Microsoft Admits Windows Phone is Basically Dead

[Iconoclysm]

The “notion of the App Store” existed long before Apple was on the scene.
Blackberry had an App Store
Plam had multiple app stores, Handango being one beside the main Palm App Store
Windows CE, Pocket PC had several.
Etc.
You should clarify why Apple succeeded where others have failed as the “notion of the App Store” was not the reason.

Of those, Handango is really the only one that fits the bill. BB didn't even launch theirs until years after iPhone. Windows CE and Pocket PC were mostly sideloading unless you count the carriers who insisted on being the gateways to their horrible software. You couldn't even put Microsoft's own software onto a Windows Mobile phone without loading a CD then moving over the mobile executables.
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Whats going to really hurt the iphone is that smartphones have become a commodity and thus will have to compete on price. Android has gotten real good lately and the Chinese OEMs are coming out with great phones for $200 to $400. Apple and and the Koreans (Samsung/LG) can't compete on a price like that.

Remember Sony? Toshiba? Panasonic? RCA? Magnavox? They were big electronics companies too but the Chinese came in and ate their lunch. TCL, Huawei, Vizio, and other Chinese companies will take over in the next 5 years. Watch and see.

One thing you should take note of here is that none of those companies were even close to where Apple is right now with iPhone. There's definitely a possibility of this becoming the case but I don't see China knocking out Microsoft or Google here either, because it's just not as simple as it was with a pure hardware product. Also, it's South Korea, not China, that ate those companies' lunch.

And Vizio is an American company.

 

[sinsin07]

Whats going to really hurt the iphone is that smartphones have become a commodity and thus will have to compete on price. Android has gotten real good lately and the Chinese OEMs are coming out with great phones for $200 to $400. Apple and and the Koreans (Samsung/LG) can't compete on a price like that.

Remember Sony? Toshiba? Panasonic? RCA? Magnavox? They were big electronics companies too but the Chinese came in and ate their lunch. TCL, Huawei, Vizio, and other Chinese companies will take over in the next 5 years. Watch and see.

Vizio appears to be American:
Vizio

 

[Iconoclysm]

That gets said a great deal but is it always true? I think not. Often cooperation between companies leads to better experiences for the consumer than purely competition.

I'd say it hasn't been true since the auto industry in the mid-20th century. These old adages make no sense in a world where airlines, ISP's, and mobile carriers compete to see who can charge more for less.

Another is the "Under promise, over deliver" nonsense. Even the guy that coined the term spends his time touring the country to prove how that does not work effectively in business. Promise, then deliver what you promised. That sets proper expectations and prevents you from driving your business into the ground as customers begin to expect more than what you promise.

 

[Delgibbons]

Everyone appears to be missing the elephant in the room...

The next FULL Windows 10 build codenamed Andromeda is both Intel and ARM with x86 code running on ARM chips. Already demonstrated with a Snapdragon chip running FULL Adobe Photoshop.

This is intended for all platforms. Including mobile.

https://m.windowscentral.com/microsofts-plan-windows-10-mobile-and-existing-phones

http://news.thewindowsclub.com/full-windows-10-replace-windows-10-mobile-2018-90572/

 

[Iconoclysm]

Everyone appears to be missing the elephant in the room...

The next FULL Windows 10 build codenamed Andromeda is both Intel and ARM with x86 code running on ARM chips. Already demonstrated with a Snapdragon chip running FULL Adobe Photoshop.

This is intended for all platforms. Including mobile.

https://m.windowscentral.com/microsofts-plan-windows-10-mobile-and-existing-phones

http://news.thewindowsclub.com/full-windows-10-replace-windows-10-mobile-2018-90572/

That's more like a projection of an elephant on the wall of the room. MS is getting out of businesses that it doesn't have a foothold in. Even if this works, there is nothing official saying this is a direction they even plan to go in.

 

[Delgibbons]

That's more like a projection of an elephant on the wall of the room. MS is getting out of businesses that it doesn't have a foothold in. Even if this works, there is nothing official saying this is a direction they even plan to go in.

They've been working on it for 2 years.

 

[NIKKG]

Vizio appears to be American:
Vizio

They are just a small re-brander (10 to 50 employees), they are basically a Chinese front trying to sound like it's an American company to make people here think they are supporting the good ole' USA.

 

[sracer]

They've been working on it for 2 years.

Keep hope alive. Microsoft is NOT going to be producing a Windows (of any variety) phone anymore.

 

[sinsin07]

Of those, Handango is really the only one that fits the bill.
BB didn't even launch theirs until years after iPhone.

Ok, maybe I not clear on what this was:
"In 2003, RIM launched the Mobile Data Service to enable customers to access Java-based third-party enterprise applications using the secure real-time push-based BlackBerry infrastructure."

Windows CE and Pocket PC were mostly sideloading unless you count the carriers who insisted on being the gateways to their horrible software. You couldn't even put Microsoft's own software onto a Windows Mobile phone without loading a CD then moving over the mobile executables.

Sideloading? What does that have to do with being able to purchase apps from third party Windows CE/PPC stores? Not to mention the the numerous free sites you could obtain third party software from.
In any regard the delivery method is a different topic unrelated to my original comment.

Here is an old archive of some of the freeware/pay sites:
The Windows CE Archives
Even Samsung had a paysite for for Windows Mobile:
"Samsung Apps is an app store for applications that have been optimized for use with Samsung devices that run Windows Mobile. Some of the apps require purchase, there are also some that are free. There is also a developers section for developers wanting to provide applications for download."

 

[ssspinball]

And
Windows,
SQL Server
Office
Visio
Exchange
Skype
Visual Studio
One Note
Azure
BackOffice
etc, etc

Ah so only software that is forced onto most people by their IT and not by their own choice.

Gotcha.

 

[sinsin07]

They are just a small re-brander (10 to 50 employees), they are basically a Chinese front trying to sound like it's an American company to make people here think they are supporting the good ole' USA.

OK. Would you happen to have a link supporting the above so I can correct my post?
TIA

 

[convergent]

The “notion of the App Store” existed long before Apple was on the scene.
Blackberry had an App Store
Plam had multiple app stores, Handango being one beside the main Palm App Store
Windows CE, Pocket PC had several.
Etc.
You should clarify why Apple succeeded where others have failed as the “notion of the App Store” was not the reason.

I disagree, but this next post starts the clarification, so I'll build on that one.

Of those, Handango is really the only one that fits the bill. BB didn't even launch theirs until years after iPhone. Windows CE and Pocket PC were mostly sideloading unless you count the carriers who insisted on being the gateways to their horrible software. You couldn't even put Microsoft's own software onto a Windows Mobile phone without loading a CD then moving over the mobile executables.
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The "App Stores" that existed before the iPhone were stores that sold software, not anything like the Apple App Store or Google Play Store. I'm quite familiar with Handango, and actually made some serious money as an affiliate with a co-branded store with them. When I say "App Store", I'm talking about a seamless experience, driven from the device, with OTA installation/updates, and with a market price of free to a few bucks. Most applications sold in the prior "stores" were $20-30 or more each, and required installing software on a computer, while linked to the device via a USB cable, to get them onto the phone. The other PDAPhone platforms were just experimenting with other models. Carriers were doing OTA installs on their crappy feature phones, but that is not the same.

The availability of a wide catalog of apps that could be had for free, to nearly free, with the click of a button. THAT was the secret sauce. There were lots of other things that contributed, but that is the one thing that took Microsoft out of this. It even says that in the article we are debating about.

 

[sinsin07]

I disagree, but this next post starts the clarification, so I'll build on that one.

The person you quoted agreed that Handango "fits the bill".
Not clear why you would start there.

The "App Stores" that existed before the iPhone were stores that sold software, not anything like the Apple App Store or Google Play Store.

This doesn't make any sense. What does the Apple App store or the the Goolge play sell if not software? Isn't an app software?
I never alluded that Handango was like the Apple App store. That point is irrelevant. What is relevant is that app stores for mobile existed long before the iPhone.

When I say "App Store", I'm talking about a seamless experience, driven from the device, with OTA installation/updates, and with a market price of free to a few bucks.

Unfortunately, that's your own definition of app store.
However in order to communicate there must be a unifying central definition of "app store" that anybody can look up and identify.
"An app store (or app marketplace) is a type of digital distribution platform for computer software, often in a mobile context."
Your interpretation doesn't fit that bill.

Most applications sold in the prior "stores" were $20-30 or more each, and required installing software on a computer, while linked to the device via a USB cable, to get them onto the phone. The other PDAPhone platforms were just experimenting with other models. Carriers were doing OTA installs on their crappy feature phones, but that is not the same.

What you are referencing in the above is pricing and delivery method.
Delivery method has nothing to do with whether mobile app store existed before Apple App store.

The availability of a wide catalog of apps that could be had for free, to nearly free, with the click of a button. THAT was the secret sauce. There were lots of other things that contributed, but that is the one thing that took Microsoft out of this. It even says that in the article we are debating about.

Well that explains why Apple App store succeed better than what went before, nevertheless does nothing to disprove my original comment.

 

[the-msa]

It's a shame really.

Really liked the os and wanted to switch over, but the nonexistent app support held me back.

My father has a 3 year old 200 euro Nokia Lumia whatever, and it's still as smooth as an iPhone today.

 

[NIKKG]

OK. Would you happen to have a link supporting the above so I can correct my post?
TIA

Chinese company LeEco was buying them but now its in lawsuit as they are backing away from acquisition. Regardless, Vizio doesn't make anything, they are a repackager and just has a Chinese company put the Vizio brand name on their TVs. Vizio does mostly distribution to the retailers. I guess when you think about it, its not that much different from Apple, but at least Apple has a large in house engineering, software and design support in the USA plus they own their own Apple stores.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/10/15246058/leeco-vizio-acquisition-cancelled

 

[convergent]

Well that explains why Apple App store succeed better than what went before, nevertheless does nothing to disprove my original comment.

Huh? The Apple App Store "succeeding better than what went before" is the point.

You said I was wrong that the notion of the App Store was why Apple succeeded in taking out Microsoft's mobile phone business. There was nothing called "App Store" until Apple created the thing I described. The fact that other companies sold software in stores doesn't change my point. So my description of Apple's App Store model is relevant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_store

 

[tongxinshe]

Here comes the beginning of the demise of iPhone, though it may take as much as 10 years to finish the process. Android is to rule everything.

 

[sinsin07]

Huh? The Apple App Store "succeeding better than what went before" is the point.

So then it wasn't "the notion of the app store" as you appear to be in agreement that "it succeeded better than what went before, namely previous app stores. There must of been other factors to make Apple app store succeed better than what went before. Some of your other comments alluded to what the factors were. But it wasn't this:

What killed them was the notion of the App Store,

as has been already shown that "notion" existed before Apple's app store.

You said I was wrong that the notion of the App Store was why Apple succeeded in taking out Microsoft's mobile phone business. There was nothing called "App Store" until Apple created the thing I described. The fact that other companies sold software in stores doesn't change my point. So my description of Apple's App Store model is relevant.

No, what I said was this:

The “notion of the App Store” existed long before Apple was on the scene.
Blackberry had an App Store
Plam had multiple app stores, Handango being one beside the main Palm App Store
Windows CE, Pocket PC had several.
Etc.
You should clarify why Apple succeeded where others have failed as the “notion of the App Store” was not the reason.

Apple app store succeded for others reason, not "the notion of the app store."

 

[jigzat]

That's a shame, I actually like it more than Android. And as someone already say, "we need competition".

 

[actripxl]

This is a real shame, I loved WP 8 and really enjoyed their phones. I bought 520 to try it out and was instantly hooked over Android. A few months later I bought the Nokia 925, my favorite non Apple phone with an incredible camera.

It's a shame people were conditioned to Android because WP 8 was much better. Live tiles worked really well and the OS flew on hardware that would chug on Android.

I still have Lumia 635 that I use for what I call retro Thursday but I really want 925 back in my possession.

 

[Technarchy]

A little history lesson... Microsoft was big in the smartphone business before Apple ever thought about making a smartphone. Poor leadership and lack of market vision allowed Apple and Google to take it from them. The big players were Microsoft (Windows CE -> Pocket PC -> Windows Mobile), Palm, Symbian, and RIM (Blackberry). What killed them was the notion of the App Store, not the iPhone itself. The iPhone brought nothing new, but the prospect of cheap and free apps by the thousands cause the developers to abandon their traditional space and/or get steamrolled by new developers.

Let me help you with a history lesson...

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Here comes the beginning of the demise of iPhone, though it may take as much as 10 years to finish the process. Android is to rule everything.

You do know Android is dominant global mobile platform, right? Apple only has a tiny market share of about 20%. Nearly everything else is android.

 

[convergent]

Apple app store succeded for others reason, not "the notion of the app store."

I'll use a different word than "notion" if it makes you feel better, and try to go slow so its clear.

The term "App Store", was coined by Apple. If it was used prior, it wasn't widely used. Apple even tried to assert that it was a trademark, but lost. What I am talking about is Apple's implementation of their "App Store"; which includes a simple on-device interface to handle search, purchase, installation, and updates; and which included a large library of free or cheap apps. No one else had all these elements together, including Handango. Google was able to build a similar capability. Both attracted a lot of developers. Microsoft was slow to this model. This, in my opinion (and what was explained in the article we are referencing) is what ultimately killed Microsoft's smartphone business. The lack of apps. The phone and OS received plenty of accolades, but without apps you don't get buyers and without buyers you don't get more users to keep the developers playing, and you spiral into a pit. This has also basically left us with a duopoly which is not much better than a monopoly.

If you want to take my sentences one by one again and spend the time to try and take them out of context and pick my words apart, go for it. I've shared my opinion and really could care less if you agree with me. If you want to actually discuss it rather play word games, happy to do that.

 

[sinsin07]

Chinese company LeEco was buying them but now its in lawsuit as they are backing away from acquisition. Regardless, Vizio doesn't make anything, they are a repackager and just has a Chinese company put the Vizio brand name on their TVs. Vizio does mostly distribution to the retailers. I guess when you think about it, its not that much different from Apple, but at least Apple has a large in house engineering, software and design support in the USA plus they own their own Apple stores.

None of that proves Vizio is not an American company.
Your spinning your own wheels into what you think makes an American company.

"Vizio Inc. is an American privately held company that develops consumer electronics. Headquartered in Irvine, California, United States, the company was founded in October 2002 as V Inc. and is best known as a producer of flat-screen televisions."

https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/10/15246058/leeco-vizio-acquisition-cancelled

Your link is irrealevant.
In fact if you click on the link embeded in your link it say this:

LeEco’s acquisition of US television maker Vizio has taken months longer than the companies initially projected and may be in jeopardy, ... "In December, LeEco told Recode that US regulators had signed off on everything, but the same wasn’t true of Chinese authorities. “We are awaiting regulatory approval in China,” a spokesperson said at the time."
LeEco’s acquisition of Vizio could be in jeopardy

 

[Technarchy]

This ended up being his biggest regret

I still think he’s missing the point. Software is everything.

 

[sinsin07]

I'll use a different word than "notion" if it makes you feel better, and try to go slow so its clear.

Feelings not a part of the equation.
Nor is "going slow" unless you don't understand what you previous wrote.

If you presume to give:

A little history lesson...

than be accurate.

snip...The term "App Store", was coined by Apple. If it was used prior, it wasn't widely used. Apple even tried to assert that it was a trademark, but lost. ...

Yeah about that:

Bloomberg television has an interesting video up of Salesforce CEO Marc Benioff who shares an anecdote on how Apple chairman Steve Jobs helped him out with his unique insights on Enterprise Software (!!):

He has probably given me more help and more advice than just about anybody. And when I get in trouble and I kinda get lost in my own vision, I’ve been fortunate to be able to go and see him and he’s been willing to show me the future a couple times.

He then goes on to explain how in 2003 Jobs praised Salesforce’s “fantastic enterprise application” and advised him to dream bigger and think about the wider “ecosystem”. Salesforce took it at face value and built an app store of sorts dubbed App Exchange. However, they loved the app store term so much that they bought a URL and trademarked it. Benioff was later in the audience when Jobs announced the App Store. Where more than a few sue-happy companies would see a lawsuit opportunity, Benioff went up to Jobs and said, “I’m gonna give you the trademark and the URL because of the help you gave me in 2003.”

Salesforce CEO: Why I gave Apple the ‘App Store’ trademark in exchange for great advice from Steve Jobs
Your "history" seems to be a little off.

Apple's App Store and a little trademark history:
"An 'app store' is an 'app store.' Like 'shoe store' or 'toy store,' it is a generic term that is commonly used by companies, governments, and individuals that offer apps," said Microsoft's Russell Pangborn, Associate General Counsel of Trademarks. "The term 'app store' should continue to be available for use by all without fear of reprisal by Apple."
Microsoft Fights Apple's Attempt To Trademark 'App Store'