Microsoft Admits Windows Phone is Basically Dead

[Delgibbons]

Keep hope alive. Microsoft is NOT going to be producing a Windows (of any variety) phone anymore.

MSPU

Windows 10 on ARM bits show up on Microsoft servers

by Mehedi Hassan


@mehedih_

Sep 12, 2017 at 7:22 GMT


Windows 10 on ARM devices are set to launch later this year, potentially in time for the holidays. A recent build of Windows 10 had a number of files related to Windows 10 on ARM (ARM64), and it seems like Microsoft has already started uploading ARM64 builds of Windows 10 for Windows Update.

A number of files for Windows 10 ARM64 build 16281 are now available for download from the Windows Update servers, as noticed by a member of the My Digital Life forums. The ARM64 files also seem to be available for different SKUs such as Windows 10 S (aka Cloud), Enterprise, Pro, and more. These builds aren’t the regular ISOs that you can simply download and install, but they are instead files used by the Unified Update Platform (UUP) on Windows 10. As a result, you will need to combine all the different UUP files in order to actually make the full ISO. These files also suggest that Windows 10 on ARM devices will be supported by the Windows Insider program, just like any other Windows 10 PCs.

You can find all the different ARM64 files and download links here, but here’s a quick list of some of the file names:

• arm64fre_Client_en-us_lp.esd
• Microsoft-Windows-EditionPack-Enterprise-arm64arm-Package.ESD
• Microsoft-Windows-EditionSpecific-Cloud-arm64arm-Package.ESD
• Microsoft-Windows-EditionSpecific-CoreSingleLanguage-arm64arm-Package.ESD
• Microsoft-Windows-RegulatedPackages-arm64arm-Package.ESD
• Microsoft-Windows-WowPack-CoreARM-arm64arm-Package.ESD

Even though there was a bit of speculation about Windows 10 on ARM being delayed recently, a Microsoft spokesperson confirmed that the software maker is still on track for a release later this year: “We are on track to see Windows 10 on Snapdragon devices become available this year as previously shared. Microsoft and Qualcomm continue to work closely with our OEM partners ASUS, HP and Lenovo in bringing Always Connected devices featuring always-on LTE connectivity and great battery life to market.”

Microsoft and its OEM partners will likely start revealing the hardware for Windows 10 on ARM in the coming months, so things will get quite interesting sometime soon. Microsoft has a new Surface event lined up for October, and with the Windows 10 Fall Creators Update launching in the same month, we probably aren’t too far from the official release of Windows 10 on ARM.

 

[Howl's Castle]

As has happened before, Microsoft just couldn’t see the future.

And neither could Apple with these products:
1. iPod Hi-Fi
2. Apple Newton
3. MobileMe
4. Hockey Puck Mouse
5. ROKR

 

[Cloudkicker]

Windows phone was never competitive. I don’t think it’s marketshare every broke into double digits.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Mac OS ever gotten past double digits penetration in 35 years?

 

[sinsin07]

Ah so only software that is forced onto most people by their IT and not by their own choice.

Gotcha.

That explains enterprise.
What about the people who by Windows personal computers for home use?

 

[jayducharme]

And neither could Apple with these products:
1. iPod Hi-Fi
2. Apple Newton
3. MobileMe
4. Hockey Puck Mouse
5. ROKR

I'll agree with you on the mouse. But in all the other cases, Apple was ahead of its time; it was admittedly too far ahead with the Newton, and it didn't have the technology ready with the ROKR (and didn't control the tech). Add Siri, and the iPod HiFi is what's now being offered by Amazon and Google (and soon Apple), just in a different package.

 

[convergent]

MSPU

Windows 10 on ARM bits show up on Microsoft servers

by Mehedi Hassan


@mehedih_

Sep 12, 2017 at 7:22 GMT

Windows 10 on ARM devices are set to launch later this year, potentially in time for the holidays. A recent build of Windows 10 had a number of files related to Windows 10 on ARM (ARM64), and it seems like Microsoft has already started uploading ARM64 builds of Windows 10 for Windows Update.

A number of files for Windows 10 ARM64 build 16281 are now available for download from the Windows Update servers, as noticed by a member of the My Digital Life forums. The ARM64 files also seem to be available for different SKUs such as Windows 10 S (aka Cloud), Enterprise, Pro, and more. These builds aren’t the regular ISOs that you can simply download and install, but they are instead files used by the Unified Update Platform (UUP) on Windows 10. As a result, you will need to combine all the different UUP files in order to actually make the full ISO. These files also suggest that Windows 10 on ARM devices will be supported by the Windows Insider program, just like any other Windows 10 PCs.

You can find all the different ARM64 files and download links here, but here’s a quick list of some of the file names:

• arm64fre_Client_en-us_lp.esd
• Microsoft-Windows-EditionPack-Enterprise-arm64arm-Package.ESD
• Microsoft-Windows-EditionSpecific-Cloud-arm64arm-Package.ESD
• Microsoft-Windows-EditionSpecific-CoreSingleLanguage-arm64arm-Package.ESD
• Microsoft-Windows-RegulatedPackages-arm64arm-Package.ESD
• Microsoft-Windows-WowPack-CoreARM-arm64arm-Package.ESD

Even though there was a bit of speculation about Windows 10 on ARM being delayed recently, a Microsoft spokesperson confirmed that the software maker is still on track for a release later this year: “We are on track to see Windows 10 on Snapdragon devices become available this year as previously shared. Microsoft and Qualcomm continue to work closely with our OEM partners ASUS, HP and Lenovo in bringing Always Connected devices featuring always-on LTE connectivity and great battery life to market.”

Microsoft and its OEM partners will likely start revealing the hardware for Windows 10 on ARM in the coming months, so things will get quite interesting sometime soon. Microsoft has a new Surface event lined up for October, and with the Windows 10 Fall Creators Update launching in the same month, we probably aren’t too far from the official release of Windows 10 on ARM.

I didn't read through all of this, but I believe we are talking about an ARM based Surface here, not a phone. You are in the wrong "Microsoft is dead, long live Apple" thread!

 

[AtomicGrog]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Mac OS ever gotten past double digits penetration in 35 years?

Depends where you look but in general terms yes it has, it happened a couple of years ago. It was broadly the same year windows dropped below 90%

If you want to pick on an OS which hasn't gained appreciable market share look at Linux. For all it's press the desktop coverage is still 2% or thereabouts. I find the stat odd as I frequently come across it, but then again I'm a bit to a tech/IT freak

 

[convergent]

Feelings not a part of the equation.
Nor is "going slow" unless you don't understand what you previous wrote.

If you presume to give:

than be accurate.


Yeah about that:

Bloomberg television has an interesting video up of Salesforce CEO Marc Benioff who shares an anecdote on how Apple chairman Steve Jobs helped him out with his unique insights on Enterprise Software (!!):

He has probably given me more help and more advice than just about anybody. And when I get in trouble and I kinda get lost in my own vision, I’ve been fortunate to be able to go and see him and he’s been willing to show me the future a couple times.

He then goes on to explain how in 2003 Jobs praised Salesforce’s “fantastic enterprise application” and advised him to dream bigger and think about the wider “ecosystem”. Salesforce took it at face value and built an app store of sorts dubbed App Exchange. However, they loved the app store term so much that they bought a URL and trademarked it. Benioff was later in the audience when Jobs announced the App Store. Where more than a few sue-happy companies would see a lawsuit opportunity, Benioff went up to Jobs and said, “I’m gonna give you the trademark and the URL because of the help you gave me in 2003.”

Salesforce CEO: Why I gave Apple the ‘App Store’ trademark in exchange for great advice from Steve Jobs
Your "history" seems to be a little off.

Apple's App Store and a little trademark history:
"An 'app store' is an 'app store.' Like 'shoe store' or 'toy store,' it is a generic term that is commonly used by companies, governments, and individuals that offer apps," said Microsoft's Russell Pangborn, Associate General Counsel of Trademarks. "The term 'app store' should continue to be available for use by all without fear of reprisal by Apple."
Microsoft Fights Apple's Attempt To Trademark 'App Store'

The history I was referring to was in the App Store Wikipedia article I linked. "Apple asserted trademark claims over the phrase, and filed a trademark registration for "App Store" in 2008". Salesforce is not exactly in the smartphone business, and we are talking about smartphone apps. I'm quite certain that Salesforce's definition of an App Store doesn't include a simple on-device (smartphone) interface to handle search, purchase, installation, and updates of smartphone apps; and which includes a large library of free or cheap smartphone apps. And they wouldn't have given it away for free if they were doing anything with it. To try and avoid a wild tangent, I said that if the phrase had been used prior, it wasn't widely known. But yet, here we go again. Apple put "App Store" into the minds of the average smartphone user, as it pertains to smartphones. Now hopefully you don't bring in an article about how John Deere made an App Store for tractors or something. Hopefully I've been specific enough this time.

Apple's App Store is what killed Microsoft's mobile phone business. No apps, no customers. No customers, no apps.

 

[Delgibbons]

I didn't read through all of this, but I believe we are talking about an ARM based Surface here, not a phone. You are in the wrong "Microsoft is dead, long live Apple" thread!

Rumbled.



It was the ARM and LTE bit that intrigued me. Some crazy horse is bound to stick it in a phone form factor too....right?!

 

[sinsin07]

The history I was referring to was in the App Store Wikipedia article I linked. "Apple asserted trademark claims over the phrase, and filed a trademark registration for "App Store" in 2008". Salesforce is not exactly in the smartphone business, and we are talking about smartphone apps.

Don't move the goalpost.
An appstore is an appstore mobile or otherwise.
Your comment was" notion of a an appstore".
The "notion of an appstore" existed before Apple's appstore.

"I'm quite certain that Salesforce's definition of an App Store doesn't include a simple on-device (smartphone) interface to handle search, purchase, installation, and updates of smartphone apps; and which includes a large library of free or cheap smartphone apps. And they wouldn't have given it away for free if they were doing anything with it.

What you are certain of is irrealevant as it exist only in your mind.
It doesn't matter what Saleforce's definition of an Appstore is.
There is a standard definition that is recognized by all.
And what you highlighted in bold your definition of an appstore not the standard definition.

To try and avoid a wild tangent, I said that if the phrase had been used prior, it wasn't widely known.

The wild tangent started with your "...little history lesson"..."notion of an app store".
Don't try to redefine the meaning as you do above in bold. That is the tangent.

 

[morphineseason]

I think they really need to get developers on board with the Windows Store first. I thought they were working on a solution to make it easier to port from Android and/or iOS, but I'm not sure if that ever came to fruition... at least I've never seen evidence of that really taking off. Or, even if they just created a really tight experience across the desktop and mobile platform, like Apple has, and really advertised that functionality, I think they'd have a good shot at increasing their market share, since so many people are using Windows 10 (especially business customers).

In any case, it's kind of bummer news. Was really hoping to see the rumored Surface Phone become a reality, as I've been pretty impressed with their hardware. The Continuum feature on Windows Mobile was a very forward-thinking idea too.

 

[ActionableMango]

OK. Would you happen to have a link supporting the above so I can correct my post?
TIA

Don't listen to him. His stats are incredibly outdated. 10 employees? How goddamn old is that information? They have nearly 500 now, employed in the USA. The three co-founders and majority owners are in the USA.

Yes, Vizio started by rebranding other TV models. They still do some of that for the low end, but they also design their own on the high end. They have many in-house software developers and engineers in the USA, mostly in Seattle. The P-Series competes with the very best TVs in the world.

The reason why he can't provide you links is because he is dead wrong. Here are the links that show otherwise:
https://www.forbes.com/companies/vizio/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/150048/

 

[campyguy]

I'm also going to throw out there that MS is regrouping, in part, to CarPlay and other Android solutions - the embedded systems that several automotive manufacturers (i.e., Ford) are likely cutting ties with the Windows Embedded OS that's been used for a few years, I'm seeing that the end-of-support date for some of MS's EC OSs is mid-next year (and renewing those licenses ain't cheap!).

I didn't read through all of this, but I believe we are talking about an ARM based Surface here, not a phone. You are in the wrong "Microsoft is dead, long live Apple" thread!

Heh, good one. Love my iPhone and my Mac, but I spend tens of thousands of dollars each year on field equipment and plenty more on SW updates as licensing requires it - total stations, survey field controllers, and the like. I can buy 150 cheap PCs for the price of one decent survey total station and controller…

My Leica CS20 controllers use dual-core ARM Cortex A9 processors, and AFAIK Windows EC7 OS official support ends next year - but, it lasts all frickin' day in the field. My Leica CS35 tablet runs Win 10 Pro on a Core i5-6300U vPro and it lasts a bit longer but it's so much more expensive - I'd love to have a CS35 with an ARM processor in it. There's a lot of survey equipment and navigation (for construction equipment, which addresses tilt angle as well as XYZ down to a couple of centimeters during earthwork).

Win 10 on ARM isn't just about phones and tiny PCs… Windows Phone was never where the money was or is, the path for Atom processors is dead, and Core i processors are energy-grubbing beasties.

My Lumia 640 is on the Fast Ring and is still getting updates, but I spent $30 on it on a closeout sale and put a custom ROM on it. My contractors bill several thousand $$$ per hour and both they and I would love to have a device that runs Win 10 on an ARM processor and a low-power GPS chip (like the one I called out around a week ago somewhere in these forums) that talks to the L5 GPS frequency - no more Intel needed! Cheers!

Microsoft and Qualcomm

… and Broadcomm. They're not in the linked-to text, however, their new low-power GPS chip that communicates with the fairly-precise L5 frequency can't be overlooked IMO. At least, I'll be looking for that chip in my next mobile devices (not just mobile phones).

 

[boppin]

Totally sad :-(

Somehow I love my Lumia 650 smartphone and the software is doing very well, except for Edge.

If this is really true, then we have just two smartphone competitors.

I wrote Microsoft that they are doing well.

 

[ErikGrim]

This really did not age well for poor old Microsoft.

 

[Solomani]

This is not really good, because we need competition to push the other companies to make better devices.

Well, on the slightly brighter side, at least Google is making another attempt to break through the Samsung-Apple duopoly domination of smartphones.

 

[TheRealTVGuy]

A little history lesson... The iPhone brought nothing new....

Except the first widely accepted virtual keyboard, full-service web browser, etc...

 

[Analog Kid]

The platform had promise, when it was windows CE and they delayed and revamped things so much that they blew it.

Windows CE was horrific to develop on. It wasn't helped by Microsoft trying to make it sound like "if you know Windows you can program an embedded device".

Microsoft has never had a strategy for portable devices, just as Intel hasn't. Their value is in their dominance of the desktop, which is largely driven by history and inertia.

 

[Sloop JB]

I actually like the live tile based user interface on Windows 10 mobile. It makes sense on mobile devices. It was also the only truly visually accessible interface, you can really scale the text up really large, great for low vision or elderly users. It's a real shame as I found it to be a solid mobile OS, Edge browser is fast, that I'd prefer over Android as the Win 10 phones went for quite cheap that is if I didn't have an iPhone.

I used Windows Phone as my daily driver for 5 years or so. I started with a Titan and ended with a 1020. The OS certainly did have a lot of promise. While the Live Tiles were nice, they did suffer from two flaws:

• What the Live Tile advertised was not always what you got when you clicked on it, especially when using news apps.
• Live Tiles were not coordinated across the system, so sometimes you would end up with a display that looked like Times Square at night, with several tiles flashing and flipping around.

[doublepost=1507607020][/doublepost]

Windows CE was horrific to develop on. It wasn't helped by Microsoft trying to make it sound like "if you know Windows you can program an embedded device".

Microsoft has never had a strategy for portable devices, just as Intel hasn't. Their value is in their dominance of the desktop, which is largely driven by history and inertia.

Just curious, but wasn’t development done with Visual Studio? I thought that it was supposed to be a great IDE.
[doublepost=1507607658][/doublepost]

Windows phone was never competitive. I don’t think it’s marketshare every broke into double digits.

There are plenty of manufacturers in the mobile space to push the envelope. Apple v. Samsung is what is driving development.

Yep. Microsoft was too late too market and too slow once they got there. I will give Ballmer credit that he really seemed to try to establish the platform in 2012-13. But by then it was too little, too late. I realized just how truly out of touch MS was when in 2015 I was at an AT&T store looking at phones. I was replacing my daughter’s 1020 with an iPhone, and I was trying to decide if I wanted to jump ship also. The Lumia 950 was next to an iPhone 6s, with the AT&T Next prices being within a dollar or so of each other. That was the point where I figured that MS just didn’t care about phone anymore, since a company that cared wouldn’t have have either made the 950 more compelling or would have priced it lower. If you are choosing between a 6s, with 50-zillion apps available, or a 950 with an App Store with more tumbleweeds than apps, which would you choose?

 

[Analog Kid]

Just curious, but wasn’t development done with Visual Studio? I thought that it was supposed to be a great IDE.

If only the IDE was the only problem...

No, it wasn't Visual Studio, at least not in the early years, it was a specialized IDE for embedded. The OS was custom assembled for every device, which made Android fragmentation look like an exercise in solidarity. Then there was Pocket PC which was built on, but wasn't Windows CE and just confused both the customer and the tool chain. The SDK was just as modular as the OS itself, so your APIs changed depending on the modules you compiled into the OS.

None of which made any sense because the hardware requirements were so limited, all the modularity of the OS didn't yield much in the way of flexibility in HW design. All of that might be worth it if it was svelte. But it wasn't. It was a huge, laggy, bug ridden beast with next to no MS support.

Embedded software engineers in those days didn't much care about IDEs (and generally don't really even today). That was the root of the problem I was alluding to earlier-- Microsoft tried to make it sound like it was just Windows programming to a different target, but you couldn't program an embedded system like a Windows machine.

 

[Iconoclysm]

Here comes the beginning of the demise of iPhone, though it may take as much as 10 years to finish the process. Android is to rule everything.

People said the same thing 10 years ago.
[doublepost=1507634224][/doublepost]

They've been working on it for 2 years.

They've been working on it even longer than that. Whether it ends up on a phone eventually is what I mean about a direction.
[doublepost=1507634777][/doublepost]

Ok, maybe I not clear on what this was:
"In 2003, RIM launched the Mobile Data Service to enable customers to access Java-based third-party enterprise applications using the secure real-time push-based BlackBerry infrastructure."


Sideloading? What does that have to do with being able to purchase apps from third party Windows CE/PPC stores? Not to mention the the numerous free sites you could obtain third party software from.
In any regard the delivery method is a different topic unrelated to my original comment.

Here is an old archive of some of the freeware/pay sites:
The Windows CE Archives
Even Samsung had a paysite for for Windows Mobile:
"Samsung Apps is an app store for applications that have been optimized for use with Samsung devices that run Windows Mobile. Some of the apps require purchase, there are also some that are free. There is also a developers section for developers wanting to provide applications for download."

The ability to develop and push software was available to everything as far back as a Palm Pilot. A clear app store is a lot different. I'm not even trying to argue that Apple had the first App Store or anything like that...however, having pocketPC's and smartphones from their inception, it was difficult to even figure out how you were supposed to use that GPS in your phone until you got mapping software on it, even if that software was Microsoft Streets and Trips. If you were actually there during those days, I doubt you'd even be trying to argue this point. Because it was like night and day when the iPhone came along.

Samsung Apps launched after Apple's App Store. Don't dig something up and assume it's older than iPhone because it says Windows Mobile. Samsung tried to ape the iPhone before the first Galaxy with a phone called the Omnia 2. It was a blatant ripoff, but with all the hangups of a 2008 Windows Mobile phone.

 

[sracer]

Rumbled.



It was the ARM and LTE bit that intrigued me. Some crazy horse is bound to stick it in a phone form factor too....right?!

It was painfully obvious what the fate of Windows Phone was going to be when Joe Belfiore took a year off.

Microsoft has contractual obligations that require them to take a methodical approach to sunsetting something like Windows Phone. As it usually goes, a platform/product becomes "stable" and through the passage of time things wind down to the point where there's nobody left and THEN they announce the end. All along that path, the hopeful will look for any glimmer of life and point to THAT as "proof" that the platform will live on. It goes from "effectively dead" to "dead dead".

Some of those contractual obligations are related to project "inertia" for those things in the pipeline that Microsoft has already spent resources on, and made commitments for.

I've been down this path over the last 30+ years (working for IBM and interfacing with Microsoft) and know the pattern.

 

[convergent]

Don't move the goalpost.
An appstore is an appstore mobile or otherwise.
Your comment was" notion of a an appstore".
The "notion of an appstore" existed before Apple's appstore.

What you are certain of is irrealevant as it exist only in your mind.
It doesn't matter what Saleforce's definition of an Appstore is.
There is a standard definition that is recognized by all.
And what you highlighted in bold your definition of an appstore not the standard definition.

The wild tangent started with your "...little history lesson"..."notion of an app store".
Don't try to redefine the meaning as you do above in bold. That is the tangent.

I would hate to get stuck next to you at a party.

Apple's App Store is what killed Microsoft's mobile phone business. That's my opinion. I've stated in detail what I mean by that. You can do all the ridiculous come backs you want, trying to play word games. It doesn't change anything.

 

[Delgibbons]

As for the first smartphone thing. Here's my Motorola A1000 from 2004. I had the A900 too that came out 2 years before even that. And a Nokia n95 which was a Smartphone too.

Touchscreen. 3G. Apps. Video Calling. Stylus. ARM OMAP processor. Transflash (microSD) card. Front and rear facing cameras. AGPS.

;-)



http://www.s21.com/motorola-a1000.htm

 

[xpxp2002]

Except the first widely accepted virtual keyboard, full-service web browser, etc...

Have to hand it to Apple for pushing hardware forward, too. Who remembers the mobile phone world before the "Retina" display? 320x240, 640x480, and if you were lucky 800x480 resolutions were the norm, even on higher-end devices.

Despite using other phones for years prior to getting an iPhone, I always envied those high-res screens when all I could get was 800x480 no matter how much I would have been willing to spend on competing hardware.