Microsoft Supports Epic Games, Says Apple Blocking Access to Unreal Engine Would Harm Game Creators

[garylapointe]

30% didn’t kill the App Store model. SaaS did. <- Great article on why 30% is obsolete.

I liked the article but jumping between physical goods and digital goods made for a bit of inconsistency. I pay ebay that much and I still need to wrap it up, pay for postage, and ship it.

You don't magically get free shipping since you sell at Amazon, you're still paying the same to ship it.

And these widgets seem to have no cost to produce more (unlike digital services).

Amazon seems to have the scam for selling digital books! 30% and has to be $2.99-$9.99 or else it's 65%!!! Plus, 15 cents a MB!!! No nice images on the cover of that book or an artist's mugshot! Apple is a BARGAIN compared to this.

It doesn't matter if I can put the app on my own web site and sell it and keep 99% of the profit, most people are never going to see it. If I sell 1.5 the number of copies because I'm on Apple's store, I'd make more than selling it on my own and I don't need to run my own site (or pay someone to run my site), I don't need to take charge card transactions or anything. I'm obviously talking a desktop app, since you can't sell an actual app on iOS unless you jump through their hoops. Unless I have something incredibly obscure, I think I'd sell way more than 1.5 copies on Apple's store vs. my own site (and I used to be pretty good at getting my websites decent in the rankings, back when I did that stuff).

Web apps:
My bank, college, credit card company, all pay to have apps created, they don't make a cent on them, but in this day and age they're expected to have them. Actually, they probably save money on staff/support, but they don't charge the user for anything. Plus, the bank lets me deposit checks into the app (which I'd gladly pay to do) so I'm sure they're saving money in the long run. The apps all run smoother than the web sites for the same company, I don't want the web interface to perform these services.

 

[AxiomaticRubric]

Fortnite creator Epic Games has argued that Apple's plan to terminate its Developer Program membership would be "overbroad retaliation" and "an unlawful effort to maintain its monopoly and chill any action by others who might dare oppose Apple.


Again.... WHAT MONOPOLY???

Microsoft has the majority of the PC market. Google has the majority of the mobile market.

Apple platforms are also a minority in the video game industry.

 

[cmaier]

As far as I know ... Apple doesn't differentiate in the nature of goods that are sold by a developer's application.

Yes they do. It’s right on their website.

It’s also stated quite clearly in the developer’s guidelines.

I hope you learn to be nicer when disagreeing about things when you haven’t made the effort to get the facts.

 

[Seanz]

retracted

 

[ToqQrrl]

Yes they do. It’s right on their website.

View attachment 946990

As I said earlier to another gentleman ... I stand corrected and was given the appropriate sections of the rules in the Apple developer documentation.

 

[ouimetnick]

Do you mean Epic should release a physical platform?

I think you know what I mean. Epic should host their own app on their own servers (or pay a 3rd party to host it for them like AWS, Microsoft, etc) and Apple should allow users to download it via Safari or smoother method.

On Windows 10S, you can only install apps from Microsoft App Store.

The console analogy is actually quite apt, as both presents a similar walled garden.

I see your point, but this is about personal computer devices, NOT game consoles. That being said, I disagree with Microsoft's stance with Windows 10S, but as long as you can use regular Windows and install 3rd party apps w/o the MS App Store, all if well. And you should be able to develop for a game console and distribute your game w/o Sony or Microsoft getting a cut, but often times the consoles are sold at or below cost and games cover the development costs of the console and production costs. Apple makes a hefty profit on each iOS device sold and they also make money with Apple Music, TV+, iCloud, etc, so it's a bit different where game console manufactures rely on games to cover the R&D and manufacturing.. Although they should still allow an option!

Microsoft had a phone before, and it was about as locked down as iOS.

That doesn't make it right!

 

[Seanz]

I don't need iCloud to sell Fortnite or Kindle either.

.... Some people.....

I was giving a generalised example. And no you don't need apple services to sell Fortnite or Kindle, because neither sell anything currently sell anything on any Apple platform, They sell outside the app store on their platforms etc. The V-bucks option that Epic was offering did attract a fee because that's how it has always worked; It is what they signed a contract on, which they then violated.

 

[MyopicPaideia]

Shouldn’t it be the other way around? Shouldn’t the court order Epic to comply with the rules they agreed to until the court can decide whether they are unlawful or not??? This seems all backwards??

 

[farewelwilliams]

I understand Epic as 2 Apps, Fortnite and the Unreal Engine and they do not want to resubmit Fortnite for approval so Apple punish them by removing the developer account.

While i understand why Apple removed Fortnite can someone explain to me what it is in the developer agreement that force a developer to submit an App if he does not wish to make it available anymore ?

My understanding is that the app with the violations is still live on people’s devices. Apple wants Epic to update the app to remove the violation since the game is still live.

Apple does have a nuke button to force remove the app from all people’s phones but they want Epic to fix it otherwise it’s another PR cycle.

 

[KENPHOTO]

Well, good your feelings has no weight at court, judges around the world will decide, and I’m confident that Apple will face plant. \o/

yeah, okay, I guess we will soo who is right soon enough. I can guarantee you that Epics request for a temporary injunction will be no approved on Monday at Court.

 

[NotTooLate]

Its really nice hearing that MS thinks that blocking unreal engine hurts developers , while they are blocking anyone from using their DX technology , which hurts developers MUCH more as they cannot write once distribute to all as MS are the biggest customer AND has the propriety tech needed to write games too.
If you had DX as an open or even licensed standard , both Linux and MacOS would have gotten ALL the games on PC on day 1 , the fact that MacOS lags in gaming so much is because of this very reason , MS is THE monopoly of computer gaming and they are not even trying to change.

 

[KENPHOTO]

Apple should allow side loading of applications. Those who want to use the App Store can and those who don't won't be forced to. A win-win for everyone except Apple.

IF consumers want to side load apps, they have a choice to go purchase and Android phone. No one put a gun to anyones head and forced them to purchase an iOS device.

 

[KENPHOTO]

In that case, no, because there's hundreds (thousands?) of banks out there offering car loans and credit cards. It doesn't matter which one you get - most every bank is issuing VISA and MasterCard, so regardless of which one you get, you can do the same things with it.

If there were competing App Stores on iOS that a developer could distribute through, then yes, Apple could argue like you. As it is though, no, there aren't, because Apple is operating a monopoly.

Maybe you should look up the legal definition of a monopoly first before commenting. Developers have many different platforms for which they can develop apps. If they don't like Apple's terms of service, they can code for MacOS, Windows, Xbox, Android, Playstation, Nintendo Switch, and others....

 

[KENPHOTO]

Apple's practices are not monopolistic. What's the monopoly? When you walk into the Apple store, should Dell be able to say "we want to use that table to sell our products?" or Ford be able to sell parts for Jeeps and claim a right to have them covered under the Jeep warranty? There are competing platforms. If one wants to sell into a platform one follows the rules for that platform. That is not monopoly, it is free market competition.

exactly, so many people on these forums have no idea what the definition of a monopoly actually is. Apple has never had a monopoly on any product or service it has ever created. They have never had majority marketshare in anything.

 

[KENPHOTO]

The thing that people do not seem to realize in this whole thing is that the point of this "movement" is to show that Apple is being unfair to developers as of now ...

Not for the 30% vs 15% ... not because this guy is smaller or bigger than this other guy ...

Apple says ... developers abide by the same rules ... fine ... if that is true than why are there companies like the ones I’ll name below able to use their own stores (bypassing the 30% or 15% commission to Apple) to sell their products and bypassing the apple built-in store ?

It’s funny because the companies I’m going to name below all benefit from the same services provided by Apple to all the other developers on the apple store ... advertising, marketing reports, iCloud infrastructure and what ever else Apple provides.

Uber --> Pays 0% to Apple while operating their own store on iOS
Lyft --> Pays 0% to Apple while operating their own store on iOS
Target --> Pays 0% to Apple while operating their own store on iOS
Walmart --> Pays 0% to Apple while operating their own store on iOS
Burger King --> Pays 0% to Apple while operating their own store on iOS
McDonald's --> Pays 0% to Apple while operating their own store on iOS
Amazon --> Pays 0% to Apple while operating their own store on iOS

Must i name them all ... I hope Epic uses these examples to show that Apple decides who can bypass their commission strategy and who can not.

Like I said earlier ... all these companies benefit from Apple technologies to be on Apple's iOS Store ... so why wouldn’t they be required to also pay the 15% or 30 % cut to Apple ?

no offence, but you are comparing apps (not app stores, which is what Epic wants to do on iOS) that sell physical goods with apps that sell Digital goods. Amazon does not pay 0% commission to Apple for their Prime streaming service, which is a digital good not a physical good. Even Uber is offering a physical service, ie a vehicle physically comes to your house and picks you up. This is entirely different that Epic having to pay commission on a 12 year old kid buying a "skin" to put on their fortnight character.

 

[smetvid]

Apple has to lose this. The conditions are daylight robbery. I find the epic promo video amazingly valid.
Back then Apple opposed MS as being the bully and now it is the same but Apple is the bully.
Hahahaha, how things change.

How is this daylight robbery? Unless you are a developer why the heck do you even care?

You are aware that Epic does the exact same thing in Fortnite? Developers have to use their platform and their payment system to sell game assets like weapons in Fortnite. The percentage is lower than 30% but it is still the exact same walled garden concept just like every other platform/device out there like the Nintendo store, Sony Playstation store and so forth.

This is the normal way a digital marketplace works.

Apple will not lose this because there is nothing to lose. They are breaking no law or any legal agreement. Epic on the other hand blatantly violated the developer agreement they agreed to and signed with Apple. A similar agreement they would sign with anybody else.

Apple in no way shape or form is a bully here. They allow any competitor to have apps on the App Store like Goole or Microsoft. There are no restrictions and for the most part developers can do whatever they want within the rules that apply to everybody. Yes Apple makes a profit on this system and yes they make a huge profit off of Epic bu then so does Epic. They profit off the user base that Apple created. They profit off the platform, customer base, and marketplace Apple created and without that Epic would be making 0% right now.

The greedy one here is Epic because they agreed to the 30% fee and when they suddenly decided they wanted to make more profit they said say screw you to Apple and violated the rules and agreement.

I am a developer and I work for a company with lots of developers and none of us have an issue with this system at all. Developers that struggled for years to make money trying to market, sell and distribute their apps on their own have finally found success thanks to the App Store.

Epic is making a big deal out of a non issue because they want more money.

 

[makitango]

There is no reason to threaten to terminate their developer account now that Fortnite is gone.

 

[SDJim]

All these people seem to be realizing just how much they depend on Apple. What’s that phrase? Ah yes...
DON’T BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS

 

[Shirasaki]

Wonder which company would follow the suite against apple’s 30% App Store fee policy.

As for “support”, Apple needs no support. They are way too big to fail. After all of these lawsuits, arguments etc, Apple will walk out just fine, shrug off the scares and bruises and move on to a new journey to be the world’s only company valuing $100T, more than all countries GDP on Earth combined. /s

 

[smetvid]

And here lies the problem. Surely, 30% is not much when you are small and this is taken care of but when it gets out small and suddenly you pay millions I'm sure you wouldn't be ok with it.

I would rather Apple introduces tresholds or reduce the fees overall.
The App store is massively profitable for Apple and the profit they make from running just App store is something any other company could dream about. And thats essentially without any hard work.

30% is just too much especially when you grow. I'm with Epic on this one.

Apple is holding monopoly pretty much and it behaves like monopoly. Time for change.

Lets reverse that. There is no way Apple would be happy to pay someone 30% of their profit and you can bet that if Apple was in Epic shoes that would squeeze the other side until they would get better deal. Apple does this with everyone and yet they act like 'victims' here.

Nah, Apple would never allow this if it was the other way around so its time that Apple gets Apple treatment.

Monopoly is almost always never good.

30% is still 30%. No matter if an app earns $100 or $1,000,000. A company is still making 70% more than they did before. Yes 30% of $1,000,000 is more money but it is never about the amount but about the percentage. An equal ratio of payment and profit to what every developer experiences.

Its like taxes and basically Epic wants to be the tax evader kind of company that thinks they shouldn't have to pay taxes. So what if they are larger? A percentage is a percentage for a reason. It is actually unfair to say a larger company should get to pay less percentage in taxes just because they are cool. What you want is equal to ridiculous tax breaks and what Epic wants is to scam the system by moving all their transactions to an offshore bank account all while benefitting off the infrastructure.

Do you even know what monopoly means? Apple never restricts anybody from having as many apps as they want. Even Google and Microsoft can have whatever apps they want. There is absolutely nothing even close to a monopoly here. Its a platform and service.

 

[cpfoto2005]

Lol I'm sure Microsoft will be singing a different tune when Epic decides to offer an alternate payment method and/or store on Xbox.

I wouldn’t be surprised if this is really just Epic’s first step in trying to get a store of its own on all platforms. Start with a platform that isn’t your biggest money maker, get the courts to rule in your favor and then use that precedent to go after the big fish.

 

[cmaus]

Ah, look who's at it again.
Surprised, anyone? Microsoft just can't resist breaking other's rules.

 

[Macropanda]

Not sure if im being dumb here.... If Epic games lose their account, how does a single other game developer lose access to anything at all like unreal engine?

 

[ArPe]

Misleading title. Microsoft isn’t supporting Tim Swiney’s wish that iOS could be turned into an open platform full of piracy, CCP spyware, malware and unknown app developers who run away with your money.

 

[Realityck]

Misleading title. Microsoft isn’t supporting Tim Swiney’s wish that iOS could be turned into an open platform full of piracy, CCP spyware, malware and unknown app developers who run away with your money.

Pretty close
"Today we filed a statement in support of Epic's request to keep access to the Apple SDK for its Unreal Engine. Ensuring that Epic has access to the latest Apple technology is the right thing for gamer developers & gamers"