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A few back someone claimed that Apple dropped an affordable quad-core mini-tower since it wasn't profitable. (As if anyone here really knows anything about product line financials at Apple :rolleyes:.)

I'm trying to find out what was meant by that strange comment.

Here's the odd post:

Last Mini Tower? Sounds like he was referring to the G3 and G4 towers.
 
Last Mini Tower? Sounds like he was referring to the G3 and G4 towers.

Or G5 SP, or whatever else was Apple's last sub 2000$ tower product. He's of course ignoring the post where I said multi-core wasn't on Intel's roadmap when Apple last produced his oh so "me want me want" cheap tower product.
 
Ad puts Microsoft in mediocrity city.

Don't have to hunt very far to find a mediocre notebook and an unemployed mediocre professional to go with it. Truth is the people moving the planet forward are mostly going to have the best tools regardless of price.
 
So which of these numerous outlets would you recommend I choose if i had a complaint?
In the Website Feedback section, there are a number of links. So, say I had a complaint about one of their products, I would click on the link labelled "Product Feedback". I dunno, too subtle?
 

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I don't really care either way.
Which is exactly what I've said about 50 times with regards to OSX/Windows. All the applications I use daily are available for both platforms, and which one I end up using on any given day comes down to whether I want to work in my studio or my living room. That's how little it matters. Yet I often get singled out for being some sort of MS fanboy, when actual MS fanboys who bash Apple unreservedly (such as "mosx") somehow manage to fly under the radar. Or maybe you simply don't dare go after mosx because he will bury you in so much text it'll make your head spin.
 
And you're saying they were profitable (of course judging not from Apple's last cheap tower endevour but a 5 year old product). I'm still waiting for you to come up with sales charts showing that the sales figure were good all the way until they decided their towers were 2000$+ Pro workstations only.

Also, if you don't think it was because of declining sales and lost of profit, why do you think Apple abandoned the market ? Because you guys can say what you want, that is what they did.

I'm looking at the present, and at the

...... h u g e ...... g a p i n g ....... h o l e .......

in Apple's product line between the mini-Mac and the maxi-tower.

You are the one making the claims that Apple grew that huge gaping hole because of profit issues with the older towers.

So I think that it's your problem to produce those sales figures and financial charts - not mine. If you can show that towers weren't profitable then, perhaps you can also prove that the huge gaping hole is an important part of Apples profit plans.

Maybe the next set of Microsoft ads will be "Desktop Hunters" !! :eek:
 
Which is exactly what I've said about 50 times with regards to OSX/Windows. All the applications I use daily are available for both platforms, and which one I end up using on any given day comes down to whether I want to work in my studio or my living room. That's how little it matters. Yet I often get singled out for being some sort of MS fanboy, when actual MS fanboys who bash Apple unreservedly (such as "mosx") somehow manage to fly under the radar. Or maybe you simply don't dare go after mosx because he will bury you in so much text it'll make your head spin.

Oh no, don't get me wrong, I know mosx is mostly just a troll. The thing with you is that in both threads about ads now you've had multiple posts per page and about 95% of it is about something that is wrong with Apple.

If you look through this thread, I've replied to mosx once or twice. Unfortunately, he didn't bother to reply back to my posts.
 
I'm looking at the present, and at the

...... h u g e ...... g a p i n g ....... h o l e .......

in Apple's product line between the mini-Mac and the maxi-tower.

You are the one making the claims that Apple grew that huge gaping hole because of profit issues with the older towers.

So I think that it's your problem to produce those sales figures and financial charts - not mine. If you can show that towers weren't profitable then, perhaps you can also prove that the huge gaping hole is an important part of Apples profit plans.

Maybe the next set of Microsoft ads will be "Desktop Hunters" !! :eek:

Why should I produce sales chart ? The last semi affordable tower was the Power Mac G5 SP, 1.6 ghz, at 1799$ starting November 2003. If Apple never produced another and let that gapping hole start, they must have a reason.

Now what is logically the only reason a company drops a product offering or leaves a market segment ? The only answer is profitability. Companies don't just pack up and go home unless they're not able to make money.

If you want to argue that the mid-range was always profitable to Apple, then please prove me wrong.
 
Whats my point of the last 3 post, Apple never has and never will sell or produce a budget mid size tower, after Steve's is dead there might be slim chance but I would not hold my breath. Many have already pointed out in previous threads that desktops will soon be a thing of the past and only used by creative professionals who need the power of a real workstation.
 
the thing is the guy had $1500 to spend on a laptop

he said macs were underpowered and were all about aesthetics

but the reality is that he couldve bought a unibody MB with a memory upgrade to 4GB and a HDD upgrade to 250GB for less than the required $1500,

so he couldve had a sexier laptop, which 1 wouldnt have broken down as much as a HP machine, and 2 running on OSX wouldnt have been underpowered as the HP.

weve established he knows that macs are more expensive, but he wouldve been within his budget and got a better machine with the mac
 
They aren't trying to make you use their crap headphones.

Why would they design the Shuffle like that then? There's no other reason for it. It's for brand recognition, because the headphones are usually more visible than the device itself, and they want other people on the street to see their headphones when you use their device. If they sounded good, then no complaints, but they're crap.
 
Probably has something to do with the lack of thermal headroom. Apple painted themselves into the "thinness" corner a long time ago, they can never release a new product that's thicker than the last one, so they're constantly having to come up with new compromises, the logical conclusion of this race to nowhere being the MBA which is so crippled in every conceivable way, the real magic trick isn't how they managed to make it fit inside an envelope but how they managed to remove so many things and still make people want to buy it.

IBM probably had a functioning mobile G5 at some point, and it would probably have worked inside something with the thermal headroom of a HP or Dell mobile workstation, but it would melt a PowerBook enclosure. So Apple found themselves in a dead end and had to sit by and watch Intel PC notebooks run circles around the PB G4 at ever increasing speeds. And it's happening again with cutting edge mobile GPUs and mobile quad-core. The form factor puts a cap on the power.

Unfortunately you've hit the nail on the head. They've sacrificed functionality for form factor and now they seem to think that people want it thinner and thinner and won't reverse course.

I will admit, I do like how thin my MacBook is. But I know that there are much more powerful systems out there that are not that much bigger. Functionality is far more important than form and somebody at Apple needs to realize this. I mean, look at the Dell Studio XPS 13. It's 0.88" at the front and 1.35" at the back. It's only an iPod classic thicker than the MacBook, yet it offers dual GPUs, faster processor options, and standard features like card readers, HDMI, full size ExpressCard, and others.

Functionality is far more important than style or being super thin. I have the MacBook and an HP with dedicated graphics, bigger screen, full size ExpressCard, HDMI, VGA, S-Video, card readers, and a lot of other features the Mac doesn't have, like Firewire. Even though the HP weighs 2 pounds more and is thicker, guess which one I take with me everywhere and use more? The HP. Why? Because functionality is more important than looking cool.

On to replying to other posts:

So you can shout about specs all you want. Do your 'pro' PCs run Mac OS X? No they don't, they run Vista. Game over.

Honestly, this system: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834152099 running Vista is far more capable than anything Apple currently offers. The hardware combined with Vista just blows away the MacBooks and MacBook Pros. Why? Well, look at the hardware. It has the same processor as the $1,999 MacBook, yet costs $700 less. It has a 1GB GeForce 9800M GS, a blu-ray reader/DVD writer combo drive, a 7200RPM 320GB HDD, full size ExpressCard, 4GB of RAM, VGA, HDMI, eSATA, card reader, etc. It also supports Dolby Digital Live, something you can't get in OS X at all. Not only will this system play my blu-ray discs on my HDTV or 23.5" display (which is 16x9 unlike Apple's 16x10 displays), but if i'm playing a game it will take the 5.1 signal from those games and encode it in Dolby Digital in real time, so I get 5.1 sound from games or any audio source. True 5.1 sound, not VHS like Pro-logic like you get with the majority of iTunes movies and TV shows. Even better is that system has a number pad, something Apple doesn't even offer on external keyboards and is a "custom" option you have to order on their desktop keyboards now.

Thats good that you prefer OS X. It's your choice to like what you want. But don't try to say it's better than Windows. Because it's most certainly not. Functionality is the most important thing to consider when buying or using computers, and Windows combined with modern hardware is far more capable than OS X on modern hardware.

Yes, it's marketing speak with an incredibly powerful placebo effect, to the point where you can take the exact same product you sell to consumers, slap the "Pro" label on it and have 95% of the users say "wow, this feels so much better/sturdier/more reliable/more well built than the standard version".

ProTools became an industry standard in digital audio recording not because it was better than anything else, but because it was called _Pro_ Tools. How can it not be the best? It says "pro" on it so it must be.

Few have exploited it more shamelessly than Apple, though.

Again, you hit the nail right on the head. Can't be said any better than that.

No, the mid-range/low-end tower is more something like this : "Hey look, notebook sales are outpacing desktop sales by a large margin. Good thing we had the foresight to get out of that market when our own mid-range tower offerings stopped being profitable years ago".

The last affordable tower computers buy Apple had dismal sales. Ever since, the industry has noted the decline of the desktop computer. And you want Apple to suddenly go back to it because ... ?

You make it sound as if notebooks are outselling desktops 4:1 or something extreme. http://www.businessinsider.com/2008/12/notebook-pc-sales-outpace-desktops-good-news-for-apple-aapl 38.6 million notebook sales compared to 38.5 million desktop sales. It's not exactly like desktop sales are falling off a cliff. Most of that notebook sales growth comes from netbooks, a market Apple has yet to enter.

Apple's notebook sales might be higher than their desktop sales by a greater margin. But thats not because people prefer notebooks so much as it is that Apple doesn't offer any good desktops to begin with. The iMac is a laptop on a stand with a bigger screen. The Mac mini is too crippled for its own good and can't even begin to compete, spec wise, with PC desktops in the same price range. And the Mac Pro is just an overpriced consumer desktop with a server processor.

Let's also not forget that, again, the PC gaming market is bigger than Apple's entire market. To the PC gaming market, laptops are secondary systems that will never be able to replace high end desktops.

So while the notebook market might be "outpacing" the desktop market, it's due in large part to systems that Apple doesn't even make. And Apple's notebooks only outsell their desktops because they don't offer any desktops worth buying.

I also fail to see how Apple's desktops aren't profitable, considering how weak the hardware is and the insane prices they charge for that weak hardware.

One last thing to consider is the fact that Apple's GPU choices for the current Mac Pro lineup is... well.. pathetic. People who need real rendering power are going to turn away from Apple and towards other desktops.
 
Why should I produce sales chart ? The last semi affordable tower was the Power Mac G5 SP, 1.6 ghz, at 1799$ starting November 2003. If Apple never produced another and let that gapping hole start, they must have a reason.

Now what is logically the only reason a company drops a product offering or leaves a market segment ? The only answer is profitability. Companies don't just pack up and go home unless they're not able to make money.

If you want to argue that the mid-range was always profitable to Apple, then please prove me wrong.

The mid range tower is gone from Apple's line up for good! consumers don't even go down the mid range tower isles anymore.
 
Why would they design the Shuffle like that then? There's no other reason for it. It's for brand recognition, because the headphones are usually more visible than the device itself, and they want other people on the street to see their headphones when you use their device. If they sounded good, then no complaints, but they're crap.

I'm pretty sure they were quite aware of the fact that if you didn't like their headphones, you wouldn't buy this Shuffle. Otherwise, they would have offered the adapter with the shuffle itself, or as an accessorie at launch.

Hence, they aren't forcing you to do anything. You get to vote with your wallet.

You make it sound as if notebooks are outselling desktops 4:1 or something extreme. http://www.businessinsider.com/2008/12/notebook-pc-sales-outpace-desktops-good-news-for-apple-aapl 38.6 million notebook sales compared to 38.5 million desktop sales. It's not exactly like desktop sales are falling off a cliff. Most of that notebook sales growth comes from netbooks, a market Apple has yet to enter.

Apple's notebook sales might be higher than their desktop sales by a greater margin. But thats not because people prefer notebooks so much as it is that Apple doesn't offer any good desktops to begin with. The iMac is a laptop on a stand with a bigger screen. The Mac mini is too crippled for its own good and can't even begin to compete, spec wise, with PC desktops in the same price range. And the Mac Pro is just an overpriced consumer desktop with a server processor.

Let's also not forget that, again, the PC gaming market is bigger than Apple's entire market. To the PC gaming market, laptops are secondary systems that will never be able to replace high end desktops.

So while the notebook market might be "outpacing" the desktop market, it's due in large part to systems that Apple doesn't even make. And Apple's notebooks only outsell their desktops because they don't offer any desktops worth buying.

I also fail to see how Apple's desktops aren't profitable, considering how weak the hardware is and the insane prices they charge for that weak hardware.

One last thing to consider is the fact that Apple's GPU choices for the current Mac Pro lineup is... well.. pathetic. People who need real rendering power are going to turn away from Apple and towards other desktops.

Oh great, you had to mention mosx. Now he's back :rolleyes:

Fine. Their desktops were profitable because you say so. Don't forget though that Apple has been selling the iMac and Power Mac in tandem for years, and yet the iMac still survives and gets updated in 2009, but the mid-range PowerMac G5 died a slow death back in 2005.

You're saying that Apple killed the product line out of spite or something ? Because if it was profitable, that's the only explanation.
 
You're saying that Apple killed the product line out of spite or something ? Because if it was profitable, that's the only explanation.

Beware the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses (a.k.a. the "false dichotomy" in the 2-hypotheses case). I can think of another: they want to emphasize machines that are seen, for the sake of brand impression. Laptops are taken places, and people see them. The iMacs appear in proud locations in the home, are visible on receptionists desks, and on television. Desktops, especially in the case of PCs, are shamefully tucked away in places that only basement-dwellers go...much fewer opportunities for brand impressions.

I'm not saying that this is the reason. I'm just showing you that if you ever try to reduce things to N hypotheses, an (N+1)th hypothesis is just around the corner.
 
Beware the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses (a.k.a. the "false dichotomy" in the 2-hypotheses case). I can think of another: they want to emphasize machines that are seen, for the sake of brand impression. Laptops are taken places, and people see them. The iMacs appear in proud locations in the home, are visible on receptionists desks, and on television. Desktops, especially in the case of PCs, are shamefully tucked away in places that only basement-dwellers go...much less of an opportunity for a brand impression.

I don't think that would sit well with your shareholders. "Look, we're going to drop this profitable line-up, because it's not "in your face" enough".
 
I don't think that would sit well with your shareholders. "Look, we're going to drop this profitable line-up, because it's not "in your face" enough".

Of course they shouldn't say that... they should design good machines from the get go and they wouldn't have to be hidden.

Apple is not perfect... but one thing they do well is product design and people like to have sexy products in their house. Not to mention OS's that work. :D
 
I don't think that would sit well with your shareholders. "Look, we're going to drop this profitable line-up, because it's not "in your face" enough".

Only if you frame it that clumsily. Instead, pitch it as going for the high-end...the people with disposable income...where the margins are. They'll eat that **** right up and laugh while everybody else races to the bottom.
 
Only if you frame it that clumsily. Instead, pitch it as going for the high-end...the people with disposable income...where the margins are. They'll eat that **** right up and laugh while everybody else races to the bottom.

If their shareholders are in anyway business savvy, they'd say "But look at your sales of the mid-range tower model, that's where most of your desktops sales are, go for the high-end ? Yeah, show me how that would be more profitable that this mid-range thing".

And Aidenshaw, yes, they basically only made high-end available after a while and the only reason I can see for that is that their high-end models were selling better than their mid-range models.

If you're so desperate for an Xmac type product, then start buying a lot of mid-range computers elsewhere. Get the market frenzy going and Apple will look at the segment again.
 
If their shareholders are in anyway business savvy, they'd say "But look at your sales of the mid-range tower model, that's where most of your desktops sales are, go for the high-end ? Yeah, show me how that would be more profitable that this mid-range thing".

I think people shrewd in business value margins more than you realize. If you try to make up for razor-thin margins with volume, you can find yourself in a perilous position that's hard to evade when it hits.
 
I think people shrewd in business value margins more than you realize. If you try to make up for razor-thin margins with volume, you can find yourself in a perilous position that's hard to evade when it hits.

Exactly my point about this whole xMac thing and my profitable comments. Maybe the line-up was on just such a small margin, and the volume of shipping units wasn't making up for R&D/Marketing anymore and they just decided to stick to higher-end configurations, which had better margins that did make up for the lower volume.

In the end, I'm still pretty convinced the only thing that killed the mid-range tower Mac was market forces and anyone denying this better have darn good evidence of shareholder incompetence.
 
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