At the minimum provide Vulkan capable GPU drivers so Windows games can be run under Linux/MacOS with WineHQ compatibility layer with very low overhead on top of Vulkan's epic frame rate while waiting for games to be ported.
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Metal Developer Tools on Windows Offer New Gaming Opportunities
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I see many arguments about how Metal performs, but ease of use also counts. AFAIK, Metal is way easier than DX12 to program.
Developers tools are important too. Microsoft's tools are probably best in class, but the Metal tools are not bad either. Way better than what we had with openGL.
But most importantly, Apple now controls the both GPU hardware and the 3D API, which no one else in the whole computer industry does. This allows complete control over their GPU design and how they are used. Vulkan would not allow that.
If Apple were to design a game console, they would technically be in a better position than anyone else. However, they would be disadvantaged by being late to the party.
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Still, maintaining 30 fps at 1080p on this game is not bad at all for an iGPU. No intel GPU can do that.
Developers tools are important too. Microsoft's tools are probably best in class, but the Metal tools are not bad either. Way better than what we had with openGL.
But most importantly, Apple now controls the both GPU hardware and the 3D API, which no one else in the whole computer industry does. This allows complete control over their GPU design and how they are used. Vulkan would not allow that.
If Apple were to design a game console, they would technically be in a better position than anyone else. However, they would be disadvantaged by being late to the party.
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The game was not maxed out, far from it. And we don't know if there was a fan, we didn't see the machine they used.They ran tomb raider Maxed out, on an iPad chip...
with NO FAN?
And a PERFORMANCE HIT on Rosetta?
WHAT!?
Still, maintaining 30 fps at 1080p on this game is not bad at all for an iGPU. No intel GPU can do that.
Yet obviously enough users had a problem with it for a hot fix to go out on February 7th this year
Hotfixes: October 16, 2020 - WoW
Here you will find a list of hotfixes that address various issues related to World of Warcraft: Battle For Azeroth and WoW Classic.
worldofwarcraft.com
It causes kernel panics. User mode software can't cause kernel panics.
Now its usually user mode software that will trigger problematic behaviour in kernel mode code in some manner (such as graphics drivers), but it is a fault of the driver that it is not handled.
Yet obviously enough users had a problem with it for a hot fix to go out on February 7th this year
Hotfixes: October 16, 2020 - WoW
Here you will find a list of hotfixes that address various issues related to World of Warcraft: Battle For Azeroth and WoW Classic.
It causes kernel panics. User mode software can't cause kernel panics.
Now its usually user mode software that will trigger problematic behaviour in kernel mode code in some manner (such as graphics drivers), but it is a fault of the driver that it is not handled.
Thanks for the info, actually appreciate the learning news here. Very interesting... though like any maturing API it'll get to pinnacle point performance wise and we'll be good, but yeah, wow.
Good stuff man
Nope, Apple was notoriously behind. They never updated or fixed bugs. The last version Apple shipped was OpenGL 4.1, which was 5 versions and 8 years behind when they announced it was deprecated in Catalina.
Basically, Apple stopped updates of OpenGL in 2010.
Lots of great graphs ... but what exactly am I to determine while looking at this?
In a nutshell, only a 7% hit in performance running Doom Eternal Windows native Vulkan game binary in Linux with Wine compatibility layer. AMDGPU-PRO, MDVLK AND RADV are different Linux Vulkan GPU drivers with the first provided by AMD and the other two open source drivers. Wine is available for MacOS Mojave so the only missing piece is MacOS Vulkan GPU drivers to open up the possibilities of accessing and running the huge library of Windows games in MacOS with similar performance.
maybe in a mac pro with a proper gpu, and not a mobile option. laptops have pretty lackluster gaming performance and that's even when bootcamping windows and running drivers made by someone who knows what they're doing
I think many people on here are so hyped about the new Mac Silicon they are overlooking details about gaming or they simply don't understand it.
Apple Arcade is not gaming for anyone over 8 or under 65.
Phone games are not console games or PC games.
Console games are not PC games or phone games.
PC games are not phone games or console games.
Even a company as well renowned as Blizzard doesn't even understand their own market. They Bought our Diablo on phones at their Blizzcon and when their PC gamer crowd was shocked and many booed, their only response was "DOnt you guys have phones?"
PC gamers are a different breed than the others. Apple is going to have to get PC Games in their AAA titles and something like Tomb Raider is not it. Thats more of a console type game.
Apple Arcade is not gaming for anyone over 8 or under 65.
Phone games are not console games or PC games.
Console games are not PC games or phone games.
PC games are not phone games or console games.
Even a company as well renowned as Blizzard doesn't even understand their own market. They Bought our Diablo on phones at their Blizzcon and when their PC gamer crowd was shocked and many booed, their only response was "DOnt you guys have phones?"
PC gamers are a different breed than the others. Apple is going to have to get PC Games in their AAA titles and something like Tomb Raider is not it. Thats more of a console type game.
A Mac Pro - or desktop is NOT where the money is -- overall desktops make up a very small part of the overall market (22.6% Desktops, 42.4% laptops, 35% Tablets) and shrinking. Fortnight for mobile (of which the vast majority of that would be Apple) had revenue of $1 billion up until this point... that type of revenue is a very good incentive for developers to optimize games to the entire platform. The market is larger for 'post PC' than 'PC' or 'console'.
I have no doubt Apple can develop similar technology that benefits games (if they want to) as AMD... Apple likely already has more than likely more chip designers (and some common design roots) as AMD.... and much more of a war chest they can invest. Apple does however prioritize some investment that can be reused in multiple situations - so I could see an Apple TV focused box that has the performance of a console, that could also be used in a mainstream compact desktop (maybe a bit bigger than the Mac Mini) [Apple TV entry, Apple TV mainstream, Apple TV Pro].
The question is -- is it worth it to Apple. We can only dream, or guess as to what Apple will come out with (gen 1, gen 2) in the way of power...
I've long given up on Mac gaming. But I do have to admit that Apple Arcade is the one area where Mac gaming could slowly grow because the iPhone is much more popular and especially once Macs are on AARM. Kinda sad I'll have to give up Bootcamp on future Macs, but that just gives me an excuse to finally build a gaming PC like I used to do many years ago. Or maybe just push me to 100% console gaming.
Counterexample: PUBG, Fortnite and Minecraft Mobile.
Counterexample: those very same games. PUBG, Fortnite, Minecraft, Apex Legends, Call of Duty. Even Sims 4 has seen success on console.
That still doesn’t make sense. Xbox One. One. PS5. Five. 1 < 5. So naming it Xbox two wouldn’t matter.
And yes I do believe parents will be confused between the Xbox One X and Xbox One Series X. "Maybe my kid meant the Xbox One X". I know even a few gamers, pc gamers but know hardware, that are confused before I told them.
That could be a bug in the driver (coded by the GPU vendor), which is an implementation of Metal, not necessarily a bug in Metal.
But as GPU drivers (hopefully) move away from kernel extensions and adopt the new driver model, those kernel panics will be a thing of the past.
Doom Eternal is one of the few Windows games using Vulkan - most others using Direct3d. Not convinced it would help the Mac providing Vulkan support.
Its no use if only Apple is going to use Metal, they have to get the 3rd party on board and I doubt they will. They have not for the past 3 decades I guess. Whats wrong with Vulkan? Wasn't that supposed to fix all the issues with OpenGL?
The hardware is only one part of the problem, they also need to have the user base to make it worth it for game developers and that the thing they don't have and ARM is not going to fix that.
Also how can the switch to ARM mean that it will support "much better graphics"? What does the GPU have to do with the CPU in the first place?
The best high performance desktop/server grade GPU's are and will continue to be made by AMD and Nvidia.
Well Vulkan is the number 2 most supported API by AAA Game studios so it's not a bad idea to support this API. Metal has been less successful and I don't see how this will change.
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There are other AAA Windows games that use Vulkan. For example Red Dead Redemption 2, Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Breakpoint, The Surge 2, RAGE 2, Wolfenstein: Youngblood, Zombie Army 4: Dead War etc. None of them are present on MacOS.
There are more games that support Vulkan than Metal.
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Regardless of the technical side, in the coming years there's going to be a much larger increase for demand for mac gaming. Since the Intel transition, if you wanted to game on your mac, the logical move was to boot into windows. With Apple Silicon, that's no longer going to be possible. So, people that wan to game on their Macs will be doing it in MacOS.
I don't think any of the above is debatable.
I don't think any of the above is debatable.
We differ in opinion. I doubt anyone would be confused accept people who know nothing about the product. The most cursory examination would remove any confusion. The systems look absolutely nothing alike, and the pricing will be vastly different. Couple that with the insane amount of marketing MS is about to unload... anyone still confused has bigger problems than differentiating gaming consoles. No parent dropping $300 to $600 on a console is going in blind. There's an entire internet of info out there. It's a terrible name. Yes. But not because it's going to cause someone to be confused. It's just a terrible name.
This is very dependent on studios porting their games to Mac including optimizing for the Mac. There is a reason why people still play the Windows bootcamp version over the native Mac version. If studios just port over their mobile game to desktop, that is solving a problem few asked for.
So yes, it’s still very much debatable.
When talking about Apple's move to its in-house, souped-up ARM silicon it's not just the CPU getting swapped. Apple builds systems-on-a-chip (SOC), meaning their silicon bundles the CPU, GPU and a plethora of other processing units and accelerators. That's what the GPU has to do with the CPU.
I haven't followed the discussions closely so I don't know where the bar has been set in this particular exchange, but Apple GPUs have for a long time shown performance well above Mac IGPUs. So maybe that's what's being referred to.
Open GL is dead on the Mac platform. Why support Vulkan? Do you think Apple is going to be subject to the whims and fantasy of the same 'ball game?'
Why bother fixing GL.
Do something better yourself. And they are. And they can tune it to their own hardware without waiting or going cap in hand to someone else. We've seen the fruits of what you can do with iPhone when you control the software or hardware. Same in iPad. They're class leading devices.
Now try to imagine the Mac as a class leading computer in apps and gaming. (No. Really. Try to imagine it...because it's coming.)
3 decades of mostly crap Open gl performance with Macs as 2nd rate gaming citizens. 'Good bye to that.'
Metal is in millions of iOS apps. They're coming to 'AS Mac' from day one. They don't have to get 3rd parties on board. They're already here.
Consumer AS Mac? BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM! Apps. Millions of them.
That's an order of magnitude that sweeps aside their previous puny two decades of 'failure.'
Azrael.
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Increasingly it seems to be more about the bottom line at Blizzard since the merger with Activision who seem to be slowly gaining control in that merger of 'equals?'
Azrael.
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And that would explain where Apple is going with its initiatives in gaming and moving the Mac to the 'A' family of chips.
Who wants to be an 'after' thought?
Azrael.
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I don't think that's true on the Mac+PC, and that's definitely false if you include all Apple platforms.