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Let's be honest. You'd only be sold on it if Apple slapped its logo on it and pronounced Windows 8 the most revolutionary software ever created. :D And that they would be shipping it in all their products moving forward. At that precise moment, Windows 8 would suddenly become exciting and very appealing to you and a lot of other people on here.

I love Apple products, but I'm happy I haven't been brainwashed into believing anything different made by another company is always bad until the moment Apple does something similar.

I wasn't being sarcastic, I actually found your post very informative and convincing.
 
As interesting as this is, I feel like Microsoft has one foot in the grave sadly. I haven't seen a product from them in years that actually gets me excited come from Microsoft. Apple has the tablet market, everyone is competing for second place.
 
This is why Windows 8 for ARM will never work: x86 Apps.

Microsoft has done this time and again:

1. Windows NT (great OS BTW) was ported to a number of different CPUs. The big hope was that you would have all these great CPU platforms running Windows NT in a big happy world. Well, 3rd party folks wrote utilities for one CPU platform: x86. Sure, I could run Windows NT on MIPS but if I needed a disk defragmenter or spiffy backup utility well I better be running X86 since that is where the apps were.

2. How about Windows CE or Pocket PC? How many CPUs did that run on? How did that turn out?

The rest of us that do not own a tablet are not looking so much for better features but the ability to run many x86 apps. With Windows 8 and a CPU that is X86 compatible you gain a plethora of software and tools that can't be beat.

iOS and Android tablets all share the same problem for CIOs in that you have to buy software for different platforms.

If I can buy a Windows 8 Table that runs x86 software I can access a wealth of software that is available. For CIOs who are worried about budgets and projects, this is a fantastic solution.

If none of that seems logical how about this? I am a CIO that is not going iOS or Android but I am strongly looking at Windows 8. I can buy a Windows 8 Tablet that I can choose an x86 or an ARM. Both are very similar and maybe even the ARM gives me some extra battery life. However, the x86 can run a plethora of software now or I can HOPE that many tools I use on my desktop will get ported to ARM. There is just no comparison in that situation. It will be x86.

-P

If Microsoft does it right, then every new "desktop class" program that is written from scratch in accordance with their preferred work-flows, and specifically targeting the Windows 8 platform SDK would, by default, automatically be compiled into their version of a "fat binary", which could then be run on every Windows 8 compatible machine regardless of CPU.

Will Microsoft do it right? Time will tell.
 
Is it just me or does it seem that Microsoft is no longer viewed as the "Bad" bully.

I agree. Apple has taken over the mantle of bad bully, evil empire.

I distinguish these two totally different scenarios:

> For a breakthrough, totally novel concept - such as the finger-touch iPad, you don't ask customers what they want because they've never seen it before. So I agree with Apple refusing to listen to customers for novel, breakthroughs.

> But for things within the customers area of experience - applying the Apple-knows-best, refusing to listen to customers, is totalitarian arrogance.

e.g. refusing to offer matte, non-reflective screens for 4+ years needed by graphics professionals, photographers, people with sensitive eyes.

e.g. Removing functional features such as SAVE AS from Lion. Sure, there are workarounds and rough-equivalents, but none as good as a precise SAVE AS. I mean, for things like SAVE AS, it's not a fancy feature. I just need it to do work. What good does it do to force people to adopt features which are different, but not necessarily radical improvements.

e.g. Dumbing down software such as iMovie and Final Cut. Sure, there are lots of newbies that benefit from the simpler software - and that's great - but Apple didn't have to remove the more sophisticated features. They could have just put them into less prominent menus or options, so that those complex features are not prominent for newbies, but are still there for power users. Instead, Apple dumbs down their software for the lowest common denominator, and feels justified that they're right because sales go up.

The only thing that keeps me with Apple is the general stability of Snow Leopard, and it being generally virus-free. I update my OSX when each iteration gets to around 10.X.6 so I always get a very stable OS, rather than having to pay money to Apple to be a beta tester.

In the mid 2000's, Microsoft was disgusting in its arrogance and disdain for the rest of the industry - but I don't sense that very much these days from Microsoft. Even Steve Balmer's circus antics on stage evoke more a sense of pity for Microsoft rather than fury at its corporate malevolence. These days I get the sense that Microsoft is just focusing on the task of producing improved software, whereas Apple is the one that has now shifted into drinking its own coolaid, thinking that being the top innovator is their birthright, and ignoring the fact that innovative companies can fall all the way to the bottom if they believe their own spin, e.g. Kodak's demise.

It is a truism that pride - the bad-pride that blinds you, not the good-pride of a job well done - comes before a fall. Apple now has bad-pride in spadefuls. It started off as good-pride, but somewhere a worm got into the Apple and it's turned into bad-pride. Looking at companies like General Motors, HP, SONY (remember the days when we'd pay a premium because it's a SONY?) - I'd say a company can go from the heights, down to the gutter, in about 20 years if they get blinded by bad-pride.

What's more? Apple's pride is baked into their DNA by their stated policy of not listening to customers, unless the outcry causes them public shame. Generally, if sales figures are up, Apple won't listen.

In the 2000's, hating Microsoft was a sport for us Apple fans - but I'm now secretly hoping Microsoft comes back to challenge Apple - not because I have any sense of affection for MS (as I do for Apple), but because Apple has shown it has all the hallmarks of becoming what Microsoft was at its worst, and even worse.

The spectre of Apple domination is more frightening than Microsoft-domination. With MS's monopoly, at least their licensing allowed multiple hardware vendors to complete in the marketplace. It is terrifying to think what will happen to the computer marketplace if Apple ever gets to more than 50% market-share, with only ONE vendor for Apple hardware. If Apple acts like a stuck-up, smiling but nevertheless selfish despot with 8-9% marketshare, you can picture how facist they'd be with 70% marketshare of not just OSX software, but 70% marketshare of hardware needed to run that dominant platform.

If Apple refuses to listen if sales figures are up, imagine Apple's level of willingness to listen if they had 70% marketshare.

So I'm cheering for Windows 8, and am looking forward to running it in under VMWare and even on a tablet - although I'd wait to see how go the tablet hardware is, and how smooth the Windows 8 tablet experience is.
 
e.g. Dumbing down software such as iMovie and Final Cut.
I have to say I prefer the old interface of iMovie to the new one, but Final Cut X has gained almost all of its old features and even added new ones. You cannot expect a radically rewritten software to be fully feature complete the first day it gets released. It would take another year (and it did) to get there. In the meantime, the same group of people would be whining that Apple has abandoned professional video editor market with lack of Final Cut updates for two years as the proof.
 
I agree. Apple has taken over the mantle of bad bully, evil empire.

No offense, but your list of "things I don't like in Apple products" doesn't come anywhere near a "bullying evil empire."

You don't like Apple software? Buy Adobe and Microsoft software and run it all on your Mac. There, that solved nearly every complaint you had.

You want 'evil empire?' Look back into the 1990's when we were basically foreced to use IE everywhere because school and work networks wouldn't even support anything else because of the intense body-slam MS put on the entire tech industry by killing competitors left and right like little bugs. Look at the various ways Microsoft won the browser wars and tell me that's anything like Apple changing "save as" into "export a copy." Yeah, I'm not sure I like that either, but calling it evil is crazy.

Microsoft's 20 year reign as a giant monster is a far cry from you not liking 2 of the half-dozen video editing software programs available for the Mac.
 
I hate to say it but as a Mac user of over two decades (basically my whole life) but I am starting to seriouslly consider switching to Windows in a few years.

I've used Macs for 20 years and am also thinking of switching. My reason has more to do with the lack of a mid range desktop computer that isn't an all in one.

As the operating systems get closer to an even playing field there is less of a reason to stay with Apple especially if I can't get the computer that meets my needs.
 
Part of me is interested to see what MS has done here. Could it finally be the version that motivates our industry to get off XP after a decade of ignoring their new releases? Hopefully they've remembered something about how productive people get work done efficiently in a UI.

The other part of me looks at them and sees a total cluster, big, slow, disorganized and directionless, unable to make any sensible order out of the chaos, dragged down by old obligations, stuck in option hell. Desperately clinging to old contracts, old technology, and fading loyalties to keep them afloat.

*Nope, I take it back, I see the same lopsided, screenhogging jumble of pull-downs and crazily sized icons and text and flyouts and ribbon crap and everything that made everyone downgrade back to XP from Vista & 7. Oh well. More interestingly, I wonder how Bill Gates is doing with his robotics work? Much more exciting than another version of windows...
 
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I thought Windows on ARM would be the same Windows 8 with an ARM-compiled kernel. Now that Windows 8 will be just a Windows 7 with Metro UI, I'm waiting for iOSX 10.8 Thundercat. Will it be the real tablet-workstation OS?
 
Really? Who gives a $%&#?

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My question is, are they "working on it" in the same way that they're supposedly "working on" the Microsoft-powered tablet? I seem to remember Microsoft's CEO touting their Slate as "coming soon" when the iPad first came out. Was the just vaporware?

You are so right! And I recall so many people here on this forum predict how badly the iPad would fail to measure up to the Slate, and how Apple was going to fail big-time. Ahhh yes....I remember it well.
 
Windows 8 on ARM (WOA) will do several things:

-Help ARM with a 64 bit ARM chip and continued development, in turn continuing to put a hurting on Intel and AMD.

-Help Apple, because Apple will probably put ARM in a MacBook. Steve always denied a product or feature before it was released.

64 bit development has been underway. They announced it quite some time ago. The ARM on a macbook thing is misunderstood to a degree. There are other components that require power, and it's unlikely to see ARM increase battery life as much as people seem to expect. We don't know how well it would scale up to such a task.
 
As interesting as this is, I feel like Microsoft has one foot in the grave sadly. I haven't seen a product from them in years that actually gets me excited come from Microsoft. Apple has the tablet market, everyone is competing for second place.

It's clear from Microsoft's convoluted and ill-conceived strategy that they're handing the future of personal computing to Apple and the iPad on a silver platter.

Cook, Ive, Forstall et al must be laughing like crazy over their sushi and chai lattes.

Why is this happening? Because Microsoft is a group of lions being led by donkeys. Imagine if Sinofsky could really do what he wanted to do and when he wanted to do it. He's with the wrong organization.
 
Why is this happening? Because Microsoft is a group of lions being led by donkeys. Imagine if Sinofsky could really do what he wanted to do and when he wanted to do it. He's with the wrong organization.

I think its maybe unfair to lay all the blame for Microsoft's woes at the feet of current management.

Lets also not forget that Microsoft is still a huge, and hugely profitable company. By a comfortable margin it is still the largest software company in the world. Its OS still dominates the desktop market, and its enterprise and productivity products are still the de facto world standards. It also has a powerful and innovative leadership position in the gaming console business.

The problems Microsoft faces are these: The technology world is largely moving to a a more mobile and more social metaphor. And secondly, a large component in Microsoft's continued profitability lies in the huge number of legacy Applications, and legacy operating system users. (I think as recently as late last year, more than half of all computers worldwide were still running Windows XP.)

If Microsoft were to toss these users and Applications under the mobile/social "bus" - they'd be taking a huge risk. And for what possible reward?

Every day we hear journalists and users rave about how great Android is. But Microsoft makes more money selling mice and keyboards than Google's total Android revenue.

Microsoft's challenge with Windows 8 will be to thread an incredibly fine needle: Making a desktop OS that a) offers sufficient performance and usability gains to entice enough businesses and consumers to upgrade their existing XP, Vista, Win 7, etc. boxes to the latest version while b) maintaining a sufficient level of backwards capability to support a critical mass of the legacy Applications that are (frankly) Windows raison d'être; and at the same time c) provide a workable platform for tablet and smartphone developers and manufacturers to thrive in an increasingly Apple-centric world.

Not easy. I don't think Bill Gates himself could tackle that challenge with a 100% certainty of success.
 
Are they mad?
This is a company whose user-base clings to old hardware. How many systems out there are still Windows XP?
And they think the best approach is to assume everyone will suddenly buy touch-screen enabled hardware?
Seriously?
I have a 4.5 year old Macbok here still under Snow Leopard.

The iPad's synching of files between iPad and desktop/notebook is really clunky (and, if not for Dropbox for iPad, it'd be hopeless). But that's Apple's paradigm for the iPad.
DropBox is the salvation for cross platform file sharing. I do not know what I would do without it being practically everywhere.
 
My god, this is why Microsoft fails over and over.

Instead of designing something with USE CASES in mind, like Apple does, they figure out how to take what they've already done, and cram it into some other form factor.

Brilliant!
 
My god, this is why Microsoft fails over and over.

Instead of designing something with USE CASES in mind, like Apple does, they figure out how to take what they've already done, and cram it into some other form factor.

Brilliant!

I don't know in what point Microsoft approach isn't aligned with "use cases in mind". They're trying to design a platform capable of running entertainment apps and productivity apps. They know that the main flaws of Apple model are the lack of convergence between the Mac family and the iStuff family.

The first one to reach such degree of convergence (it would be iOS+OSX or WinPhone+Win8 or Android+Linux) will get a big portion of customers looking for more than toy apps and browsing facebook in a mobile device.
 
Linux [is] going the tablet way. Computing used to be fun. Now there's Gnome 3...

Are you confusing Linux with Gnome ?

Both are quite separate projects that aren't quite related. Gnome's direction has nothing to do with Linux. If you think "Linux is going the tablet way", you obviously don't quite understand what is and isn't Linux.

The fact is, Linux has been running on mobile devices and embedded appliances for close to a decade now. That doesn't change the fact that it still has powerful desktop GUIs, is highly configurable and comes with dozens and dozens of flavors for PCs and other computing platforms.

Linux will always be there if Microsoft and Apple manage to lock down their computing environnements in ways we don't like.
 
Are you confusing Linux with Gnome ?

Both are quite separate projects that aren't quite related. Gnome's direction has nothing to do with Linux. If you think "Linux is going the tablet way", you obviously don't quite understand what is and isn't Linux.

The fact is, Linux has been running on mobile devices and embedded appliances for close to a decade now. That doesn't change the fact that it still has powerful desktop GUIs, is highly configurable and comes with dozens and dozens of flavors for PCs and other computing platforms.

Linux will always be there if Microsoft and Apple manage to lock down their computing environnements in ways we don't like.

Yeah I know all that stuff. I've even worked on the Linux kernel in order to make it play nice with an arm board (amlogic) and some android stuff.

KDE is crap nowadays, version 2 was the best, 3 was so so. Mate is still in development, let's see how it goes. Other window managers are fun and all but lack many features.

What is going the tablet way is the graphical interface and many distros are dumbing down the desktop experience. I do like command line but no way I'm working with command line every day.

Sorry for the generic one size fits all comment, but computing is getting sad. I've dumped windows in favor to mac os after learning more dos / windows stuff that I would ever need to do 99% of regular tasks (servicing windows machines:(). Mac os x brought a fresh experience not provided by windows or Linux or even bsd. Nowadays there's lion. Well let's not talk about lion.

I hope that the beos successor, haiku gets enough momentum in order to stay afloat. Currently is the so that gives me more hope, since the hapy days I've used beos.
 
I hate to say it but as a Mac user of over two decades (basically my whole life) but I am starting to seriouslly consider switching to Windows in a few years. If MacOS and related admin software continues to get feature reduced (see latest case in AirPort Utiltiy 6) I may have to look for an OS built for users not consumers.

I like my iPad, but I don't want my Mac to be a replica.

For me the issue is that the gap between Mac and Windows is closing to the point where one has to ask, when upgrade time rolls around, whether it is now worth spending the extra money for Mac OS X when Windows 8 will be so close to providing the same seamless experience.

If in 4-5 years time Windows 9 has really progressed to the point that the gap Mac OS X and Windows is non-existent I'd be strongly tempted just to jump ship. The reality is that Apple really need to pull finger and address the issues of Mac OS X and their obvious ignoring of the Mac user base in favour of the i-device users - the lack of Pages/Keynote/Numbers upgrades, the lack of addressing Mac OS X issues such as the lack of OpenGL 4.x, the horrible graphics performance when it comes to games or even just professional applications that use OpenGL, the lack of fixing up bugs that are holding back developers, their refusal to listen to developers when it comes to the sandboxing debacle that is taking place right now etc.

Crossing my fingers for a real Microsoft renaissance here. :D

With Steven having run Office with great success I'm not surprised that Windows is going to be successful as well.

I don't really understand what the point of a "limited desktop mode" is if applications have to be rewritten for ARM anyways.

The 'limited desktop mode' has already been explained (did you actually READ the linked article or did you just read the Macrumors synopsis?) - the desktop mode is limited because it is only there for you to run Microsoft Office and that is all. I'd say that in 2-3 years you'll see the front end to Microsoft Office re-written in XAML to avoid the whole need for the limited desktop in favour of stripping it out of the ARM OS altogether.
 
The 'limited desktop mode' has already been explained (did you actually READ the linked article or did you just read the Macrumors synopsis?) - the desktop mode is limited because it is only there for you to run Microsoft Office and that is all. I'd say that in 2-3 years you'll see the front end to Microsoft Office re-written in XAML to avoid the whole need for the limited desktop in favour of stripping it out of the ARM OS altogether.

If this turns out to be true, a better approach would have been to just have a stripped down working metro version like Pages for iOS, and then they can iterate if they need something more feature complete.

This hacked together work-around is just disgusting.
 
KDE is crap nowadays, version 2 was the best, 3 was so so. Mate is still in development, let's see how it goes. Other window managers are fun and all but lack many features.

I think your problem is you want "features" for features sake. Computing isn't about desktop GUI features. My current Linux installation uses Enlightenment DR16. Yeah, that thing, from 10 years ago. Works like a charm as a minimal application launcher to manage a few windows. I use GNU screen to manage multiple terminal sessions.

Frankly, computing is what you make of it. Linux empowers you to do so, it's in no way "going the way of the tablet".
 
I think your problem is you want "features" for features sake. Computing isn't about desktop GUI features. My current Linux installation uses Enlightenment DR16. Yeah, that thing, from 10 years ago. Works like a charm as a minimal application launcher to manage a few windows. I use GNU screen to manage multiple terminal sessions.

Frankly, computing is what you make of it. Linux empowers you to do so, it's in no way "going the way of the tablet".

I'm happy using gnome 2 but some day it will be unsupported. Gnome 3 has many useless gimmicks, KDE went the same way with the plasma thing. I don't want shinny features only one thing that works. And gnome 2 does, its simple and fast (not as fast as enlightenment).
 
If this turns out to be true, a better approach would have been to just have a stripped down working metro version like Pages for iOS, and then they can iterate if they need something more feature complete.

This hacked together work-around is just disgusting.

Bro - it's Microsoft we're talking about so don't be surprised. Microsoft develops Direct2D/DirectWrite for hardware acceleration and after developing it they use it in a grand total of ONE application - Internet Explorer 9. They seem to find gold then spend billions to then try to turn it into lead.

As for a stripped down version - I agree. I don't think anyone is under the illusion that when running a tablet that you'll ever be able to have a full version feature complete Office - the most I hear people want is the ability to open up their document, edit it and then save it. The thing that confuses me is that for all the focus group and feedback Microsoft obtains, why are they so obsessed with ramming a feature complete version of Office onto a tablet?

For all the problems of Apple I think they actually get it - keep the desktop OS as a desktop OS with some additions from iOS where it makes sense, develop iOS, properly support the hardware and voila the customers will follow. Apple is selling more Mac's than they ever have and the iOS devices are flying out the door too due to the low entry price thanks to contracts offered by carriers which makes me wonder why we haven't seen a MacBook Air with built in 3G capabilities being sold on contract with a data plan attached to it.

Oh well, I just hope that we'll see updated version of Pages/Keynote/Numbers for Mac OS X within the next 6 months :D
 
Ummm....Apple products are no more expensive than their competitors. Seriously, elementary kids have Galaxy S2s and iPhones. Everything is subsidized. I honestly don't know anyone who gets an iPhone because it makes them look cool/hip/important/well off. As far as looking sleek, I also don't know anyone that thinks a brick looks sleek. A brick, seriously now.

I never said they were more expensive, but a smartphone is definitely more expensive than a flip-phone. Just saying, there are people with Apple gear who should be conserving their money more. And about everyone I know who has a 4S got it just to look cool with their Siri. It is very sleek, and if you call it a brick, every smartphone and most PCs are also bricks. What did you expect, a sphere?

The competitors are just as expensive, but it seems like more people who shouldn't have iPhones get drawn into them than people who get drawn into Droids or something. Also, if you buy a new Mac, you are buying a high-spec, high price PC. The specs are good enough to justify the high price, but a lot of Mac users should really be using either an old Mac (cheaper and slower) or a low-end, non-Apple PC (also cheaper and slower).

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I don't know in what point Microsoft approach isn't aligned with "use cases in mind". They're trying to design a platform capable of running entertainment apps and productivity apps. They know that the main flaws of Apple model are the lack of convergence between the Mac family and the iStuff family.

The first one to reach such degree of convergence (it would be iOS+OSX or WinPhone+Win8 or Android+Linux) will get a big portion of customers looking for more than toy apps and browsing facebook in a mobile device.

I'd consider OSX + iOS very together. I was amazed at how well my iOS device worked with my 2006 Mac.
 
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