Memory in New $1099 iMac is Soldered and Not Upgradable

[lordofthereef]

So, where were the outrage when the first iMac was introduced, where the hard-drive is not readily user accessible? And NOW people are outraged about soldered RAM? Come on.

If I am misunderstanding what you are saying here, or implying, forgive me.

These aren't the same thing. At all. The first one is serviceable by a reasonably skilled individual (read: repair shops that charge far less than Apple would). The latter is not serviceable really by anyone. I can almost guarantee Apple isn't going to even offer ram upgrades on soldered ram. But if they do, it will be so ridiculously cost prohibitive when compared to buying a new machine that it won't be a service most people opt for.

Further, a hard disk is simply storage. One is able to move files to other locations be that an external drive, the cloud, or what have you; there is no real requirement for that to be internal, especially not with a desktop unit such as an iMac. This really isn't an option with RAM.

 

[lordofthereef]

No, no they don't. The average consumer doesn't want to tinker with their system. They want it to just work. Most people don't want to go through the hassle of finding what RAM works in their machine and all that crap. They use something for a while and then sell and get a new one. With time machine, it's stupid easy to move all my stuff to the new laptop. Then I sell the old one for almost what I paid for it.

It's really difficult for this to not come off as condescending, so please, just trust me that this isn;t my intention...

Have you any idea how many fix-it shops, even Mac specific shops there are thriving out there? Upgrades are one of the biggest money makers for these shops. It's one of Best Buy's greatest money makers!

I totally agree that most don't want to tinker with their machines. But to think that most just toss their machine aside and get a new one when it gets sluggish is a bit of an overstatement, I think. I don't doubt there is that individual out there, but there are a fair number that seek the help they need in order to get an upgrade done. I have heard people call this "cleaning", when all that happens is it is recommended to add more hard drive space, ram, or perhaps both.

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Three things:
1) 99% of people do not care about upgradability.
2) This is a machine for education and other institutional bulk buyers where price is the number one concern.
3) If you are the 1% that DO care about upgradability, buy another model and go on living your life.

Why is this so hard for people to get?

If you care to read the reasoning of others (as well as myself), see some of my posts above. They should be on this page. I won't repeat myself since it is rather redundant.

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All of you going on and on about how terrible and underpowered and non-upgradeable this is are missing the point. We aren't the target market for this system. For the person looking for a low cost desktop system to do basic things this IS enough machine. For someone just surfing, organizing music and photos, and playing casual games it IS enough processor, it IS enough RAM, and it IS a big enough HD. Those users have no interest in cracking the case and adding RAM or upgrading the HD, if they even know what those things are. They won't be interested in rendering 3D CGI videos. Heck most probably won't even try to use iMovie or Photoshop.

So you don't like the system? Fine but you and I aren't the target market. This is for people who might get a Mac Mini but don't want to figure out what monitor would work with it.

Honestly, I would have pegged the Mac Mini as the machine for someone that wanted low cost. For $700 I can get the exact same machine (actually a much nicer processor in the mini) as I have with this new iMac ($600 if I am ok with 4GB ram). Add $200 for a decent display (no it wouldn't be an Apple display but there are some NICE $200 displays out there) and for $900 you have a machine legitimately running OSX that is, in many ways, better than this iMac.

I get where you are coming from, but for how barebones this machine in, I personally wouldn't even consider it low cost when compared to their other offerings (as I mentioned above). Hell, the tasks you just explained could be easily done on an equally specced macbook air (for the exact same price).

 

[JoeG4]

Not all of us, I saved for over a year to get my 27" iMac last year.

I chose it for the bigger screen, user upgradeable RAM and fast GPU. Also it should last longer before I need to replace it for something faster.

I was being kinda sarcastic when I said that. I still can't afford a 27" iMac heheh.

 

[Lancer]

I was being kinda sarcastic when I said that. I still can't afford a 27" iMac heheh.

Might be better off putting the money into Apple shares, I wish I had some!

 

[G4DP]

Actually Apple is very green.

http://www.mactrast.com/2014/04/new...ves-apple-high-ranking-green-internet-report/

Greenpeace, Green? Pull the other one. They waste as much paper on junk mail as anyone, they trudge around in ships that should have been scrapped decades ago burning tons of oil/coal.

They are a hypocritical bunch, no you're right a great match for Apple.

 

[loon3y]

I am going to assume that you haven't really read the debate in the thread. If you have, and you truly don't understand it, let's talk about precedence.

A few short years ago all of Apple's laptop batteries were removable. Presumably this was because the battery has the shortest average expected lifespan of any component in a laptop, and therefore it is reasonable to expect a new battery will be needed before the product reaches end of life. Apple started soldering the batteries in the name of making the machine thinner (and maybe lighter, not sure if those claims were made) with the MacBook air. Now, ALL of their laptops come with a soldered, non-removable battery. Should this be something you want to service, you will need an Apple (or otherwise certified) professional to do it for you; certainly it is within the realm of possibility for many hobbyists, but for the average user, not so much.

Now we move forward to a soldered RAM which, to my knowledge, Apple hasn't come out and made any claims about why they went this route. Is the machine thinner? Lighter? Will this become the new norm? We have seen on this very site various configurations where it is cheaper to buy directly from Apple using configuration X and then upgrading with parts from company Y, rather than going with Apple's own upgrades. Are they testing the waters in order to see how sales go to perhaps, one day, move over to 100% soldered ram? Who knows? But that is the fear and discussion, for the most part, that is happening in this thread. Who is being served here? Is it the customer? Or is it actually just Apple?

I thought I would add my own experience with a late 2009 27" iMac. It came with 4GB of ram and 1TB 7200RPM HDD. Those were fine, at the time. I recently upgraded to 16GB RAM and a 250GB SSD with a 2TB external for media. In total, this cost me around $400, and I feel like I have a brand new computer. The RAM is easy for just about anyone to do, even a person who has never done it (jus ****ch a youtube video). The HDD to SSD swap was more challenging, and not likely something the average consumer would try and tackle, though it was doable. Even so, had either of these components been soldered, we would be talking about a new computer, more than likely.

TLDR: Today Apple stills sells a soldered and an end user servicable RAM configuration, much like they did with MacBook batteries, initially. There is absolutely risk of soldered ram bleeding into future releases of the higher end models of iMacs as well.

did you read my post? they're still selling the other iMac Models with upgradable Harddrive and Ram.

The $1,099 dollar iMac runs a dual core, its obvious its for the very basic user.

They have to sell other models for Businesses, unless they want to be set back again by Microsoft and PCs, for upgradable purposes.

like our office iMac 27" we use it for an IIS Server that runs parallel. you're saying Apple is going to solder everything in like the Labtops? i highly, highly, doubt that.

If they were to implement soldering in all iMacs why no the Mac Pro as well? The Mac Minis? whats going to happen when you need to upgrade a bit after 2 years, they're going to force you to buy new iMacs for your whole office?


i really dont think so, and this is my opinion. not saying this is the route they're going to go.

but if they really solder everything, what business is going to buy iMacs for their office?

Yes maybe US or Europe, although it would be huge on company expenses can afford it, but guys in 2nd and 3rd world countries like China, Vietnam, India isn't going to afford them.

Just seems like a huge blunder to me, if they want to continue to sell to the business market. It'll just make the business industry stick to PCs.

It really seems like they're just doing it for the base model.

 

[s2mikey]

Non upgradeable hardware seems so wrong. But, I bought a MacBook Pro and love it anyways. Although, I'll admit that in three or four years if it starts to real lack RAM then it will be somewhat disappointing to think I can't so anything about it. I went with 8GB. That should do me good.

 

[gnasher729]

Non upgradeable hardware seems so wrong. But, I bought a MacBook Pro and love it anyways. Although, I'll admit that in three or four years if it starts to real lack RAM then it will be somewhat disappointing to think I can't so anything about it. I went with 8GB. That should do me good.

I do not actually know anyone privately who has upgraded their computer. Ever. There are a few people (friends and relatives) whose computer _I_ have upgraded, which included buying the parts because apparently using the internet to buy things or going to a shop is too difficult. And these people wouldn't have upgraded if I hadn't done it.

And I bet nobody here knows whether Dell, HP etc. use soldered RAM or not. I surely cannot imagine >500 posts anywhere because these companies use soldered RAM in some computer. And Dell gets around complaints of low clock speed and having only two cores by advertising the maximum clock speed (which Apple only does in the small print) without displaying the sustained speed at all, and by not mentioning the number of cores anywhere.

 

[MacModMachine]

Read it again: "one of". I've seen a ton of power supplies fail; most were using those cheap Chinese capacitors. Almost as many motherboards. I saw imacs have both the motherboard and power supply fail within weeks of each other due to crap caps. But if you're not using crap power supplies, failures are not common.

Source: 10+ years working in IT.

oh i read it ,

its not "one of", i have seen 5 memory failures tops, if memory is handled and installed properly , they wont fail.

 

[OneMike]

Wow this just went from bad to worse

 

[EmlynDewar]

Sound very much like Dell Computers. The computer company that customers hate! Making things cheap, and Apple wants to be like Dell?

I love Dell.
You get what you pay for, and they have machines at pretty much every price point.
Their ProSupport is brilliant.

Really don't understand the hatred for the new imac. Don't like it? No problem, no-one is making you buy one! They still have the other models available...

The only place I think it goes wrong is with the price, it's too high.
For £899, it should have the 256gb SSD fitted. This should be a £799 machine at standard spec.

 

[m98custom1212]

Maybe you shouldn't be using Outlook and Chrome then?

Really it all depends on how the software is written. Also, OS X has made huge strides with things like memory compression. OS X can move things efficiently in and out of RAM and then compress/decompress it in place faster than it could access the RAM in the first place. So at some point it makes more sense to make the OS smarter and the software lighter to achieve the same goals. The OS could also hibernate apps that are not running, only allowing certain functions to remain active (similar to iOS). Mavericks and now Yosemite have these power and performance saving features.

I think it's lazy programming if Chrome is taking up 2 GB of RAM sitting still.

Also keep in mind that memory management in OS X is odd. It may allocate a ton of RAM to something but it's not being used. The system runs with access to as much RAM as possible but may not need it right away.

Need to use outlook for work and chrome works the best Imo. Not a big deal because I have 64 gb of ram

 

[LordVic]

did you read my post? .

oh, the Irony


you didn't read his. Nor anyone who is talking in here. It's clear by your statement.

Nobody is arguing that this is only in the base model and that the other models with upgradable and user servicable parts are there.

What they're arguing is that, given apple's history, this sets a precedence in the iMac space.

Now that they' have 1 all soldered, non upgradable, non serviceable part, should sales be successful, given the history of Apples other product lines, many are afraid that they will continue down this 'slippery slope' and start slowly replacing the other models of iMac's with the similar technology.

That is argument #1.

Argument #2 is that, moving to using the ULV based CPU and components made absolutely no sense from a consumer standpoint. They tend to be more expensive than their larger mobile or desktop components, but yield significantly lower performance per dollar. All the while being non servicable and non upgradable.

Argument #3 is that, since this is a Desktop computer, and given #2, the performance is going to be far less than most people expect. Including Soccer mom and dad. 2-3 years from now, while the computer will still work, many wll start thinking that they have to replace it, since it might not just keep up very well anymore. This computer itself is not a good value for the dollar amount.

Apple is essentially doing a "bait and switch" here. In a round about way here. They're offering for a few bucks less, a severely crippled piece of hardware that will see a very limited usage lifespan. Once they have you in OSx ecosystem, and you decide that you need more power / resources, you have very little choice but to go buy another iMac every 3 years.

It's a purposeful business tactic that Apple is using to try and bring more useres into the ecosystem and lock them in by tempting you with "low cost" machine. Meanwhile, there is no real benefit to the consumer and it is a pure WIN/WIN only for Apple and their bottom line.

 

[mikeorchard]

This thread is ridiculous.

The average consumer couldn't upgrade the ram on the previous base 21.5" iMac and a lot of us nerds couldn't be arsed because removing the screen, the logic board and replacing the adhesive afterwards was a massive pain in the backside. We've had that situation for nearly 2 years now and sales of iMacs have only increased so clearly it wasn't a deal breaker for anyone.

My only concern with this model is the hard drive. That's the weak point across the entire Mac range still. Apple needs to make SSDs standard.

 

[jacobj]

I do not actually know anyone privately who has upgraded their computer. Ever. There are a few people (friends and relatives) whose computer _I_ have upgraded, which included buying the parts because apparently using the internet to buy things or going to a shop is too difficult. And these people wouldn't have upgraded if I hadn't done it.

And I bet nobody here knows whether Dell, HP etc. use soldered RAM or not. I surely cannot imagine >500 posts anywhere because these companies use soldered RAM in some computer. And Dell gets around complaints of low clock speed and having only two cores by advertising the maximum clock speed (which Apple only does in the small print) without displaying the sustained speed at all, and by not mentioning the number of cores anywhere.

I think that most people have access to someone like you and therefore the upgrade option is often open to them.

I have done this dozens of times and I'm not in the tech industry, nor do I consider myself particularly techie.

I recently bought the rMBP and had to accept the limitations of that machine as far as upgrades go. That was forced upon me as I needed a high end spec laptop and it had to run OSX. it's a beautiful machine, but I would have accepted a mm or 2 thicker for user upgradable RAM at the drop of a hat.

The issue for many of us is that Apple falsely claims to be an Eco friendly company and yet actively makes their hardware to a spec that reduces it's potential working life. The notion that it is recyclable doesn't justify frequent recycling.

In 2-3 years time I will retire the rMBP as the RAM will be an issue (it's used for PS work at that app gets more hungry for RAM with every release).

Dell'a lowest entries don't come in at $1,099.

 

[mikeorchard]

The issue for many of us is that Apple falsely claims to be an Eco friendly company and yet actively makes their hardware to a spec that reduces it's potential working life.

Preventing a tiny minority of people from upgrading the 8GB of RAM on this machine isn't really reducing it's potential working life. If it had been 4GB standard, perhaps, but 8GB is perfectly enough for the target audience of this entry level machine for years to come. The mechanical HDD or relatively slow CPU are more likely to become an issue before the RAM, and they haven't been upgradeable (not easily anyway) for years (The same goes for a lot of Windows PCs too). At the same time, Apple has improved it's green credentials according to independent organisations by leaps and bounds.

There's an awful lot of hyperbole around here, as usual.

 

[jacobj]

Preventing a tiny minority of people from upgrading the 8GB of RAM on this machine isn't really reducing it's potential working life. If it had been 4GB standard, perhaps, but 8GB is perfectly enough for the target audience of this entry level machine for years to come. The mechanical HDD or relatively slow CPU are more likely to become an issue before the RAM, and they haven't been upgradeable (not easily anyway) for years (The same goes for a lot of Windows PCs too). At the same time, Apple has improved it's green credentials according to independent organisations by leaps and bounds.

There's an awful lot of hyperbole around here, as usual.

the hyperbole as you call it is not because 8GB or RAM is poor for a machine of today. It is to do with Apple pressing ever more in the wrong direction.

Regardless of what Apple tell you in their keynotes, their PC sales have been poor compared to market expectations and they have failed to truly capitalise on the iPhone, iPad halo.

The reason is that people may fork out $xxx on a phone that gets them kudos in public, but they will seek opinion on a desktop or laptop. When they find that their way in is on an overpriced, hunk of junk, they walk away.

I am the first to defend the value of Apple's upper end machines, but these low end devices are indefensible and will often be people's first experience of a non-iPhone, non-iPad Apple device.

The issue here seems to be that Apple appears to accept low margins in the early part of a product's lifecycle and watch them increase as the component cost descreases. They must project across the lifecycle.

What happens in this case is that the components are already cheap and unlikely to reduce much further. As a result Apple demand those higher margins at the outset. What this highlights to all of us is that Apple demand ridiculous margins overall.

The lack of upgradeability makes them all the more overpriced as there is nothing a reseller can do to spruce up the machine at an affordable price.

 

[IGregory]

I don't understand why this new iMac is an issue. if you don't like buy a different model.

 

[SusanK]

Does the hood open on your car?

I own a car. Three cars actually. I am not a mechanic. I am mindful of gauges, bulb check, fluid levels, tire pressure etc. The fancy part of my mechanical skills is storing seasonal vehicles on BatteryTender.

I do not know how to do repairs. I do not want to learn to diagnose and repair my cars. I have a mechanic who knows how to do these things well.

I would not buy a car if the hood did not open.

Would you?

 

[Bibbler]

This is a good example of "reality distortion field." When I was a wee little thing, maybe 3 or 4, my flashlight stopped working. I walked up to my dad, who taught me how to change the battery. And voila! Flashlight worked again.

Apple Fanatics would label you a "tinkerer"

 

[Garbonzo]

Low-end laptop performance for workstation prices, sad.

Even at the $2k price point they are selling only mid-range i5's. Compare this to what you can get with a Hackintosh for half the price, and it is very disappointing.

I've been looking to upgrade my wife's 4 year old imac, and while I don't mind paying a bit of an Apple tax, I also don't want to feel fleeced for deeply sub-par hardware. Oh well.

 

[2984839]

did you read my post? they're still selling the other iMac Models with upgradable Harddrive and Ram.

The $1,099 dollar iMac runs a dual core, its obvious its for the very basic user.

They have to sell other models for Businesses, unless they want to be set back again by Microsoft and PCs, for upgradable purposes.

like our office iMac 27" we use it for an IIS Server that runs parallel. you're saying Apple is going to solder everything in like the Labtops? i highly, highly, doubt that.

If they were to implement soldering in all iMacs why no the Mac Pro as well? The Mac Minis? whats going to happen when you need to upgrade a bit after 2 years, they're going to force you to buy new iMacs for your whole office?


i really dont think so, and this is my opinion. not saying this is the route they're going to go.

but if they really solder everything, what business is going to buy iMacs for their office?

Yes maybe US or Europe, although it would be huge on company expenses can afford it, but guys in 2nd and 3rd world countries like China, Vietnam, India isn't going to afford them.

Just seems like a huge blunder to me, if they want to continue to sell to the business market. It'll just make the business industry stick to PCs.

It really seems like they're just doing it for the base model.

People were saying that about soldered ram and non removable batteries with the MacBook Air too. Now you cannot buy a new MBP without them, regardless of how high end it is.

The point is that they've done this kind of thing before and it was passed off as just being for the low end models. Then it found its way into the high end ones too. A non removable battery is what prevented me from buying a Retina MBP. Instead of giving Apple my money, I gave it to a local seller for a 2011 model.

I'm sure very few people out there think like I do though. Apple isn't hurting despite moving the MBP line to non removable RAM, non removable batteries, and non standard hard disk connections.

 

[Toltepeceno]

All steps on the same road. The nMP has most pieces soldered/bolted in. (removable parts don't count when there is nothing to replace them with)

The shareholders will retire off their stock profits, and every single bad RAM chip will lead to :

1. New Logic Board ($800)
2. New iMac ($1,000)

Win/win for Apple

Bingo, give the man a cuban.

 

[Bibbler]

24 Pages - Unbelieveable....

Whining, complaining, or praising this machine is a waste of time. I'm not going to change anyone's mind - and no one is going to change mine...

I'd never buy this thing, to me it's overpriced junk - but to each their own. I would just say that based on my experience, knowledge, and expertise, I would never recommend this machine to anyone. But everyone is free to spend their money any way they wish...

I will say this - This machine represents a continuation of the Car/Truck "Post-PC" theory Jobs spoke about (although this is a PC) and not a Post-PC Device. It is closer to a consumer device than a PC (as I think about it). In coming years the ability to add or swap out RAM will seem minor when more and more PC's are produced with SOC's. You literally will be unable to change anything about the machine.

The 21" iMac is a car in the computer world. I just hope Apple continues to make trucks and this is not the beginning of a direction Apple intends to take on all PC's (or manufactures continue to produce components to allow us to roll our own.)

 

[capathy21]

Some very interesting opinions in this long but entertaining thread. Several points to make.

1)Apple did this to maximize profit. Of course they did. They are a private company with shareholders and a bottom line to meet. Just like every other private company, their number one goal is to maximize profits. This is nothing new nor should it shock anyone.

2)The consumer this machine was designed for. My wife, my mom, all but one of my closest friends, my dad, hell everyone I know outside of a couple of geeks don't have a clue how to plug in an ethernet cord let alone change out ram.

When I worked in the wireless industry it was the same thing about the original iPhone. No removal battery? No memory card slot? Who is going to want that??? As usual Apple was ahead of the game and now essentially Samsung is the last big smartphone manufacturer to have removable batteries or sd card slots. A very small group of people require (or think they NEED) these options. For 95 percent of users, it doesn't matter.

3)We are in the post PC age. Steve Jobs vision has become a reality. For a majority of users, their phone or their ipad is their computer, young people (highschool aged and a little older) have no concept of a family desktop computer, they are plugged in in other ways. For those that still require a desktop, this new machine will be more than enough for 95 percent of users for at least 3 years. Computer repair/parts shops have gone by the wayside just like the tv repair man.

What happens when your tv goes out. You replace it. This may be good or bad depending on your viewpoint but guess what? It's the world we live in. People don't buy a computer to use for 7-10 years, they need something that works now and is good for their current needs. Again for 95 percent of users. This new imac is fine. As previously stated by many, power users won't look twice at this machine because it's not designed for them in mind.

As another post stated, future proofing is for the most part, a waste of money especially on a mac where the resale value is so good. Too many people are still in the archaic windows pc mentality where you blow a bunch of money on buying more power than you need just to make yourself feel better.

I recently purchased a BASE MODEL Macbook Air. I am not a power user but I do a little bit more than the average user. 4 gigs of ram is MORE THAN ENOUGH for me for at least 2-3 years if not longer. I am not a programmer, I do not do video editing, I do a very little amount of photo editing. I am most users. I could use the new imac with everything I do and never run into a hitch for the next 2-5 years as it is essentially my Macbook Air with twice the ram.

This notion that Mavericks barely runs on 4gig of ram and needs 8 is laughable. It runs without a hitch on my friends 4 year old Air with 2 gigs of ram. I just don't understand people thinking they need so much more power than they actually do. My Windows 8.1 Dell machine(now a clunker compared to my AIR) only had 3gig of ram with a standard hard drive and still ran pretty much flawlessly.

There is a market for power users who need a very powerful machine. There is also a market for those who like to be able to upgrade their machine. It is however, a very small portion of the overall consumer base. Apple makes their design decisions on the best way to please the MAJORITY of users, while still maximizing profits. That is to make thin, light and great looking products which will be more than enough power for most users.

I know how to swap a hard drive. I know how to replace ram. Am I upset that my Air's internals cannot be upgraded? Hell no, it just works like it is designed to do.

The same goes for this new imac. Users purchase it, take it home and set it up and that's it. The software is second to none, as is the keyboard and overall user experience. They don't need the ability to add more ram or change out their hard drive. That's the whole appeal of Apple products. There's no extra steps involved, just like the iphone, it just works and makes your life easier.