Microsoft Announces Intel Atom-Based Surface 3 With Windows 8.1 for $499

[69Mustang]

What do you mean by this exactly? The ability to create music from music scores has been included in sequencers since the Atari ST days. I'd be very surprised if there are no apps that lets you do this for iOS.

Written music. I didn't see a single app that allowed a person to write music using a stylus and have that music transcribed. I'm no musician and by no means am I claiming to have culled the entire App store, but nothing I found has the capability of Staffpad. Regardless of which ecosystem the app is on, Staffpad is pretty slick.

 

[subsonix]

Written music. I didn't see a single app that allowed a person to write music using a stylus and have that music transcribed. I'm no musician and by no means am I claiming to have culled the entire App store, but nothing I found has the capability of Staffpad. Regardless of which ecosystem the app is on, Staffpad is pretty slick.

Writing music commonly refers to creating the music itself, not using a pen specifically, which is why I was confused about what you meant. What you refer to then is the ability of this application to interpret hand writing on the sheet. Yeah, I'm not sure if that exist for iOS, it could, but I will not spend the time to investigate it.

 

[69Mustang]

Writing music commonly refers to creating the music itself, not using a pen specifically, which is why I was confused about what you meant. What you refer to then is the ability of this application to interpret hand writing on the sheet. Yeah, I'm not sure if that exist for iOS, it could, but I will not spend the time to investigate it.

Seeing as I was commenting on an app that specifically used a pen, I thought my meaning was obvious. As it wasn't, I'm glad we're clear. Regarding it's existance in iOS, I'm fairly certain it doesn't. We both seem to be comfortable with our suppositions, so it's all good.

 

[Renzatic]

Traditional desktop applications being written for touch based devices is what I'm arguing for, not the ability to reach the desktop and legacy applications. How big the incentive is for developers to port existing applications to Windows mobile depends on how large that market is for their specific audience. Given that a lot of Windows "pro" users refer to enterprise type applications, perhaps even written in Java I don't foresee a rush in doing that, especially if these applications automagically work when you switch to the desktop.

I think this is the reason why MS is all but giving away Windows 10 to people, which is already enjoying some good word of mouth advertising. It won't be an overnight change, but you will see a slow trend towards better things being made over time.

The more people who buy Windows tablets, the more they'll leverage touch based apps. The more people wanting to leverage touch based apps, the more people you'll have developing them. The more you have people developing good desktop class applications in a touch based environment, the more people expect that quality elsewhere. The more people expecting that quality elsewhere, the more good apps you'll see pop up in competition.

And of course with the iPad already providing a great touch based experience, MS and their developers have competition elsewhere, and thus more reason to provide a compelling alternative. MS will make it work because they have to make it work.

It remains to be seen how well the universal UI works in practice, I don't see how a traditional point and click interface with tons of menus will automagically translate into a great touch interface.

You can have a middle ground, which is sorta what MS is currently courting with their universal apps like Spartan, and the tablet Office suites. It needs a bit more streamlining, but there's a lot of potential there for it to work quite well.

In a lot of ways, this is the same approach Apple is taking. Pages for iPad is nearly the same as Pages for OSX these days. MS is just trying to do it without sacrificing any functionality to get there.

 

[RockSpider]

By point and click I refer to using a mouse, which moves a cursor on the screen, you aim this cursor at buttons or menu options to invoke an action. Is this not how you use desktop applications in windows 10.

I know what you mean, but like I said, Windows 10 is a marriage of point and click and touch. Besides, it was just as easy to use a mouse in Windows 8. The menu now is a combination of Apps and Icons.

 

[Soccertess]

You're either doing something wrong, or this is a made up story. I've never seen 8.1 being almost unusable with 4GB of ram.

Go to best buy and try them... barely usable.... and by the number of people also saying the same thing.. I'm not the only one. Just go and someone is commenting the same thing on almost any page.

And I really like the surface, if they can pull it off.. more power to Microsoft. My Gf got her self a cheap HP with 4 gb ram, and it wasn't usable till we upgraded it. Sometime seeing is believing

 

[subsonix]

I know what you mean, but like I said, Windows 10 is a marriage of point and click and touch.

That's easy to say, but not at all obvious how it would work for already existing applications. BTW I have never argued that it is hard to use the mouse in Windows 8.

----------

You can have a middle ground, which is sorta what MS is currently courting with their universal apps like Spartan, and the tablet Office suites. It needs a bit more streamlining, but there's a lot of potential there for it to work quite well.

In a lot of ways, this is the same approach Apple is taking. Pages for iPad is nearly the same as Pages for OSX these days. MS is just trying to do it without sacrificing any functionality to get there.

Yes you can, but both these examples are created by the companies who makes the OS and the streamlining is a conscious decision involving manual work. It's not an automagic translation of any application to two interfaces.

 

[Renzatic]

This direction was already in motion way before the iPad and "apps". Look at Microsoft ribbon, this naturally lent itself nicely for a touch interface, even though it probably wasn't initially meant for that. It works so well that the desktop version of Office is actually quite usable on a touch tablet.

Sorta. The ribbon uses a lot of big icons to draw the eye to more commonly used commands, which of course lends itself well to touch. But as it is right now, there are still too many small buttons on there that are a pain in the ass to jab with your finger with any accuracy. It's a coincidental matching.

If you really want to get right down to it, there aren't many differences between a touch based environment and keyboard-mouse driven one. At least not to the point they have to be two entirely separate paradigms that are almost alien to each other. It's mostly an issue of real estate, and the different ways you issue commands. Well though out gestures can easily take the place of keyboard shortcuts if done right.

The real dividing point is that touch has to give the impression that you're directly interacting with something, while you can have a disconnect with the kb-m and still feel natural. Like take cut/copy/paste for example. You can use CMD+X/C/V for that with a keyboard, and it'll feel fine. You know what it does. But on a tablet, you have to convey the sense you're cutting or copying something, then pasting it elsewhere. Most importantly, it has to be as fast and fluid. I think this is something no one has quite managed to do yet. At least not completely.

 

[justinhu8]

Its still $499 for a 16GB iPad.

 

[2IS]

Go to best buy and try them... barely usable.... and by the number of people also saying the same thing.. I'm not the only one. Just go and someone is commenting the same thing on almost any page.

And I really like the surface, if they can pull it off.. more power to Microsoft. My Gf got her self a cheap HP with 4 gb ram, and it wasn't usable till we upgraded it. Sometime seeing is believing

Most of the win 8 computers a I've tried had 4gb of ram. Easily over 100 I'd say. Perfectly usable. Not sure what you're talking about tbh.

 

[Renzatic]

Yes you can, but both these examples are created by the companies who makes the OS and the streamlining is a conscious decision involving manual work. It's not an automagic translation of any application to two interfaces.

No, it's not. But then again, universal apps aren't laid out quite the same as traditional Win32 apps. The design is quite a bit different, though it leverages both oldschool desktop functionality, and mixes it with newer functions we've grown accustomed to now that touch is nearly ubiquitous.

In a lot of ways, I think what we're seeing now is a lot like the transition from CLI to GUIs. You can use a GUI almost entirely with a mouse, and never touch the keyboard once. But you can use the keyboard almost as much if you want, which uses shortcuts that have existed since the DOS days to do some things quicker and easier.

I think we're gonna see a similar blending with touch and desktop. You won't have an automagic switch, rather we'll end up with a 3rd environment that can work well in both with just a bit of tweaking.

 

[Belmont31R]

snip

4/128 is the $599 model. The base $499 model has 2/64 which is hardly suitable for all but the most basic of tasks. Even just a browser like Chrome or FF will use more than 2GB with a few tabs open.


And students have things like iPhones and iTunes so that 64GB is going to be useless as is the 2GB of RAM. Instead it going to chew up that 64GB with constant read/writes with the paging file using that SSD as RAM.


iOS is completely different and people have been complaining for a while about Safari tabs reloading with 1GB. I can't believe people think a full desktop class OS can be run on 2GB, and not run into issues. Sure the OS can mask those issues with cute spinning wheels and such but 2/64 on a full OS is most assuredly a very low ball experience. I would not buy a computer today with less than 8GB, and if I were to build my own desktop windows PC I would have at minimum 16GB and likely 32GB.


Just because SSD's are fast does not mean computers can get away with RAM from 10 years ago by using a paging file.

 

[Renzatic]

Most of the win 8 computers a I've tried had 4gb of ram. Easily over 100 I'd say. Perfectly usable. Not sure what you're talking about tbh.

For every day tasks, you simply can't choke out Win 7/8 with 4GB ram. I mean...you just can't.

Case in point, I have a friend who's some sorta of damn freak, and browses the internet by opening up dozens upon dozens upon dozens of individual windows instead of tabs. On top of that, he mixes and matches browsers. He'll open some stuff in Chrome, others in IE, others still in Firefox. Dunno why. It's about the most inefficient thing I've ever seen in my life. but hey, he does it.

He just has a 4GB machine, and he'll have all those windows open on separate webpages, and still find time to sort through and transfer gigs and gigs of data across multiple harddrives he has hooked up. He takes the simplest tasks, and turns them into the most resource intensive things imaginable. Despite that, he only moderately bogs down Windows 7.

I think 99.9999998% of the world won't be doing what he does.

Anyone who says Win 7/8 doesn't work with 4GB ram doesn't know what they're talking about. It isn't a matter of opinion. They straight up don't know what they're talking about.

 

[subsonix]

In a lot of ways, I think what we're seeing now is a lot like the transition from CLI to GUIs. You can use a GUI almost entirely with a mouse, and never touch the keyboard once. But you can use the keyboard almost as much if you want, which uses shortcuts that have existed since the DOS days to do some things quicker and easier.

That's a good example that illustrates the strength of different interfaces, reducing a CLI to mere keyboard shortcuts is a major compromise though, which is why the CLI still exists.

 

[RockSpider]

4/128 is the $599 model. The base $499 model has 2/64 which is hardly suitable for all but the most basic of tasks. Even just a browser like Chrome or FF will use more than 2GB with a few tabs open.


And students have things like iPhones and iTunes so that 64GB is going to be useless as is the 2GB of RAM. Instead it going to chew up that 64GB with constant read/writes with the paging file using that SSD as RAM.


iOS is completely different and people have been complaining for a while about Safari tabs reloading with 1GB. I can't believe people think a full desktop class OS can be run on 2GB, and not run into issues. Sure the OS can mask those issues with cute spinning wheels and such but 2/64 on a full OS is most assuredly a very low ball experience. I would not buy a computer today with less than 8GB, and if I were to build my own desktop windows PC I would have at minimum 16GB and likely 32GB.


Just because SSD's are fast does not mean computers can get away with RAM from 10 years ago by using a paging file.

What are you going to run on this beast, Vista and Adobe Photoshop. The average person has no need for these things and besides Windows 10 can run on a very small footprint and ram, I know, I've got it running on a very old single core Atom CPU with 2gb ram. I wouldn't skite about the speed, but it's a lot better than 8.1.
I think you'd be very surprised how well these new Windows tablets can run, and will be even better when they upgrade to Windows 10 for free.

 

[Renzatic]

That's a good example that illustrates the strength of different interfaces, reducing a CLI to mere keyboard shortcuts is a major compromise though, which is why the CLI still exists.

I got my first computer (well, besides my old Atari) during the Windows 98 days, so I missed out who the whole command line craze. Though I have learned over the years that some things are a helluva lot faster to do from a CLI than they are from a GUI, though. Sometimes, putting in a line of esoteric text is preferable to drilling through a bunch of dropdown menus and windows.

It's a rare thing for me, but I do use it sometimes.

 

[RockSpider]

For every day tasks, you simply can't choke out Win 7/8 with 4GB ram. I mean...you just can't.

Case in point, I have a friend who's some sorta of damn freak, and browses the internet by opening up dozens upon dozens upon dozens of individual windows instead of tabs. On top of that, he mixes and matches browsers. He'll open some stuff in Chrome, others in IE, others still in Firefox. Dunno why. It's about the most inefficient thing I've ever seen in my life. but hey, he does it.

He just has a 4GB machine, and he'll have all those windows open on separate webpages, and still find time to sort through and transfer gigs and gigs of data across multiple harddrives he has hooked up. He takes the simplest tasks, and turns them into the most resource intensive things imaginable. Despite that, he only moderately bogs down Windows 7.

I think 99.9999998% of the world won't be doing what he does.

Anyone who says Win 7/8 doesn't work with 4GB ram doesn't know what they're talking about. It isn't a matter of opinion. They straight up don't know what they're talking about.

I'll vouch for that, I'm running a Core2 Duo 3GHZ with 4gb ram and have never thought that it's too slow. I also have a Core i7 with 8gb and it's hard to tell the difference between the two.

 

[Renzatic]

I'll vouch for that, I'm running a Core2 Duo 3GHZ with 4gb ram and have never thought that it's too slow. I also have a Core i7 with 8gb and it's hard to tell the difference between the two.

Yup. These days, I'd say just about any processor out there can perform the basics as well as any others. Browsing, sorting through files, watching movies, even doing light photo touch ups, you'll only barely be able to tell any difference between a Core M and a desktop i7. Sure, a higher end computer will officially load all your programs, movies, and photos faster. But really, the difference between 0.4 and 1.5 seconds isn't great enough to be all that noticeable.

 

[Xiroteus]

For every day tasks, you simply can't choke out Win 7/8 with 4GB ram. I mean...you just can't.

Case in point, I have a friend who's some sorta of damn freak, and browses the internet by opening up dozens upon dozens upon dozens of individual windows instead of tabs. On top of that, he mixes and matches browsers. He'll open some stuff in Chrome, others in IE, others still in Firefox. Dunno why. It's about the most inefficient thing I've ever seen in my life. but hey, he does it.

He just has a 4GB machine, and he'll have all those windows open on separate webpages, and still find time to sort through and transfer gigs and gigs of data across multiple harddrives he has hooked up. He takes the simplest tasks, and turns them into the most resource intensive things imaginable. Despite that, he only moderately bogs down Windows 7.

I think 99.9999998% of the world won't be doing what he does.

Anyone who says Win 7/8 doesn't work with 4GB ram doesn't know what they're talking about. It isn't a matter of opinion. They straight up don't know what they're talking about.

There is right, wrong and different. What he does is like pushing on a door that says pull.

 

[freeskier93]

Why comment if you don't know what's possible, on the other hand, I do know what's possible because I have tried all Windows including 10 and I know for a fact that Windows can run on 2gb because it can run on 1gb.
I also have Windows 10 running on a single core old Atom CPU with 2gb ram and while not real fast, it runs a lot better than W8.
These new tablets with the new Atom CPUs are an entirely different kettle of fish, I am amazed at how well they run.

Obviously it will run... my comment was more on the facetious side. How well it will run is another question and a matter of opinion and what one is willing to tolerate.

 

[johnnyturbouk]

I thought DisplayMate gave the SP3 display a good review? And I would guess the SP4 will have an upgraded display. What didn't you like about Windows 7? Most considered that the best version of Windows and many still do.

I think therein lies my apple centric bias
When i compared a HD video on a sp2 vs an ipad, i was not overly impressed, however, this was my subjective view. With the regards to the sp3 display, i have not seen it myself, and was comparing the tech. specs against the ipad - point taken.

In reference to windows 7, i had this installed via bootcamp back in 2011, and really was not impressed. I found it drastically different to previous versions of windows that i was familiar with, vista, XP, and i had became very accustomed to the osx UI. Furthermore, i was not a fan of the revised taskbar.

 

[Renzatic]

There is right, wrong and different. What he does is like pushing on a door that says pull.

Have you ever met someone who's generally pretty smart, knows it, comes across as kinda smary, and has a very calm, rational explanations for why they do some of the stupidest crap in the world?

...actually, I already know the answer to that. You post here. You've probably run into at least 10 people like this by now.

 

[bmw328ci]

After buying Surface pro 2 and Lumia 1020 I don't think I will buy microsoft products again.

 

[wingsabre]

The problem with Microsoft is the fact they keep clinging to old technology and wants everyone to use computers the same old way. Basically, they won't give up on Windows and alter in ways it needs to be. Perfect example is the fact that this model will come with 64 GB or so but the fact that over time Windows updates will hog up all the space. The WinSXS folder will keep piling up with monthly patches until someone with technical experience cleans it up for the end user.

Microsoft still doesn't get it and never will.

Nope, I don't think you get it. It's not Microsoft that clings to old technology it's their enterprise clients. So many companies are hesitant to upgrade their operating system because they've invested thousands in custom software for their daily activities. You can go to most banks, or even stores like Whole Foods and you'll see that they're operating applications that work in Windows XP. Microsoft has tried for almost a decade to get companies and consumers to switch over from XP to a more modern operating system, and being backwards compatible is part of that legacy. I'm fairly certain that they don't want to cling to old technology, most companies don't want to because it adds additional cost and inefficiency. However Microsoft is almost forced to do so.

Apple on the other hand is mainly consumer focused. They'll support the OSX or iOS for a max of 2-3 years, and that's usually the length of the extended warranty when you buy the product.

 

[the-msa]

Go to best buy and try them... barely usable.... and by the number of people also saying the same thing.. I'm not the only one. Just go and someone is commenting the same thing on almost any page.

And I really like the surface, if they can pull it off.. more power to Microsoft. My Gf got her self a cheap HP with 4 gb ram, and it wasn't usable till we upgraded it. Sometime seeing is believing

i have a 8 year old samsung laptop with 2.4 ghz core2duo, gt9600m and a 5400 rpm hdd. windows 8.1 runs perfectly fine with 4 gb ram. diablo 3 running great with 60 fps at medium settings.