SomeSoftwareGuy
macrumors regular
Came here late just to read the comments and boy they did not disappoint. 🤣
Microsoft Debuts New Dual-Screen Devices, Updated Surface Laptops and More
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TracesOfArsenic
macrumors 65816
You're lucky. My 2016 MBP regularly has its fans spinning at 5900 RPM and I have no clue why, even killing "hungry" apps shown in iStat Menus.Can hardly open up a few browsers or watch a YouTube video without fans spinning at their limitsRarely have this issue with my MacBook Pro.
There isn't the gap there once was between macOS and Windows. They both have strengths and weaknesses and for most people they choose the one they've used for the longest and form an illogical defense of why their choice is better.
Abazigal
Contributor
I remember a ton of attention being paid to the surface studio, yet years later, how well has it sold exactly?
The iPhone XR was criticised for its display, yet it went on to be Apple’s best-selling iPhone.
Apple is a design-led company who primarily profits from hardware sales. Their products are designed to resonate with the people who will actually pay for them, not complain on public forums, and from what I see, that’s working. The
Conversely, Microsoft is still a services company by and large. They can afford to put out fancy looking form factors designed to receive much fanfare with tech blogs and YouTubers even if they never really end up getting much traction with consumers. Microsoft doesn’t need these products to actually sell, they just need to keep peddling the impression that they are more innovative than they actually are.
Apple is smart to not miss the forest for the trees.
The iPhone XR was criticised for its display, yet it went on to be Apple’s best-selling iPhone.
Apple is a design-led company who primarily profits from hardware sales. Their products are designed to resonate with the people who will actually pay for them, not complain on public forums, and from what I see, that’s working. The
Conversely, Microsoft is still a services company by and large. They can afford to put out fancy looking form factors designed to receive much fanfare with tech blogs and YouTubers even if they never really end up getting much traction with consumers. Microsoft doesn’t need these products to actually sell, they just need to keep peddling the impression that they are more innovative than they actually are.
Apple is smart to not miss the forest for the trees.
Zdigital2015
macrumors 601
No they won’t...the average IT department has zero desire to deal with the dozen or so “free spirits” who will want a Surface Pro X. They’ll get a Surface Pro 7 or an iPad Pro depending on which platform the majority of their enterprise custom apps run on. The Surface Pro X is a dud and a complete non-starter in the Enterprise. I give it two years before it quietly dies on the vine.
Drak3
macrumors member
For everyone calling Microsoft innovative for the Neo and Duo:
www.pcmag.com
ZTE already released a product with the same concept. There appears to be no significant change in implementation. So, unless the Neo and Duo have had long development cycles (to be fair, is very likely, Microsoft spends alot on stuff that might not make it to market for a decade, like the Surface Book's hinge design), they're not really innovative. Just more refined.
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ZTE Axon M Review
The ZTE Axon M for AT&T has a unique design that folds out to reveal a second display, effectively transforming the phone into a small tablet, but there are some kinks to work out.
ZTE already released a product with the same concept. There appears to be no significant change in implementation. So, unless the Neo and Duo have had long development cycles (to be fair, is very likely, Microsoft spends alot on stuff that might not make it to market for a decade, like the Surface Book's hinge design), they're not really innovative. Just more refined.
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Given supply and target market, pretty well.
The phone is for Windows users (most computer users) that want great integration with Windows and the MS ecosystem. It has Android compatibility so apps are there.
They are 90% of the way there with the Your Phone app for Android. I run a Galaxy S9+ and Win 10 machines. With the Your Phone app, I can send SMS, transfer photos, and see notifications from my PC. It's integrated into the OS and works very well, even with multiple PCs.
The MS Launcher for Android is quite good and also integrates well with MS services. Swipe left and you have an integrated view of your day. It integrates calendar (from Google no less), Todo, etc and works well.
Throw in some more special sauce and it's the whole enchilada just like Apple. I'd give an MS phone running Android a shot.
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I've spent the same amount of time "working on my Windows boxes" over the past 3 years that I have on my many past Macs. Little to none. Even my homebuilt Ryzen 7 box goes 30 days straight with updates, updates automatically and runs great just like my iMac.
My HP Spectre x360 has been every bit as reliable as many past Macbooks.
Never thought I'd say this but Win 10 is quite good.
Rogifan
macrumors Penryn
but Microsoft doesn’t give sales figures for hardware.
You have no choice but to tether your MB. It's also a win-win for Apple for you to have an iPhone *and* a MB. And of course tethering is typically more restricted in plan and data cap. It's not a real high priority for Apple to add LTE.
Surface Studio is a halo product, doesn't need to sell well like the Mac Pro.
XR sold well because the XS was way more expensive. Display criticism because there was nothing to hate about. It's still retina level of density like iPhone 8 and iPad Mini. Sizeable amount of people also got it because they get eye strain from XS OLED PWM.
There are plenty of Apple user complaints here and other public forums that you can see...
And Apple can afford to put out fancy looking apps while consumers use Office. So what?
Atlantico
macrumors 6502
Let's go through your post!
So, you'd know that the Duo, or "this phone" as you insist on calling it, offers exactly *no* better integration with Windows than any other Android phone. It uses exactly the same apps and protocols to achieve this integration. Because it's a bog standard Android phone.
It doesn't have "Android compatibility", the Duo *is* an Android phone. Native. So exactly like all other Android phones, of course there's plenty of apps available.
Quite, and the "Your Phone" app supports all Android phones, as you mention, even your Galaxy. It also supports iPhones for that matter. Once again, integration that's already there and *not* specific to the Duo. You'd know that, if you weren't.... you know.
The Launcher is available for all Android devices, you know that if you weren't... nothing Duo specific here.
There's no "special sauce" to throw in, the idea is absurd. Your Samsung is about as custom and about as "special" as any Google approved Android is ever going to be. And it's nothing special. Cortana is already available on Android and Microsoft isn't pitching the Duo as a "special Android" device. At best it will have a Windows theme.
Great. Why, though? It's literally just another Android phone, except way more expensive. There will be nothing that the Duo can do which other similarly specced Android phones can't do. You understand that?
So, you'd know that the Duo, or "this phone" as you insist on calling it, offers exactly *no* better integration with Windows than any other Android phone. It uses exactly the same apps and protocols to achieve this integration. Because it's a bog standard Android phone.
It doesn't have "Android compatibility", the Duo *is* an Android phone. Native. So exactly like all other Android phones, of course there's plenty of apps available.
Quite, and the "Your Phone" app supports all Android phones, as you mention, even your Galaxy. It also supports iPhones for that matter. Once again, integration that's already there and *not* specific to the Duo. You'd know that, if you weren't.... you know.
The Launcher is available for all Android devices, you know that if you weren't... nothing Duo specific here.
There's no "special sauce" to throw in, the idea is absurd. Your Samsung is about as custom and about as "special" as any Google approved Android is ever going to be. And it's nothing special. Cortana is already available on Android and Microsoft isn't pitching the Duo as a "special Android" device. At best it will have a Windows theme.
Great. Why, though? It's literally just another Android phone, except way more expensive. There will be nothing that the Duo can do which other similarly specced Android phones can't do. You understand that?
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Digital Dude
macrumors 65816
I'm impressed by the new devices, so yes; I would consider switching if the products work as advertised.
Rogifan
macrumors Penryn
You bring up a good point. If Microsoft stopped making hardware nobody would care (other than people who frequent tech sites like The Verge). Certainly Wall Street wouldn’t. In that respect Panos Panay has a dream job. He has all this Microsoft money to experiment with different ideas/form factors and how much they sell (or if they ever even ship) doesn’t really matter.
John Gruber had an interesting take: in the keynote they made a point of touting the reliability of their keyboards. Yet nobody remembers that because along side shipping hardware they showed off prototypes that won’t ship for at least a year. The event could have been Microsoft makes more reliable hardware than Apple. Instead it was here’s some shiny objects to get The Verge writers all wetting their pants. Then of course they wake up the next morning and as the hangover wears off they look at the devices again and scratch their heads. If Apple released something like this techies would be laughing at how it looks like a prototype from 2010 or something.
How is Surface Studio a halo product? I remember when it was announced all the complaints about the hardware specs. It wasn‘t iMac Pro or Mac Pro level hardware.
Sure Microsoft treats Surface like a real business (and it is) but if it went away tomorrow Wall Street would barely blink. Because of that the Surface team has the luxury of experimenting and creating shiny objects for bored tech writers to drool over.
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Abazigal
Contributor
You know, I keep looking at those 2 products shown in your post (the surface Duo and Neo) and I just can't seem to wrap my head around it (and it's not just because Apple hasn't done it yet). More specifically, I am having difficulty accepting this whole “hold it like a book” user paradigm.
I really don't see the need for a hinge. The only thing that really needs to be held like a book is an actual physical book or notebook because those objects are made of paper. They are very traditional objects that we always had to hold like that. We don’t NEED to be seeing two pages of information at a time in book form most of the time. What’s the first thing most people do when they get out a spiral bound notebook to take notes? They fold the page they don’t need to the back and concentrate on the page they do need.
Second, I feel that Microsoft is taking a very big risk by essentially leaving it up to developers to support their device's unique form factor. Maybe Microsoft plans to reach out to key app developers to optimise their app layouts, but if developers already aren't willing to optimise their apps for a traditional tablet layout, what are their chances of getting them to support a new form factor which will have an even lower adoption rate?
I simply do not see enough app developers spending the time and money to make a compelling folding screen experience for the few users that end up with those devices. Especially when you consider that most Android users are not their best customers.
Which brings me back to an argument I often make (and which critics often tend to overlook) about how Apple has the best customers, which in turn attracts the best developers, resulting in the best experience for its users.
Finally, I just do not get how so many companies in the tech industry will pre-announce products and services that will not be available within a short timeframe to purchase/use. They seem to forget an important point in sales that is to not get your customers excited for something that they can not get right away. I guess it goes back to your (our?) point about how Microsoft doesn't need these products to sell well, or even sell at all. They just need to keep peddling the impression that they are (still) innovative, and in this regard, I suppose it's money well-spent.
And one place Steve was wrong is the touch screen. Very nice to have, so hope Apple catches up there. I'm really starting to wonder WHY a MBP costs $2,000. I just don't see it.
Atlantico
macrumors 6502
Those are excellent and well though out problems you present. I appreciate that.
I'm also having trouble figuring out what the point of the Neo and Duo is, assuming the prototypes are indicative of the final product.
The Neo is all about the formfactor, the dual screen - which has its issues, as you rightly point out.
The Duo is literally just another Android phone - which, I'm sorry, isn't interesting at all. We're up to our necks in Android phones already.
You mention Apple has the best customers, and you're right, they do - but there's a good reason for that. Unlike Microsoft, for instance, Apple customers can rely on product support.
When the Mac had 3% marketshare in the early 2000s, Apple didn't just cancel the Mac. On the contrary, Apple kept developing it, kept pushing it and is now at 13% marketshare with the Mac.
When the Windows Phone had 3% marketshare in 2015, Microsoft just cancelled it and unceremoniously abandoned its customers. Perhaps that has a lot to do with why people aren't super excited to join in a new Microsoft initiative like Windows X and the Surface Neo.
To be fair though the Mac was still Apple's core product at the turn of the century - cancelling it would have been tantamount to shutting up shop. Windows Phone was never that for Microsoft.
Glockworkorange
Suspended
It's an interesting product. I expect them to slim those bezels in the next year though.
Rogifan
macrumors Penryn
This is all it’s about. Panos Panay once said he was obsessed with Apple. I’m sure there was a time when he was a fan of Apple design and wanted to create something similar at Microsoft. But now I think it’s all about creating a media narrative that Microsoft is more innovative/interesting than Apple. There’s no other reason to show off unfinished hardware prototypes over a year in advance.
Zdigital2015
macrumors 601
There is zero point to creating a 15” MacBook Air w/ just USB-C at this point, versus simply giving us two substantially more versatile TB3 ports as the 13” MacBook Air sports. It also depends on whether Apple decides to use a 10th Generation 25w TDP U-Series CPU or not. TB3 is baked into these CPUs, so MS missed the boat in not offering that functionality with the Surface Pro 7. Apple deciding to take the MacBook Air in a larger direction remains to be seen, but there is definitely untapped market potential based on the number of people who refer to this amongst the forums. Whether or not this is simply a response to the lack of a $1999 15” MacBook Pro is another matter entirely.
Atlantico
macrumors 6502
Yes, and many called for Apple to close down and sell the assets during that time. From a shareholder perspective, at the time, that made perfect sense. Apple was bleeding cash, year after year with no end in sight.
So, no it's not to be fair at all, Apple as a company is no more holy than a division to the eyes of shareholders.
And it's this tenacity and quite frankly disrespect to the immediate profit of shareholders, that has created such loyal fans. That was my point.
notjustjay
macrumors 603
To me it’s more like... sure you can get a device for less. But if you want an equivalently nice device, like a Surface Pro or Surface Laptop, Dell XPS, Lenovo X1 Carbon, ... suddenly the pricing isn’t so different.