Microsoft Says New Surface Pro is Faster Than 15" M3 MacBook Air

[Alameda]

Faster?
I can get my work done faster using MacOS compared to Windows. It’s a superior experience. I had to use a Windows laptop on my last job and hated it. I’m starting a new job and Windows is an absolute NO for me.

22 hours of continuous video playback on battery is impressive, but I don’t need to watch movies for 22 hours straight.

 

[noraa]

What's that and why should we care?

MTE stands for Memory Tagging Extension. It's basically a security feature to help limit vulnerabilities when it comes to RAM allocation. MTE can be implemented in software, but it comes with a performance hit; Arm v9 provides this in hardware to limit any performance hit.

There aren't any user facing advantages, but obviously any system to minimize security risks is a boon for all users.

Memory Safety: How Arm Memory Tagging Extension Addresses this Industry-wide Security Challenge

Learn more about Arm's Memory Tagging Extension security feature and how it can be implemented across the Android ecosystem to improve memory safety.

newsroom.arm.com

 

[Melbourne Park]

Apple didn’t steal anything, Apple let Xerox purchase stock at a pre-ipo price in exchange for a look at the technology. Xerox failed to see the potential and let it go.

I spend a few days with the lawyer who incorporated Apple. He and his wife were holidaying in an Australian Island resort where I met them. He incorporated Apple while they were still in the garage. Jobs and Wozniak begged him to at least take some shares. They explained they would be worth a fortune. And they didn't want to pay with cash. But he had left a law partnership in New York to setup his own law firm in Silicon Valley, based on tech start ups. Apple was his first real pay day. He took the $16,000 instead of any shares. I met him at Dunk Island in early November, 1987. That's a holiday island (fab place) a couple of miles off the Australian Coast towards the equator from the Whitsunday Islands. But the resort was destroyed by two cyclones. At the time if he'd take the shares, they'd have been worth back then, 1987, 70 to 80 million he reckoned. Although he had no regrets. But now ... they'd be worth a fair bit more.

 

[Frantisekj]

M4 lacks some key v9 features like MTE.

So they kept something to amaze ppl next year 😂

 

[Abazigal]

So they kept something to amaze ppl next year

Or it’s no big deal and people are just tossing random buzzwords around in a bid to confuse us.

 

[JustAnExpat]

MTE stands for Memory Tagging Extension. It's basically a security feature to help limit vulnerabilities when it comes to RAM allocation. MTE can be implemented in software, but it comes with a performance hit; Arm v9 provides this in hardware to limit any performance hit.

There aren't any user facing advantages, but obviously any system to minimize security risks is a boon for all users.

Memory Safety: How Arm Memory Tagging Extension Addresses this Industry-wide Security Challenge

Learn more about Arm's Memory Tagging Extension security feature and how it can be implemented across the Android ecosystem to improve memory safety.

newsroom.arm.com

I consider it something that's useful, and protects high valued individuals from being attached, but it's not a valid reason to upgrade or change to a different ARM chip. For most users, use good information security practices and they'll stay safe.

 

[mike2q]

Qualcomm still hasn’t caught up with Apple when it comes to the A series of chips, what makes you think they’ll suddenly be able to catch up vs the M series?

I think it's easily possible for Qualcomm to catch up to and pass Apple based on their purchase of Nuvia alone. Nuvia Is a chip design firm started by a number of ex Apple SOC engineers including Apple's former chief SOC architect. The same architect who led the design teams for both the A series and M series chips for over a decade. If Qualcomm employs the team who literally designed the M series chips then it stands to reason that team could at least match their former designs if not surpass them.

 

[Searing]

I think it's easily possible for Qualcomm to catch up to and pass Apple based on their purchase of Nuvia alone. Nuvia Is a chip design firm started by a number of ex Apple SOC engineers including Apple's former chief SOC architect. The same architect who led the design teams for both the A series and M series chips for over a decade. If Qualcomm employs the team who literally designed the M series chips then it stands to reason that team could at least match their former designs if not surpass them.

Qualcomm already caught up and passed Apple by for GPU and MT. Just ST is left to do, and they are close enough.

 

[ric22]

Qualcomm already caught up and passed Apple by for GPU and MT. Just ST is left to do, and they are close enough.

When you say they passed Apple, do you mean Apple's low end tablet class M3, or their high end M3 Max? I don't recall Qualcomm saying they beat the GPU on that...

 

[Abazigal]

I think it's easily possible for Qualcomm to catch up to and pass Apple based on their purchase of Nuvia alone. Nuvia Is a chip design firm started by a number of ex Apple SOC engineers including Apple's former chief SOC architect. The same architect who led the design teams for both the A series and M series chips for over a decade. If Qualcomm employs the team who literally designed the M series chips then it stands to reason that team could at least match their former designs if not surpass them.

I honestly don't think replicating Apple's success is as easy as just hiring a bunch of their ex-employees and throwing a bunch of money at them. There's often a ton of factors that led to their success at Apple as well, from corporate culture, to environment, to how supportive management is of your endeavours overall. I guess time will tell.

 

[Digital Dude]

I love the Surface Pro hardware. Apple just needs to make Mac OS X/Macs touch screen capable. There are already iPad apps in the Mac app store. Just do it already. Yeah starting at 2k at the least probably, but put it out there.

This goes back to when Steve Jobs said no to a stylus and Mac touchscreen. They painted themselves into a corner with iPad iOS, and now it’s hard to get out. Anyway, I’m with you and I like the surface pro ‘for business’ over my iPad. 🎨🖌️

 

[Abazigal]

I find it amusing that Microsoft is trying to compare themselves to Apple, when the biggest losers in this scenario would be Intel and AMD. I can understand why they don't want to be seen as burning bridges (Apple seems to be the go-to target everyone claims to want to tear down), but really, I honestly don't see this as posing any threat to Apple at all.

 

[jb310]

The Surface devices will arrive to customers starting on June 18.

I really want to see how fast they are in real-world usage. 👀

And regardless of whether Microsoft or Apple has the faster laptops, I'm just glad they've both moved to ARM processors.

 

[JustAnExpat]

This goes back to when Steve Jobs said no to a stylus and Mac touchscreen. They painted themselves into a corner with iPad iOS, and now it’s hard to get out.

Steve Jobs had no problems changing his mind when the situation needed it. He said the iPod would never play videos. It would later play videos (as a famous example).

 

[noraa]

Qualcomm already caught up and passed Apple by for GPU and MT. Just ST is left to do, and they are close enough.

Compared to what chip? The M3? Because you do know the M4 just came out that is 20%+ faster than the M3. And that’s for the low end of the M series when compared to Qualcomm’s fastest chip.

 

[JustAnExpat]

Compared to what chip? The M3? Because you do know the M4 just came out that is 20%+ faster than the M3. And that’s for the low end of the M series when compared to Qualcomm’s fastest chip.

Another problem is that all of the new Microsoft AI ARM notebooks require a fan. MacBook Airs don't have fans :O. So what's the power draw looking like

 

[Melbourne Park]

The Qualcomm chip is I think 4 nm thick. While the 3nm thick chips are the M3 and upwards processors.

I've read reports that the M4 chips were more production cost based, but that the production rates are still poor, as the M3 chips are reported as also being poor. One can see this with the lesser M3 Max chips, and others, which have different numbers of cores, due to faulty production rates, they can still use the problematic chip by by-passing the faults in the chip, and hence provding less cores.

But I don't think there are production hassles with the 4nm size ... which is what this Qualcomm chip is. Qualcomm seems earlier in the learning curve, and also, despite that, its processor appears to be cheaper than Apple's more mature chips.

I am wondering though about the GPU side. Is it foreseeable that Qualcomm chips could be tied to seperate GPUs, or are they integrated like with Apple's GPUs? Also it seems one can add memory at will to the Qualcomm ... another appealing feature that Apple lacks. And it has an upgradable drive as well. Apple is not upgradable, and also, their costs for drive capacity and memory are extortion IMO.

 

[Melbourne Park]

On the computer side of things, I love the way when I enter a note in my iPhone, the note updates on all my other Apple hardware.

But I do find the OS more and more difficult to operate.

When my wife has an issue with her PC not working properly - such as a lost file, or the printer not working, etc - I go in and fix it. And I find Windows very easy to fix simple things. I find Apple is equivilent in ease of fixing an issue now.

My wife uses her notebook a lot, but its getting old, and a T-3 port doesn't work reliably now. Its a 2018 notebook. My wife loves her iPad Pro 10.5, but its battery is gone. She has it connected most of the time to a lightning cable. Apple won't replace the battery. But when I look at the M4 iPad Pros, the only advantage I see for her, is the better screen. Since Office sucks on the iPad, then I have to get a replacement notebook for her. A Macbook would have worked fine - but there is no touch screen on a Macbook (which she is dependent on because she uses her iPad a lot).

So I am going to buy a PC notebook and due to battery life, a Qualcomm version. I may buy an iPad Pro for her ... but besides the screen, I see no benefit in it compared to her 10.5 version. Which despite being a 2018 model, has 120Hz screen speed. Why hasn't Apple allowed every iPad to run a 120 Hz screen 6 years later that the 10.5 Pro with other iPads?

Apple are so dumb because they captured her with the iPad, which trained her to love a touch screen. But its not there on an Apple notebook. It's great for her though on a PC notebook. And of course, her work environment had Office, which she is dependant on. But the iPad doesn't run Office well. I cannot understand Apple's desperation in refusing to provide a touch screen on any of the notebooks. It's broken my faith in Apple. I'm typing this using an Eizo display from a Mac Pro tower.

I was going to get a Studio Max M4 when they arrive. I've thought about 4TB Ultras and 128 GB of RAM. Or 2 TB if they'll have T-5 for external fast storage. Are they value though? I reckon after buying my wife her new notebook, I will build a quick PC with top draw fans. And the Sketchup I pay lots for each year, runs much better on PCs. Not because of the CAD software though ... its the graphics add ons that Sketchup provides for PCs, that are not available for Mac. They turn a 3D image into a photo realistic image. The more I think about it, the less good Apple is looking long term. I didn't even like the M3 Mac 16" I bought ... it felt clunky, and the storage was too small. The cost of 4TB was offensive to me. The memory a quandary because I had to make up my mind when buying, which is quite unfair IMO.

 

[JustAnExpat]

Apple won't replace the battery.

I checked MacTracker. The iPad Pro, 10.5" introduced in 2017, discontinued in 2019, is still supported. Apple SHOULD replace the battery unless they are out of stock, and if so, they would tell you when to return to get it replaced.

(Source: MacTracker)

 

[Searing]

When you say they passed Apple, do you mean Apple's low end tablet class M3, or their high end M3 Max? I don't recall Qualcomm saying they beat the GPU on that...

What matters is the price of the chip. Qualcomm is competing with the M2 and M3 and M4. Those are Apple's high end laptop chips (in $2000 15" Macbooks). It is not a low end tablet class chip.

This is not hard if you are honest with yourself. I want the best laptop I can buy for <$1500 and don't care about any product that costs more than that. Qualcomm is beating the M3 Pro laptops in some things for $500-$1000 less with the same specs.

The main thing is I can buy 32GB ram and 1TB of storage in a $1500 laptop with ARM finally. Something we wanted Apple to do but they are too interested in ripping off people with 8GB of ram and no storage.

 

[Melbourne Park]

I checked MacTracker. The iPad Pro, 10.5" introduced in 2017, discontinued in 2019, is still supported. Apple SHOULD replace the battery unless they are out of stock, and if so, they would tell you when to return to get it replaced.

(Source: MacTracker)

The facts are too that she had never used a touch pad until using an iPad. Now she wants one for using Office. She is a corporate lawyer who sat on the Board of some major Australian corporations. Including a Bank ranked top 50 in the world.

And Apple refuse to replace the battery. Been to the Genius bar on two occasions, plus numerous complaints via Apple support. As the Apple Genius bar said at the Apple Store in Southland Victoria Australia, "Apple wants you to buy a new iPad rather than replace your battery". They also said the battery was within specification, although third party software for battery testing shows it is not within specification. It lasts less than on hour, she operates it connected to a charger, or with a Charmast external battery plugged into it. And let's face it too - her iPad performs brilliantly for what she wants - except for a failed battery. The lack of 120 Hz fast scrolling is why a lesser model concerns. Otherwise I'd buy the base model. Apple sells only two refurb iPads in Australia from Apple themselves - both mini iPads. So run out iPads are never sold in Australia by Apple. An OLED screen has appeal, but is it worth it for a unit that hasn't had its battery life improve unlike all other Apple products have? And it's a device designed to work off a battery.

 

[SactoGuy18]

Look, in the end the biggest issue for these new laptops is the lack of Windows applications that actually take full advantage of the hardware registers of the Snapdragon X Elite chipset. I wonder does Microsoft off programming tools that will translate x86-64 register calls into X Elite register calls like what Apple's Rosetta code does from X86 to Apple Silicon.

 

[purplerainpurplerain]

Look, in the end the biggest issue for these new laptops is the lack of Windows applications that actually take full advantage of the hardware registers of the Snapdragon X Elite chipset. I wonder does Microsoft off programming tools that will translate x86-64 register calls into X Elite register calls like what Apple's Rosetta code does from X86 to Apple Silicon.

That is an issue but the biggest issue they all have **** designs and run **** Windows. So it won’t make a difference to Apple users or the Apple company.

PC designers are always in this messed up place where they have to compete against so many other PC designs so they try tooo hard to be different instead of simple and clean. That’s why they have cheap keyboards, off center trackpads, cameras in weird places, numeric keyboards that make everything cramped. Etc etc etc.

 

[shadowfrost]

Not gonna lie, the new surface pro is tempting, but given my bad experience with surface pro or 2 in 1 in the past, I am not sure if I am going to like it. I am interested in the stylus, but it is just that there are not many options for journalling app on windows, whereas you have tons on ipad os. And I don’t feel comfortable using one note as my journalling app. I think I still better off sticking to laptop + ipad combo for a while.

 

[Digital Dude]

On the computer side of things, I love the way when I enter a note in my iPhone, the note updates on all my other Apple hardware.

But I do find the OS more and more difficult to operate.

When my wife has an issue with her PC not working properly - such as a lost file, or the printer not working, etc - I go in and fix it. And I find Windows very easy to fix simple things. I find Apple is equivilent in ease of fixing an issue now.

My wife uses her notebook a lot, but its getting old, and a T-3 port doesn't work reliably now. Its a 2018 notebook. My wife loves her iPad Pro 10.5, but its battery is gone. She has it connected most of the time to a lightning cable. Apple won't replace the battery. But when I look at the M4 iPad Pros, the only advantage I see for her, is the better screen. Since Office sucks on the iPad, then I have to get a replacement notebook for her. A Macbook would have worked fine - but there is no touch screen on a Macbook (which she is dependent on because she uses her iPad a lot).

So I am going to buy a PC notebook and due to battery life, a Qualcomm version. I may buy an iPad Pro for her ... but besides the screen, I see no benefit in it compared to her 10.5 version. Which despite being a 2018 model, has 120Hz screen speed. Why hasn't Apple allowed every iPad to run a 120 Hz screen 6 years later that the 10.5 Pro with other iPads?

Apple are so dumb because they captured her with the iPad, which trained her to love a touch screen. But its not there on an Apple notebook. It's great for her though on a PC notebook. And of course, her work environment had Office, which she is dependant on. But the iPad doesn't run Office well. I cannot understand Apple's desperation in refusing to provide a touch screen on any of the notebooks. It's broken my faith in Apple. I'm typing this using an Eizo display from a Mac Pro tower.

I was going to get a Studio Max M4 when they arrive. I've thought about 4TB Ultras and 128 GB of RAM. Or 2 TB if they'll have T-5 for external fast storage. Are they value though? I reckon after buying my wife her new notebook, I will build a quick PC with top draw fans. And the Sketchup I pay lots for each year, runs much better on PCs. Not because of the CAD software though ... its the graphics add ons that Sketchup provides for PCs, that are not available for Mac. They turn a 3D image into a photo realistic image. The more I think about it, the less good Apple is looking long term. I didn't even like the M3 Mac 16" I bought ... it felt clunky, and the storage was too small. The cost of 4TB was offensive to me. The memory a quandary because I had to make up my mind when buying, which is quite unfair IMO.

As a long time tech enthusiast, I have to agree with you. 😖