Microsoft Supports Epic Games, Says Apple Blocking Access to Unreal Engine Would Harm Game Creators

[Ramchi]

Epic winning or losing becomes secondary. Now the trend is being set to fight the mighty like the movement in 90s against Microsoft. People typically skilful, creative and motivated (beyond just money) are generally rebellious in nature and this can provide perfect platform for the anti Apple camp to polarise and milk the maximum. And it is inevitable considering how Apple is growing in terms of valuation. Today, anyone opposing Apple is seen as Heros and not those who side with Apple. For many this identity gives them the right massage to their egos....but Apple ain’t no angel either! Certainly this will NOT be a fight between good vs bad, so enjoy the fight with a ba of popcorn!!

 

[Janichsan]

By having its Developer Program membership terminated, Epic Games would not only lose its ability to develop Fortnite for iOS, but also its popular game engine Unreal Engine for iOS and macOS, which thousands of developers rely on for their games.

Nonsense!

Apple's developers tools are freely available to everyone, free of charge and without the necessity of a developer account, and it's perfectly possible for anyone without a developer account to create and distribute software for macOS.

What Epic no longer would be able to do is:

• Code-sign and/or notarise the UDK: These are recommended, but not really necessary steps. Any application not signed and notarised can still be run, but require an extra (simple) step.
• Get access to the new Developement Transition Kit: That would delay development of an Arm-native version of the UE until Epic could get an Arm-based Mac on the free market.
• Get developer betas of Apple’s operating systems: Again, this would delay adaptation of the UE to new version of the operating systems and bug reports wouldn’t be treated with priority. There still are public betas, though, which are released with a slower cadence.
• Get support from Apple: Apple’s developers no longer would help Epic’s people with tips and/or fixes for optimisation.
• Use specific macOS/iOS technologies like MusicKit, HomeKit, CloudKit, etc., which for the most part are not integral or necessary for the UE.

Apple blocking Epic’s developer’s accounts would make development of the UE more difficult, but not impossible.

Third-party developers using the UE could still use it, still release games made with it, and still use all the features and services Epic themselves are blocked from using, as they would require their own developer account anyway.

Imagine them being free to charge children without the parental controls of the platform?

Dingdingding! We got a winner here!

... 2) adding V Bucks to your account via a desktop browser, Xbox, etc IS cheaper ....

Buying V bucks directly from Epic of course doesn't require them to share their revenue with anyone. And the prices on Xbox, PS4, and Switch aren't lower because Epic does not have to share their revenue there (quite contrary), it's because they actively lowered the prices and decided they can put up with the reduced profits. This is a publicity trick, nothing else.

Being all greedy is not sexy.

Absolutely. Same goes for Epic, though.

 

[cyberstudio]

Epic's move has been thoroughly thought through beforehand. Apple would have only one possible response and that was to kick Epic out. Apple had no other option because it cannot afford anyone else following Epic's example. Epic's timing is carefully calibrated to be right after Tim Cook appeared in the anti-trust hearing. Long story short, Epic painted Apple into a corner. Epic could do a lot of things: sue, or back down and remove its own payment system and maintain its membership, or stay put and get kicked out. No matter what it does, it is going to win the sympathy of the public and Apple being passive here is portrayed as the monopoly.

 

[gnasher729]

Just looking at the number of List of Unreal Engine games on Wikipedia is impressive. This case impacting all those developers working with Unreal Engine 4 is disturbing. Microsoft even has a Unreal Engine 5 title listed.

It doesn't affect developers using Unreal Engine, unless Epic decides so. And as long as these developers don't cheat in their app review submissions obviously.

 

[gnasher729]

Apple are the ones willing to harm software developers who licence Epic's Unreal Engine (such as Microsoft) as leverage in a legal battle over IAPs in the Fortnite app.

That is just nonsense. So Epic does two things: Develop a games engine and develop games. The "develop games" part has messed up. If they can't keep their "develop games engine" part separate, that is just bad management.

 

[gnasher729]

I'm not a supporter of government interference with private business but I definitely think anti-trust action is warranted against Apple. They're abusing what is, IMO, a monopoly. Time to put some restraints on Apple.

What monopoly? In the smartphone market? Tell Google that Apple has a monopoly in the smartphone market, and they will laugh at you.

 

[HacKage]

So MS should let me install games from another store on my Xbox and also Playstation.

When I buy an Xbox Gold account or a game from a 3rd party like CDKeys at a much reduced price compared to the Microsoft Store, is that not exactly what you describe?

 

[gnasher729]

Well then, Apple thinks it's fair so therefore it must be fair...right? The problem is fair or not is not exclusively defined by Apple. Epic doesn't seem to feel it's fair. Who's right?

Doesn't matter who is right. Apple thinks it's fair and offers a deal that they think is fair. If Epic doesn't think it's fair, they have two choices: Accept an unfair deal, or not accept a deal. Same if Epic offered Apple to pay only 10% instead of 30%, Apple would have the choice of accepting what they think is an unfair deal, or not accepting it.

As it is, Apple doesn't accept any other deal. So either Epic accepts it, or there is no deal. No deal, no Fortnite on the App Store. Simple as that.

 

[Smigit]

you can? There is the EA Store and what not on my XBox One as we speak

EA Access isn’t an App Store, it’s a subscription service that allows access to titles which Microsoft have distributed via the live store following MS approval for the listing. EA Access was also made available after approval from MS, and MS likely takes a cut. It’s basically an alternative option to access existing Xbox content where instead of paying on a per app basis, you pay a monthly or annual fee for content tied to a single publisher.

It’s nothing like how a seperate store would work. It’s closer to Game Pass than the Xbox store, but MS still has control of content ultimately.

 

[gnasher729]

In my opinion canceling the developers membership is abusive and Apple deserves to lose. Pulling the offending game is one thing, taking retaliatory actions is another. I am surprised their anti-trust counsel would permit this to go forward. It’s stupid and makes them look terrible.

In my opinion, cancelling the developers membership when the developer is clearly unwilling to follow the rules of that membership is absolutely correct. There are two sides to this membership, Apple and developer. The developer refuses to follow their side of the contract.

 

[Janichsan]

When I buy an Xbox Gold account or a game from a 3rd party like CDKeys at a much reduced price compared to the Microsoft Store, is that not exactly what you describe?

The Xbox Gold account is a Microsoft product, so MS gets the money anyway.

I don't know for sure how this would work with game keys, but keep in mind that console manufacturers usually already take considerable amounts of money if you want to develop for their platforms.

 

[gnasher729]

The thing that people do not seem to realize in this whole thing is that the point of this "movement" is to show that Apple is being unfair to developers as of now ...

Not for the 30% vs 15% ... not because this guy is smaller or bigger than this other guy ...

Apple says ... developers abide by the same rules ... fine ... if that is true than why are there companies like the ones I’ll name below able to use their own stores (bypassing the 30% or 15% commission to Apple) to sell their products and bypassing the apple built-in store ?

It’s funny because the companies I’m going to name below all benefit from the same services provided by Apple to all the other developers on the apple store ... advertising, marketing reports, iCloud infrastructure and what ever else Apple provides.

Uber --> Pays 0% to Apple while operating their own store on iOS
Lyft --> Pays 0% to Apple while operating their own store on iOS
Target --> Pays 0% to Apple while operating their own store on iOS
Walmart --> Pays 0% to Apple while operating their own store on iOS
Burger King --> Pays 0% to Apple while operating their own store on iOS
McDonald's --> Pays 0% to Apple while operating their own store on iOS
Amazon --> Pays 0% to Apple while operating their own store on iOS

Must i name them all ... I hope Epic uses these examples to show that Apple decides who can bypass their commission strategy and who can not.

Like I said earlier ... all these companies benefit from Apple technologies to be on Apple's iOS Store ... so why wouldn’t they be required to also pay the 15% or 30 % cut to Apple ?

A long post...

The developer agreement, signed for example by Epic and Uber, says exactly which purchases have to go through the App Store and which ones must not. What goes through the App Store are purchases that are initiated on your phone, and end up just on your phone. When you purchase a ride with Uber, that doesn't end up on your phone, it results in you travelling from A to B. Epic can sell physical fortnite memorabilia, they would _not_ end up on the phone, and therefore would not be allowed to go through the App Store.

And of course purchases made outside your phone don't go through the AppStore. That's what Netflix does. So these companies are not bypassing anything. There is one developer contract, that you accept to publish apps on the App Store, and the contract is the same for everyone.

 

[gnasher729]

Has anyone actually quantified what a “fair” rate would be?

There is no need to, because it doesn't matter. Apple offers a developer contract. You can accept it, you can reject it, you can make a counter offer, as with any contract. We know Apple won't accept a counter offer, so you accept it or reject it. Epic signed that contract at about the time they started developing Fortnite for iOS. They knew what they signed. If they didn't like it, they should have not signed the contract, and not developed Fortnite for iOS.

 

[nickgovier]

.

 

[gnasher729]

Epic winning or losing becomes secondary. Now the trend is being set to fight the mighty like the movement in 90s against Microsoft.

Tencent, 40% owner of Epic, is a Chinese company valued at about 750 billion dollars. Epic makes its money by exploiting impressionable kids to pay for digital tat. More than video games used to cost, a lot more. So it's a huge company, whose business model is based on exploitation, fighting another company.

You're right, Apple dragging third party developers using Unreal Engine into a legal fight over the Fortnite app is indeed nonsense.

You are intentionally misquoting me. Nothing you were quoting here is anything I have side, quite the opposite.

 

[CthuluLemon]

Pile on, Pile on. I hope Apple has an alternative revenue source to make up for the inevitable App Store losses. Oh wait, Tim Cook is in charge, there's no way. King of putting every apple in one basket.

 

[CthuluLemon]

I'm going to leave this quote here:

"We're now in a time where indie developers can flourish on the App Store and Steam and all these distribution mechanisms that can enable a small developer to succeed" -Tim Sweeney

40 seconds in:

Wow, a video from 8 years ago. Absolutely nothing has changed since 2012, just ask President Tru... oh right, everything's changed.

Apple fanboys, always good for a laugh!
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Lol I'm sure Microsoft will be singing a different tune when Epic decides to offer an alternate payment method and/or store on Xbox.

Lol I'm sure they won't

 

[BulkSlash]

I think the simplest argument to anyone who says Epic is standing up for the little guy is to ask what they think would happen if Apple now offered Epic a better deal. Epic would drop their suit and be laughing all the way to the bank. Epic don’t care about smaller developers, they’re just weaponising them like they are impressionable young Fortnite players to try and force Apple to give them a better deal.

 

[CthuluLemon]

I think the simplest argument to anyone who says Epic is standing up for the little guy is to ask what they think would happen if Apple now offered Epic a better deal. Epic would drop their suit and be laughing all the way to the bank. Epic don’t care about smaller developers, they’re just weaponising them like they are impressionable young Fortnite players to try and force Apple to give them a better deal.

So, you're argument is that we should all just give up and let the big guys make deals and win? I'll support any company that fights monopolies, and if they turn, I'll turn on them in return.

Apple fanatics, always good for a laugh.

 

[MuTron]

I'd support the idea of Apple (officially) allowing and enabling iOS devices to sideload apps. Just as long as Apple, and those customers, both agree that sideloading outside the App Store offers them ZERO protection typically attributed to the walled garden of the App Store. So if they get malware, trojans, COVID-21 or syphilis while sideloading apps, the Courts must agree that Apple is never held liable, and the customers are SOL.

Let's do it!

This would be a terrible idea for Apple, however.

A big appeal of iOS devices in the consumer market is that it is incredibly difficult to sideload apps. More importantly, its why iOS devices are by far the dominant presence in corporate and governmental devices. Corporates feel more comfortable rolling out iPhones and iPads to staff mainly because they know full well that the users can't sideload apps and potentially open up confidential data.

Apple are far more concerned about keeping these people on board than they are keeping hobbyists and hackers, who are better served by Android devices.

 

[CthuluLemon]

This would be a terrible idea for Apple, however.

A big appeal of iOS devices in the consumer market is that it is incredibly difficult to sideload apps. More importantly, its why iOS devices are by far the dominant presence in corporate and governmental devices. Corporates feel more comfortable rolling out iPhones and iPads to staff mainly because they know full well that the users can't sideload apps and potentially open up confidential data.

Apple are far more concerned about keeping these people on board than they are keeping hobbyists and hackers, who are better served by Android devices.

What a load of crock. Every major corp offers there employees to choose an android or iOS phone at a minimum. Keep dreaming buddy. Just because Timmy tells you iOS is more secure, doesn't mean it's anything more than an excuse for why Apple's software is lagging behind.

 

[GaryST]

Surprising that MS would support this given it has the potential to tear down the entire Xbox business model

The enemy of my enemy is my friend

 

[MuTron]

What a load of crock. Every major corp offers there employees to choose an android or iOS phone at a minimum. Keep dreaming buddy. Just because Timmy tells you iOS is more secure, doesn't mean it's anything more than an excuse for why Apple's software is lagging behind.

https://insights.dice.com/2019/01/15/android-ios-dominate-corporate-mobile-device-space/

"Moreover, 54 percent of those CIOs reported giving iOS devices to their employees, while 28 percent supplied Android-based hardware, 14 percent went with the Windows option, and 1 percent gave out BlackBerry phones."

“Apple’s iPhone is the primary BYOD choice for their workforce. One of the CIOs pointed to an ongoing uptick in spending on tablets for both field and corporate employees, for which they have standardized on iPad,” the analysts wrote, according to Yahoo Finance. “While [Apple] has dealt with recent weakness, primarily for iPhone in China & other emerging markets, we are seeing positive trends for the company at the enterprise level.”

Also:

https://9to5mac.com/2018/09/04/ios-dominating-business-use/

 

[CthuluLemon]

Epic winning or losing becomes secondary. Now the trend is being set to fight the mighty like the movement in 90s against Microsoft. People typically skilful, creative and motivated (beyond just money) are generally rebellious in nature and this can provide perfect platform for the anti Apple camp to polarise and milk the maximum. And it is inevitable considering how Apple is growing in terms of valuation. Today, anyone opposing Apple is seen as Heros and not those who side with Apple. For many this identity gives them the right massage to their egos....but Apple ain’t no angel either! Certainly this will be a fight between good vs bad, so enjoy the fight with a ba of popcorn!!

Exactly! Apple can't claim to be the good guy with a $2Trillion market cap. Even if they were the most ethical company in the world, public opinion always favors those perceived as underdogs. You can't be the most valuable company in the world and be an underdog at the same time, so this puts Apple in a real bind.

Tim Cook's leadership has boxed Apple into another corner. He needs App Store revenue to justify his compensation, but App Store revenue is under a mass attack.

This was never a battle intended for the court of law, it was always meant for the court of public opinion. Epic knew it, Apple apparently didn't.

 

[tann]

Apple need to stop this 30% blanket.

Instead the developer fee should be tiered, if you're a one man band, $99/year, giant conglomerate with 100k employees? Much pricier.

Then pay to host the app, charge for the bandwidth used for downloads / updates.

Charge for the overheads of the store (e.g. review costs, development costs etc).

Allow any payment type, and push IAPs as a much better, cleaner and secure way of handling in app payments.

That is how I think it should be. The App stores on both iOS and Google are now absolutely essential to life as we know it and having 2 companies ruling them with whatever TOS' they want is a bit scary.