OSx feels like it's going the otherway.

as long as they don't have a "vista" we should be ok

It seems that Mavericks requires 8GB of RAM to run smoothly under normal usage, which is ridiculous. ML is very smooth with 4GB of RAM. Yes, Win7 has been faster than Mavericks for me too. I'm not happy about this. Do you know if Yosemite is the same?
 
It does not make sense from an economic perspective. The higher the volume, the cheaper the parts get - and therefore up goes Apple's margin.

Except nearly all the parts are already being bought by Apple in high quantities. No matter the quantities, Apple will make less profit per iMac on this new model than on the $1299 model.

BUT, if they have a "million unit" opportunity on the line that insists on certain specs (below a certain power use threshold, for example,) it might then make sense to develop this special model. And since they likely give a certain fixed percent discount, and whatever agency/organization wants this order, is willing to pay a lot, (even up to what they would pay for the $1299 iMac,) Apple might have just gone ahead and said "this one-sale volume is enough to justify this model; but this model's margins at retail aren't enough to justify it being a "mass seller" at retail. So we'll price it more than it should be for its specs."

That's one theory, any way.

Either way, this model doesn't make economic sense as a retail model. It just feels like there has to be some other justification for its existence than just "a slightly cheaper iMac" - especially since it isn't any cheaper to build!
 
Appalling decision

Glad I just built a 'powerful' NUC (similar CPU) with 27" monitor. It's much better than the new iMac. The NUC also makes a great hackintosh.
Apple are loosing the plot.
 
Either way, this model doesn't make economic sense as a retail model. It just feels like there has to be some other justification for its existence than just "a slightly cheaper iMac" - especially since it isn't any cheaper to build!

I think marketing reasons. They want people who wouldn't otherwise buy an iMac to buy one without allowing returning customers to buy the cheap one. It's like all the versions of Windows 7 that are just limited versions of Ultimate. Basic won't let you change the wallpaper without some hack.
 
People will have complaints when they get the bill for a new motherboard due to failed ram. RAM is one of the most frequently failing components in my experience, and that includes the ram that apple ships. (there's nothing premium about it).

Having replaceable ram on a mobile phone is impractical. Not so on a desktop, or a pro laptop.

Apple is simply addicted to the yearly iPhone upgrade revenue and management wants the same from the computer line.

ram is not the most frequently failing component....total bs.

power supplies and fans far outstrip ram failure, from my personal experience owning a computer store for 15 years.
 
It seems that Mavericks requires 8GB of RAM to run smoothly under normal usage, which is ridiculous. ML is very smooth with 4GB of RAM. Yes, Win7 has been faster than Mavericks for me too. Do you know if Yosemite is the same?

didn't bother getting into the beta program. Going to be sticking with ML till Yosemite gets official release and then see how well it performs by others.

I wouldn't be surprised however if Apple is forced to up the minimum requirements to 4gb. I wouldn't be upset if my 2011 2gb MBA stopped getting new OS versions, realistically, I KNEW when i bought it back in 2011 what I was getting into (I've been working with computers long enough to have reasonable expectations for hardware and it's limits)


I was just "over a barrel" so to speak at the time. Was between jobs for quite a few months. I was living on doing IT consulting on a netbook, and had an Apple gift card. it was literally the ONLY "ultrabook" laptop that was reasonable I could afford because of the gift card.

3 years later it still works flawlessly running ML. do wish I could upgrade the RAM though. that alone would breath another 3 years life out of it.

As for Mavericks, I did have it installed temporarily on a Hackintosh with 8GB ram and it ran really smoothly. I don't recall the actual memory footprint and usage or pressure.

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ram is not the most frequently failing component....total bs.

power supplies and fans far outstrip ram failure, from my personal experience owning a computer store for 15 years.

Concur. Been building systems for close to 20 years. Worked as IT manager, system building, integration at corporate level.

The most frequent failure is ALWAYS something mechanical.
Fans were the most frequent to die. Power supplies (people don't generally understand them and run them way too heavily loaded) and Hard drives. (NEVER rely on physical hard drives for constant heavy long term use)

RAM failure was not unheard of. I've had a few sticks go bad. but the rate of it's failure is low, and generally doesn't happen till they're significantly old chips (usually see failure in chips that are 8-10 years old)
 
People are pretending that they can actually upgrade the RAM if it was not soldered.

I guess you're unaware that they have made iMacs for years that have a door to easily swap RAM. Shame on them for taking that off the low end versions, and double shame on them for soldering it in this model. Frankly I hope consumers send a message and this model tanks.
 
Tipping Point and Slippery Slopes...

Don't like this trend. Not at all. Apple needs to knock this off.
Didn't have time to read all the 530-something posts, but need to add 2 cents, if only for Apple employees to read.
Note: I am a big fan of Apple products, the ecosystem, etc, and am an enrolled Apple Developer.

The Tipping Point ...
...to buying my first Apple computer - Late 2009 27" iMac. Purchase decision heavily influenced by a bit of FLEXIBILITY AND CHOICE:
- addition of Intel Processors, core i7 was brand new then
- ability to run Windows via Boot Camp - had lots of Windows programs I wanted to run
- the STILL magnificent screen - it was being touted as useable as an external second monitor via the display port - extending its usefulness beyond its years as a useful computer
- Final Cut (pre X), where a lot of professional video editors seemed to be heading. That was a bit of a bust.
- UPGRADEABLE RAM, which was then later found to be 32 GB. Awesome. I did one ram upgrade myself already. The process was EASY, with videos easily found online from reputable Apple retailers.

Result of iMac purchase
- truth is, due to business needs - run this 27" as a mac 20% of the time, and win7 pc 80%. No big agenda. That's just the way it is.
- Now to dispel the theory that using a computer for a long time prevents new purchases - not so. 27" is still my main system with SEVERAL more Apple purchases that followed. Different machines for different needs. One is even a mac 100% of the time. Love them all.​

The Slippery Slope...
... Apple - the market and computing landscape is different now - I understand. But a desktop is NOT an iPad, or a MacAir.
- If you take away enough FLEXIBILITY AND CHOICES in the desktop space, this fan may need to look elsewhere, or for alternate solutions in the future.
- Not all users have the same needs. Many have a list of needs that include upgradeable ram - me included. If you take that away for all of the machines, you may reduce potential new-customer sales for those that it is a sticking point for.
- This damages the value of your ecosystem, when it becomes LESS cost effective when evaluating return on investment for new equipment.
- It's LESS green.

So go ahead Apple - keep pushing the boundaries. But please, make sure this is an isolated case, for educational / institutional use. And KEEP the MAIN part of your desktop lineup RAM upgradeable.
Because I have NO interest in this new machine. None whatsoever.
 
I guess you're unaware that they have made iMacs for years that have a door to easily swap RAM.

I guess you're unaware that they have made Macs without easily swappable RAM as well, yet this specific instance is treated as an exceptional case. That's kinda the point of the poster you're replying to.
 
It seems that Mavericks requires 8GB of RAM to run smoothly under normal usage, which is ridiculous. ML is very smooth with 4GB of RAM. Yes, Win7 has been faster than Mavericks for me too. I'm not happy about this. Do you know if Yosemite is the same?

That's a crock. I run Mavericks perfectly on a 2011 MBA with 4GB of memory. FUD.
 
I've been running one of our old work Mac Pros at home for the last few months and I'd completely forgotten that I'd never got round to upping the ram beyond 6GB in it Nothing in its performance has made me think gee this could do with a boost on RAM side of things.

Admittedly Im not running anything graphically/memory intensive but it does sit with a shedload of stuff running all the time, plus a VM I tend to fire up for at least a couple of hours each day.

Way some folks are talking it should be near unusable with Mavericks installed, but as it is I'm happily sat in front of it 12 or more hours a day and current up-time is 15 days n counting

Course if I hadn't forgot about upping the RAM it'd probably be sat with a feelgood 32GB of the stuff in it just now (26GB of which would be serving no useful purpose..)

I appreciate its Apple but the fact they're willing to flog hard soldered 4GB laptops and 8GB all in ones tends to suggest there's not going to be major hikes in minimum RAM requirements from an OSX pov for at least a couple of years.
 
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This is totally a model for institutional customers that won't worry about updating or need to - set it and forget it.

This isn't for the Mac power enthusiast.

Agreed. Imagine in 3 years time when a boat load of these iMacs come off of corporate leases. Good value or bad??
 
Sorry, this goes on a bit longer than I intended :eek:

Like others I've got to say that the fact that the RAM in this machine is not user upgradable really doesn't matter. None of the 21.5" iMacs have user upgradable RAM. Clarification: none of the 21.5" iMacs have normal user upgradeable RAM. We, the people who come on forums like this one, would probably consider the future but the normal user (my parents, my wife, my Mother-in-Law) probably wouldn't notice or care.

I'm running Mavericks on a late 2012 iMac - the first batch of the new shape - on 8GB RAM and to be honest it's coping very well. Only the other week I had the following on the go:

Lightroom with some image editing going on
Safari with about 20 tabs open (trying to do 50 things at once!)
Handbrake encoding a 15 item queue of mkv into m4v
A messages conversation going on
Spotify streaming
2 FTP Apps downloading from two different sources
Text Wrangler editing a couple of php files

And the iMac performed wonderfully. Admittedly, Lightroom was a big hogger there - I wish Adobe would sort that out - and there were occasional slow downs, but to be honest I experience more slow downs waiting for my external HDDs to spin up on a regular basis. I am thinking of adding another 8GB but that's just to be able to keep the page in/out ratio to a more reasonable level and maybe keep Lightroom a bit happier. Ruddy thing.

Now, I'll admit that this was on one of the 3.2GHz quad core versions but, taking into account that the sort of people I mentioned earlier will rarely come close to doing half, or even a quarter, of this amount of stuff at the same time and maybe 8GB non upgradeable RAM isn't the issue it's being made out to be.

Replace "non upgradeable" with "non servicable" and you might have a point. Even Apple stuff fails, and the ridiculous efforts that need to be gone through to fix something as simple as a bad RAM issue on these sealed units (Airs, rMBP and iMacs) is nothing short of ludicrous. Logic board or complete machine swaps for a faulty batch of RAM? Really?

I'm another one who thinks the machine is just overpriced for what it is, especially it seems here in the UK. Our 20% VAT takes it to £899, but even taking that off it makes the base, pre sale tax price, £749 which I think is around $1275. I don't pretend to understand US sales tax rules but a 6% sales tax still takes the US version to less than $1200. This machine could, and should, have been a real "entry level" contender and at £700 (inc VAT) I don't think I could argue against it. But at £900? Not a chance. But, it has to fit in Apple's product line hierarchy and there's no way they'd sell it cheaper than a MacBook Air. Or put another way, only slightly more than a 64GB cellular iPad Air. Personally I think that means that a company with around $150 billion in cash should rethink their product hierarchy and pricing on a section of their business that brings in negligible revenues compared to iPhones and iPads, but we all know that's never happening.

My worry, like others, is that this is a "toe in the water" by Apple to see if a completely soldered down iMac sells well and that the next gen iMac will be as thin as a MacBook Air with solid state PCIe storage, soldered RAM and no chance of repairing anything that goes wrong on it at all. At least my current system can have its HDD and RAM replaced. RAM by me (27"), HDD by Apple.

Personally I do not want thin. Not just on my desktop, but even a laptop or - don't hate me - my phone. As consumers, do we really want thin or is what we are being told we want? I know my view.

Edit: to be clear my own view is that even before this soldered version, the 21.5" should have user servicable RAM. But they don't. We can't compare this soldered version with the previous generation of 21.5" iMac, we've got to compare it against its current product line. And that doesn't have user serviceable RAM.
 
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Consumers don't want upgradeable parts. They don't care. This is a sensible move from Apple and I support it 100%.

Um... I'm a consumer, and I would never recommend anyone buy a computer with soldered ram. I had to pay extra for my macbook pro to make sure I would have enough ram in 3 years. I have yet to buy a computer and not need a ram upgrade in a few years. I think it's pretty reasonable to be expect to be able to add more RAM and put in a bigger harddrive in a few years, especially given the prices and sizes of solid state drives.

My theory about why they did this has nothing to do with upgradability. The connectors on the ram are common points of failure, so soldering it in reduces the instance warranty repairs.
 
apples computers are becoming more un-upgradable, over-priced and underperforming.

so literally nothing you expect from a "computer". they are turning their computer into oversized tablets - no choice, no worries. thats what they think.

the configuration of the new model is not the problem, this will be more than enough for a lot of people. the trend it whats disturbing.
 
I guess you're unaware...

Did you miss where I said "Shame on them for taking that off the low end versions" or just not understand it? Next time maybe read my whole post and not just the part you quoted.
 
That's a crock. I run Mavericks perfectly on a 2011 MBA with 4GB of memory. FUD.

You've got an SSD, which makes any paging less noticeable and speeds everything up. None of the Macs I tried had SSDs. My friend and some family members report that it's much slower, too (none of them have SSDs).
 
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