Claefer
macrumors regular
I'm not talking about UI design.
Microsoft Previews Windows 8 for Tablets and PCs
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I'm not talking about UI design.
balamw
Moderator emeritus
Neither am I.
As I have said before, I design electronics hardware, firmware and software. What do you design?
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APlotdevice
macrumors 68040
And what about application support? You really think the whole x86/ARM thing isn't going to be a major point of confusion for users, when both products claim to be "Windows 8"?
Claefer
macrumors regular
Then why did you post a link that "discusses how to design a simple user interface without sacrificing functionality."
Once more, the context of my post was not about complexity in UI design. It was about Microsoft not making any compromises with Windows 8.
I don't know, I'm not sure. I guess that's a valid point . . . but we'll see what happens when it's officially out.
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balamw
Moderator emeritus
Because the same principles apply no matter what you are designing. Simple is generally better, easier to maintain, less chance of confusion, etc...
Engineering is all about tradeoffs, and the most important part of that is deciding what you are not going to do.
Microsoft gets this. Despite chuckling about Apple's decision not to include cut and paste in iOS and not supporting Flash or other plug-ins. They seem to be making some of the same choices with WP7 and W8 for Tablets.
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Claefer
macrumors regular
Oh, okay, I see your point now. Simple can be good but not when things are too simple. Look at the default Finder in Lion and look at the new Windows Explorer in Windows 8.
I'm afraid Apple will never create a device that will allow users to switch between two OSs and that's a mistake, I think. But Microsoft isn't afraid of that sort of complexity, so to speak.
i LOL'ed
And not to start any fights... but when "someone" said that Lion was not a mess of things where they didnt know what to do...
what in gods name is launch pad for?? i have the Dock for all my stuff, i dont need to click launch pad in my dock to bring up more icons to sort through...
Now... maybe if apple releases some touchscreen imac or mac book, then it makes a bit more sense...
All of that is very confusing, then again, journalists of today are usually shiet. Take the last paragraph for example. The author seems to somehow believe that "being equally home on ARM or x86" implies cross-compatibility, while it in reality just implies that both architectures will provide an OS just as rich (actually hinting in the opposite direction from the journalists conclusion).
So: ARM and x86 will not (as we already knew) be cross-compatible per se. As result, ARM will not be able to run legacy applications (as they are compiled for x86, not ARM). Even still, ARM can be just as rich*, and boast both the desktop and the metro experience...
* Obviously, developers would have to either target the common platform, or compile for both x86 and ARM to reach all customers. As it is unlikely that EVERYONE will do this (especially not with year-old-software), the ARM version will be a bit hampered at first regardless, but over time i dont think this will be a problem (MSFT has, from the looks of it, made an effort to make cross-development very simple). And, after all, for most purposes you really dont need anything but the Metro - and when you do, then we're generally talking about professional suites with clear incentives to do the little extra for the sake of customer satisfaction.
people are getting accustomed to downloading applications in store. heck, most of the not-so-savvy i guess never downloaded applications outside of the store either. once in store, everything they see they will be able to run. really not that big of a deal. yes, people will go
when they cant get the programs they are currently using on to their ARM-device, but like stated above, the programs most are using for any real purpose will probably be there on ARM too anyway. The rare few who gets dropped somewhere in the middle, well... if the shoe doesnt fit, go buy a Mac, see how many programs that work there..
Bad stigma is generally with us geeks. For the rest, windows signals familiar. Familiar is always good. And, after all, theres the saying: rather a well-known hell, than an unknown paradise. (That said, W7 is way more heaven than hell).
I prefer my desktop clean and clutter free, just like my desk (truth: my desk is full of piles with paper, and i usually have so many icons on the desktop that i end up making a folder named desktop_date and drag them all in there).
Why restrict ourselves to one, when we can have both? The desktop is what we have spent the last few decades familiarizing ourselves with. Why mess with it, rather than going for a somewhat clean-break?
OS is already slimmed down to half of W7 at launch. It boots in seconds on 5 year old hardware. Bugs, havent really seen any in years. Nothing note-worthy at least.
Because hardware space is so expensive? MSFT caters to pretty much the entire world when it comes to computing. Going Apple on people and forcing everyone to have online access (or selling an expensive driver-usb) is not a good way to go. And, whats the problem with drivers today? Works like a charm to me (wouldnt be surprised if it has a central repository of drivers already anyway. it must go somewhere to search when it goes to look drivers up online).
Essentially, the "Metro team" is in charge of Windows (there is only Windows).
The desktop isnt loaded when you're not using it. As such, performance impact is slim to none.
...they could, and perhaps should, offer subsidized "just metro" tablets for the sake of flooding the market though. Not like they cant afford it, or that it wont be profitable over time.
Its more likely that MSFT supports W7 in 2020, than that they wouldnt support W7 in 2 years. Unlike others, MSFT has always had the long perspective.
W7 is great. Hardly need a mac to enjoy a nice OS nowadays.
What Applications do you think are better off as desktop, and yet will not provided (despite the relative ease of cross-development). No doubt, W8 will have apps. No doubt, most of those will run on both x86 and ARM. No doubt, MSFT will hide any complexity from the user.
We havent had to care whether or not we have X or Y as a Z-card for decades. Now, we (almost) wont have to care whether or not we have A or B architecture.
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Bernard SG
macrumors 65816
Make no mistake: it’s the massive success of the iPad that pushes Microsoft to make Windows 8: iPad might well reach the milestone of 100 million units annual sales by 2012, and badly hurt Windows sales (netbooks and laptops).
The key of modern computing is that the general user wants minimal interaction with the OS. What users want is to run applications that are useful to them for a specific purpose without the system getting in the way. Understanding that is what has lead Apple to its current success with iOS, especially iPad, and that’s what they are trying to extend to the Mac with Lion.
When you power on an iPad what you see is apps screaming "look at me, LOOK AT ME!" like Arran said in post #784. Actually, the specificity of iOS’ UI is its quasi-inexistence and it proved to be a powerful concept. Something similar takes place with the Mac’s Dock albeit at a smaller scale.
On the other side, Microsoft with Windows 8/Metro is doing the absolute contrary: You fire up your device, what you see is Metro UI, i.e. the system. In other words, Microsoft is interposing a layer between the user and the action he wants his device to perform. I have a really hard time to comprehend how tech-savvy people, posters here or bloggers all over the interwebs, can view such heresy as a brilliant technological leap forward.
Apple delivers a device and then takes the back-seat, letting the story be between the user and the developer. Microsoft imposes its presence to the user in an egomaniac fashion.
The key of modern computing is that the general user wants minimal interaction with the OS. What users want is to run applications that are useful to them for a specific purpose without the system getting in the way. Understanding that is what has lead Apple to its current success with iOS, especially iPad, and that’s what they are trying to extend to the Mac with Lion.
When you power on an iPad what you see is apps screaming "look at me, LOOK AT ME!" like Arran said in post #784. Actually, the specificity of iOS’ UI is its quasi-inexistence and it proved to be a powerful concept. Something similar takes place with the Mac’s Dock albeit at a smaller scale.
On the other side, Microsoft with Windows 8/Metro is doing the absolute contrary: You fire up your device, what you see is Metro UI, i.e. the system. In other words, Microsoft is interposing a layer between the user and the action he wants his device to perform. I have a really hard time to comprehend how tech-savvy people, posters here or bloggers all over the interwebs, can view such heresy as a brilliant technological leap forward.
Apple delivers a device and then takes the back-seat, letting the story be between the user and the developer. Microsoft imposes its presence to the user in an egomaniac fashion.
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Steve121178
macrumors 604
Huh? Windows '8' was scheduled for 2012 long before Windows 7 was even released as a public Beta.
brdeveloper
macrumors 68030
The only problem with Vista was manufacturers selling under dimensioned hardware for a heavier OS than XP. It was common - at the time when Vista was launched - being installed in Celeron-based computers and Pentiums with Intel GMA cards.
balamw
Moderator emeritus
That was far from the only problem with Vista pre-SP1. This early bug killed me. http://it.slashdot.org/story/07/03/27/038227/Vista-Slow-To-Copy-Delete-Files.
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I suspect Apple will surprise us all by how they take on the coexistence between OS X and iOS. They certainly didn't do what anyone expected with their take on the tablet.
My guess would be ARM based MBAs with touch screens, or possibly a hybrid x86/ARM box that can run both OSes natively.
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APlotdevice
macrumors 68040
Most applications going forward may support ARM, but none of the legacy apps will. And that is going to be a big problem. I practically guarantee when this comes out, internet forums are going to be flooded with things like "HELP!!!! How do I install my programs on my new Windows tablet???" and "OMG! I just bought a tablet and it won't let me install my games!!!"
Yeah, if the ipad never had been launched we would've been stuck with W7 forever..
p.s.
In my opinion metro takes away one layer, as it allows me to get at-a-glance information there-and-then, rather than having to click an icon. How on earth iOS allows the story to be told by the developer, without acting as the middle-man, i will never know. But like they say: to each his own.
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Why is that going to be a big problem? Which of the legacy apps that people most need will not have been recompiled for W8 (both x86 and ARM) at launch? At first, i thought what you are thinking now. Then i realized, there really isnt much of a problem to think of.
As for installing programs, how bout clicking the App icon (e.g. on a webpage) that installs everything for you, or going to the App store and looking it up yourself? Yeah, man... thats complicated. Thats why we see millions of iOS (and Android) users asking the same question over and over again online... oh wait, we dont. :- )
...if anything, installation just got easier (as the process is stewarded by the OS).
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No! When Ballmer saw the ipad he went OMFGWTFFUFUFU! and Jobs went, U MAD BRO? U JELLY??!! U JELLY!!?!?! So Ballmer ran crying to his friends (jumping around) and said: I CAN HAZ WINDOWZ 8 NOW PLOX?!?!
APlotdevice
macrumors 68040
Much of that information can be displayed in the form of notifications on the lock screen in iOS 5. And for most apps those tiles will probably be nothing more than an icon.Yeah, if the ipad never had been launched we would've been stuck with W7 forever..
p.s.
In my opinion metro takes away one layer, as it allows me to get at-a-glance information there-and-then, rather than having to click an icon. How on earth iOS allows the story to be told by the developer, without acting as the middle-man, i will never know. But like they say: to each his own.
Games. Games. Games. Windows is a big gaming platform. Some older games like Starcraft and Counterstrike classic are still very popular, and will never be updated to run on ARM. Nor will most existing games.
Also existing versions of applications like Word and Photoshop. Many people are still running copies released several years ago. And even this year's incarnations probably won't be recompiled to run on ARM.
The comparison to iOS is flawed. Apple never claimed that iOS was Mac OS. There is no expectation for it to be able to install old programs. Also iOS apps are cheap, and the latest versions are usually provided as a free update.
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But I'm guessing you had no problem when Apple did that, introducing the concept of PPC, Intel, Universal binary, and Rosetta which can be pretty damn confusing to your average computer user. Or OS 9 classic which ran apps inside OSX with mixed results and had *gasp* two ****ing interfaces!
ct2k7
macrumors G3
That is very true - and that itself lead to its many problems consumers faced.
Bernard SG
macrumors 65816
But I'm guessing you had no problem when Apple did that, introducing the concept of PPC, Intel, Universal binary, and Rosetta which can be pretty damn confusing to your average computer user. Or OS 9 classic which ran apps inside OSX with mixed results and had *gasp* two ****ing interfaces!
That was an entirely different beast.
First, it happened in a way that was transparent to the user,
Second it was clearly about transitioning from a platform to another.
Here with Windows 8 it's about going to several different directions in the same time (ARM or X86; PC or tablet). Microsoft suffers from corporate ADHD.
IMO, at this point in time, if Microsoft wants to really matter in the future, they need to do two things about their core products:
- deliver an iPad version of their Office suite (in the same manner that Office was originally developed for Mac OS) which is best way to figure out the relevant destination in terms of tablet computing;
- consolidate the current momentum Windows 7 seems to be getting, in terms of XP users finally upgrading to 7.
Instead of that they're working on a bastardized project, basing it on a Metro UI that is evidently an abject failure on the WP 7 front, and that's gonna hugely piss off their Windows user-base. Just because they are butt-hurt with the iPad phenomenon. Emotional reaction instead of rational progression.
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1) Notification screens are great, but hardly a substitute for tiles (which quite naturally works both ways). Further, i would argue that notifications per definition are more intrusive than at-a-glance information (this however, is part by design, so it its not all bad). Also, a notification screen undoubtedly puts information at least one step away from where i am, which is not the case with tiles (once again, there are trade-offs at play. both serve similar purposes, but are in no way equivalent or substitutes for each other).
2) Why do you think that "for most apps those tiles will probably be nothing more than an icon"? Why would i want a weather app that doesnt tell me the weather on the tile? A news app that doesn't tell me something about the feed? A TV app, not telling me something about whats on TV? And so on, and so forth.
In an economy that more an more revolves around information and services, one would be daft not to take advantage of the added functionality that tiles offer (and, hopefully, out of business quite soon).
Granted, for some applications its use may be quite slim. For example, i dont really know what kind of information i would like associated with my iexplorer tile, or my office tile. Of course, it could push information ABOUT iex. and office, but to be frank such information is of little interest to me
I doubt hardcore gamers will turn to ARM-based tablets to begin with, just like they wont buy a netbook to play crysis. Obviously we have these issues already, and not many gamers will buy an ARM-tablet by mistake anyway... thus, does it really matter? :- )
And if those people want the benefits of ARM without upgrading, well.. tough luck. MSFT isnt killing anyone here. If you need to rely on legacy software, stick with the x86 architecture. If you dont need to rely on legacy software, and are willing to upgrade existing software - good for you!
(Why would this years incarnation be recompiled for a non-existing platform? At least wait until the platform is launched before asking people to re-compile for it)
1) Find me one customer that has bought an ARM device not knowing fully what they got themselves into. You cant? Big surprise.
2) Most people dont really install software. For these people, the App store will be the natural place to find new applications, resulting in zero confusion.
3) What says Metro or Windows-apps must be expensive by definition? Last time i checked there were some hefty-priced apps for iOS too (e.g. CAD-stuff).
4) People not willing to upgrade should, as already stated, not upgrade their hardware to ARM. Verrrrry simple. So simple that i could probably even make my father get it (and he has issues making attachments to emails).
I can see people worrying about the forward-expectation issues; i.e. buying into to a platform that doesn't deliver as hoped (e.g. no Office, no this, not that). Like stated i really don't think that will end up being a problem though. And, in the end, the people who are most dependent on these things are usually ones who can pay the extra buck for added performance anyway.
ADDENDUM:
With regards to your first paragraph:
It is not so much the ability to display information that is relevant here, but the way in which said information is displayed.
Where is this pissed of Windows user-base that you are speaking of? Heck, even the Apple people at the office are excited (in fact, even the sun-dude probably is, but he - much like LTD - has made a thing out of hating MSFT so he'd never admit it openly). From simple users to gold certified developers, there are plenty of smiles to go around. Heck, i feel childish too when i sit here and type in anticipation.
I guess its hard to digest, but people do like what they are seeing. Metro is appealing, regardless of the mediocre WP7 sales (if WP7 had all apps, and more well-designed phones, making people switch over would be quite easy i'd assume. The OS is hardly the issue here).
In 5 years from launch W8 will have sold over half a billion licenses. W8 PCs and tablets will dominate the office space. Hate it all you want, but that wont change the future any more than it could change the past.
And as for Apple, dont worry.. they will keep doing their thing and make nice profit out of doing it. Maybe in 7 years from now, they will pull another "iPhone", who knows... until then, the future is pretty much set in stone (not because Apple are bad, but because of the way things just work).
KingCrimson
macrumors 65816
Oh boy, this is really OTT Apple fanboyism.
APlotdevice
macrumors 68040
Notifications can take you right to the relevant application. No additional step required. And they show up right on the lock screen, so you don't even have to unlock your device to see them.
2) Why do you think that "for most apps those tiles will probably be nothing more than an icon"? Why would i want a weather app that doesnt tell me the weather on the tile? A news app that doesn't tell me something about the feed? A TV app, not telling me something about whats on TV? And so on, and so forth.
In an economy that more an more revolves around information and services, one would be daft not to take advantage of the added functionality that tiles offer (and, hopefully, out of business quite soon).
Granted, for some applications its use may be quite slim. For example, i dont really know what kind of information i would like associated with my iexplorer tile, or my office tile. Of course, it could push information ABOUT iex. and office, but to be frank such information is of little interest to me
And that's my point. Not everything is a weather or news app. For an Internet browser, word processor, spreadsheet, any kind of graphics program, general media player, etc, there is nothing to convey. Thus it's just an icon.
Well no bleepity BLEEP I couldn't find such a customer. It has never really been an issue before. ARM devices have traditionally ran a completely different operating system. Most consumers are familiar with the basic concept of an operating system. They know you need Windows to run a program made for Windows. Far fewer understand anything about processing architectures.
Most gamers are casual. Yes, even people who play CSC. These folks often don't have a strong grasp of hardware. They just upgrade to something newer when their current system can no longer cut it.
No, but confusion can come when they are unable to find the programs they expect to find for Windows.
The point is that it can cost a lot to replace your applications with new compatible versions in Windows.
Be prepared to explain the difference between x86 and ARM. And probably having him stare at you with a blank face during most of it.
I don't think people usually pay the extra buck just to run Word.
Bernard SG
macrumors 65816
Sure, thanks your insightful contribution to the debate.
A separate screen is per se an additional step, and pop-ups (or similar alerts of any kind) are intrusive. That said, notifications arent a bad approach at all, i would definitely add a notification screen to wp7 (and maybe W8) if i was in charge. Notifications can not, however, substitute tiles (and vice versa - as evidenced by the fact that people want both).
(the only thing i dont want, personally, is popup notifications.. i'd take a led anytime. heck, just the sound notification is bad enough -- leave me be machine!*).
* theres quite a lot of interesting research on exactly how disruptive these little interruptions actually are.
At least not as much (could still push update info, last used document etc.). We are, however, living in an information age rich in services and social interaction, and word processors, browsers etc. are in this context rather exception than rule.
And thus they will get the concept that for Windows 8 you buy applications in the store. (And those of us who are savvy enough to know that this isnt entirely true are not bothered by any confusion anyway). Simple as that, really. :- )
Casual or not, they know computers enough not to be confused. We're not talking about people playing flash games or solitaire here.
yes, as stated forward expectation can be an issue here, as with any platform. i dont think the problem, in reality, will be that big though (as in: affect that many people).
Not more than it would cost to upgrade anyway. Like stated, if you dont want to upgrade, dont.
I wouldnt have to. he understand that his lp player doesnt play cd's. Similarly, he would understand that for tablet X you buy applications in the app-store (frankly, i doubt he ever installed an application to begin with)
I'd pay premium for that. So would most people who need a proper word processor. Also, its not like word is all that they get - is it? MSFTs app store will have plenty of apps to go around, and yes, many of them will be cross-platform.