Microsoft Surface Beats iPad in Design, Productivity, and Accessory Use in New J.D. Power Study

[convergent]

I bought a Surface Pro 4 a week ago, not having seen this thread. I love it. Here is how I got there.

I have been in tech for over 30 years. I started my career at IBM and was a PC guy from when it was first introduced. About 10 years ago, I became very frustrated with Windows and slowly fell in love with Apple. As a semi-pro photographer, it was also where everything was happening. Over the years, my family of 6 became all in with the Apple ecosystem. I used Mac at work and home and all was good.

Then about 5 years ago I had to go back to using Windows for work, but home and photography were still solidly Apple. Around the same time-frame the changing of the "Steve's" happened. First Jobs died... RIP! Then Ballmer finally left Microsoft. Enter Tim at Apple. Apple is now more focussed on building the most expensive headquarters in the world and making political statements than they are innovating. Yet I find myself intertwined in the Apple ecosystem and not happy about it.

Slowly my move from Apple has started. First my Thunderbolt display started having problems so it sets in the closet, replaced by a Dell display. Nothing from Apple. Next my Airport Extremes, Expresses, and Time Capsules... replaced by a much better Netgear Orbi. Nothing from Apple. My latest Mac purchase was a 2012 Mini (my daughters required last gen MacBookPro for Graphics Design at college, not withstanding). I have no interest in the new iPhones... the 6s+ has the jacks I want, and new features are seemingly silly. I had no interest in the new Watch... bought a used 1st gen and do like it. The only thing recent I've bought from Apple and actually think they have added innovation was a new generation Apple TV during the last year.

Last week I made my first trip to the Microsoft store in my life. I came out with a Surface Pro 4 with intentions to replace both my work laptop and my Mac Mini for mobile Lightroom work. So far I am loving this thing. I had 2 iPads in the past and both have been laying on the shelf and not turned on for over a year (why didn't I sell them????). I am drooling about the Surface Studio and really may eventually get one of those for my main photography workstation, after playing with it in the Microsoft store. I did consider an iPad Pro and spent about 6 months going back and forth, but at the end of the day its a bigger version of my phone (running the same consumption apps) and I couldn't see paying $1000 for something that would effectively add only pen based note taking to my work day and require me to haul around another big device. I live in the Office suite all day at work, including Microsoft Project. I heavily use OneNote and had been wanting a way to more easily capture hand written notes... thus the reason for a tablet at all. A colleague bought an iPad Pro and watching her work with it it just didn't seem worth the extra baggage. With the SP4, I am getting it all in one device.

So over the last 5 years I've gone from loving Apple to feeling trapped in an ecosystem that my less tech savvy family members will probably not be able to easily transition out of. I really hope that at some point Apple becomes focussed again on innovation instead of politics and big buildings. I don't see any signs that it will happen as long as Tim is at the helm... sadly. But Apple will continue to do OK because the majority of their customers are not IT folks and like the simplicity of the iPhone. I believe they've already lost the pro market that used to buy only Apple... artists, audio/video techs, etc..

 

[jacjustjac]

I bought a Surface Pro 4 a week ago, not having seen this thread. I love it. Here is how I got there.

I have been in tech for over 30 years. I started my career at IBM and was a PC guy from when it was first introduced. About 10 years ago, I became very frustrated with Windows and slowly fell in love with Apple. As a semi-pro photographer, it was also where everything was happening. Over the years, my family of 6 became all in with the Apple ecosystem. I used Mac at work and home and all was good.

Then about 5 years ago I had to go back to using Windows for work, but home and photography were still solidly Apple. Around the same time-frame the changing of the "Steve's" happened. First Jobs died... RIP! Then Ballmer finally left Microsoft. Enter Tim at Apple. Apple is now more focussed on building the most expensive headquarters in the world and making political statements than they are innovating. Yet I find myself intertwined in the Apple ecosystem and not happy about it.

Slowly my move from Apple has started. First my Thunderbolt display started having problems so it sets in the closet, replaced by a Dell display. Nothing from Apple. Next my Airport Extremes, Expresses, and Time Capsules... replaced by a much better Netgear Orbi. Nothing from Apple. My latest Mac purchase was a 2012 Mini (my daughters required last gen MacBookPro for Graphics Design at college, not withstanding). I have no interest in the new iPhones... the 6s+ has the jacks I want, and new features are seemingly silly. I had no interest in the new Watch... bought a used 1st gen and do like it. The only thing recent I've bought from Apple and actually think they have added innovation was a new generation Apple TV during the last year.

Last week I made my first trip to the Microsoft store in my life. I came out with a Surface Pro 4 with intentions to replace both my work laptop and my Mac Mini for mobile Lightroom work. So far I am loving this thing. I had 2 iPads in the past and both have been laying on the shelf and not turned on for over a year (why didn't I sell them????). I am drooling about the Surface Studio and really may eventually get one of those for my main photography workstation, after playing with it in the Microsoft store. I did consider an iPad Pro and spent about 6 months going back and forth, but at the end of the day its a bigger version of my phone (running the same consumption apps) and I couldn't see paying $1000 for something that would effectively add only pen based note taking to my work day and require me to haul around another big device. I live in the Office suite all day at work, including Microsoft Project. I heavily use OneNote and had been wanting a way to more easily capture hand written notes... thus the reason for a tablet at all. A colleague bought an iPad Pro and watching her work with it it just didn't seem worth the extra baggage. With the SP4, I am getting it all in one device.

So over the last 5 years I've gone from loving Apple to feeling trapped in an ecosystem that my less tech savvy family members will probably not be able to easily transition out of. I really hope that at some point Apple becomes focussed again on innovation instead of politics and big buildings. I don't see any signs that it will happen as long as Tim is at the helm... sadly. But Apple will continue to do OK because the majority of their customers are not IT folks and like the simplicity of the iPhone. I believe they've already lost the pro market that used to buy only Apple... artists, audio/video techs, etc..

Hi, what are your thoughts now?

 

[convergent]

Hi, what are your thoughts now?

I love it, but I returned it within the 30 day period. The reason is that Microsoft announced the new version Tuesday. I am on the fence now about buying the same model I returned (at a discount), or getting the newer one which is a bit more expensive. I'll probably get the new one. I've not bought a launch product in many years. Its a tradeoff between the fun of having the latest and greatest with the pain of hitting any bugs in firmware that weren't worked out. I tend to keep things for a long time. The last computer I bought was a 2012 Mac Mini, and prior to that a 2010 MacBook Air, which I still also use.

The new version has a lot of refinements
- Kaby Lake processors... faster
- Fanless i5
- 50% increase in battery life
- Much improved pen (less latency than Apple pencil)
- Improved keyboard cover/trackpad
- Better hinge with studio mode... flatter tilt than before
- Less sharp edges... fixes one of my complaints about it

A lot like an iPhone "s" model with overall refinement and a lot of little stuff. The battery life improvement is the biggy.

 

[Uofmtiger]

Personally, having owned an iPad, it is an expensive media consumption larger iPhone. It is the best media consumption laptop, but not value for money (whether you can afford it or not).

For productivity, SP is better, but I am not happy with the current iteration due to battery life.

Really looking forward to the SP5, or maybe even the next Surface Book - unless Apple manages to really pull off something nice with MacOS/iOS (which since 2015 have just been a buggy mess for me, compared to pre-2015).

"Value for the money" depends on the user. I have Macs, Windows laptops, iPads, and an iPhone. It I broke down the cost per hour of actual use, it would be second to only the iPhone. I have an iPhone Plus, but I still prefer the iPad for when I am lounging around the house. I only go to laptops or desktops when I want to use Lightroom, Photoshop, Final Cut, or just want a larger screen for the task at hand. I much prefer the form factor of the iPad to anything else on the market for what I like to do in my leisure time.

I thought about getting a Surface to get pen input on Photoshop, but it just doesn't make financial sense. I have a Toshiba convertible laptop that barely gets used. I just don't think Windows is nearly as good as the iPad for touch because of the lack of apps built around touch. I really don't know if we will ever get to the point where Windows is a better tablet interface than iOS.

Being a big iPhone is a compliment that many use as a negative. Taking the most popular consumer device in history and making it available with a larger screen that makes it a better experience for editing photos, watching video, reading magazines, comics, etc. etc. makes it a joy to use. The main issue for the iPad is that there is little reason to update from the Air unless you need Pencil input for one reason or another. If they could get Adobe to supply a pencil input app for Photoshop, a lot more people would buy a "pro" version.

 

[convergent]

"Value for the money" depends on the user. I have Macs, Windows laptops, iPads, and an iPhone. It I broke down the cost per hour of actual use, it would be second to only the iPhone. I have an iPhone Plus, but I still prefer the iPad for when I am lounging around the house. I only go to laptops or desktops when I want to use Lightroom, Photoshop, Final Cut, or just want a larger screen for the task at hand. I much prefer the form factor of the iPad to anything else on the market for what I like to do in my leisure time.

I thought about getting a Surface to get pen input on Photoshop, but it just doesn't make financial sense. I have a Toshiba convertible laptop that barely gets used. I just don't think Windows is nearly as good as the iPad for touch because of the lack of apps built around touch. I really don't know if we will ever get to the point where Windows is a better tablet interface than iOS.

Being a big iPhone is a compliment that many use as a negative. Taking the most popular consumer device in history and making it available with a larger screen that makes it a better experience for editing photos, watching video, reading magazines, comics, etc. etc. makes it a joy to use. The main issue for the iPad is that there is little reason to update from the Air unless you need Pencil input for one reason or another. If they could get Adobe to supply a pencil input app for Photoshop, a lot more people would buy a "pro" version.

Windows doesn't need to be a better tablet interface than iOS. And iOS doesn't need to be a better full OS than Windows. Apple took their phone OS and put it on a tablet. That is what iOS is. Microsoft took their full function OS and put it on a tablet/laptop hybrid. Two completely different approaches.

 

[Uofmtiger]

Windows doesn't need to be a better tablet interface than iOS. And iOS doesn't need to be a better full OS than Windows. Apple took their phone OS and put it on a tablet. That is what iOS is. Microsoft took their full function OS and put it on a tablet/laptop hybrid. Two completely different approaches.

I never said they weren't.

What I said is that iOS is better for tablets and touch. They are different approaches, but I prefer Apple's approach of having an OS built around touch as opposed to a hybrid that isn't as good at being a laptop as a clamshell design and not as good at being a tablet due to the OS. YMMV

 

[jacjustjac]

I love it, but I returned it within the 30 day period. The reason is that Microsoft announced the new version Tuesday. I am on the fence now about buying the same model I returned (at a discount), or getting the newer one which is a bit more expensive. I'll probably get the new one. I've not bought a launch product in many years. Its a tradeoff between the fun of having the latest and greatest with the pain of hitting any bugs in firmware that weren't worked out. I tend to keep things for a long time. The last computer I bought was a 2012 Mac Mini, and prior to that a 2010 MacBook Air, which I still also use.

The new version has a lot of refinements
- Kaby Lake processors... faster
- Fanless i5
- 50% increase in battery life
- Much improved pen (less latency than Apple pencil)
- Improved keyboard cover/trackpad
- Better hinge with studio mode... flatter tilt than before
- Less sharp edges... fixes one of my complaints about it

A lot like an iPhone "s" model with overall refinement and a lot of little stuff. The battery life improvement is the biggy.

I was in the same boat in January. I bought a Surface Pro 4 to see if I could manage with it. They had a really good holiday discount for students and I wanted an ultraportable laptop/tablet combo with a good pen for taking notes in class. However, the minimum pressure needed for the Surface Pro 4 Pen to activate was just too much for the way I write (I see it's an issue that has since been improved upon on the new Pro). I also disliked the awkwardness of using the keyboard/stand on my lap or other uneven environments. I returned it thinking maybe someday I could afford the Surface Book, or a future version with a lighter design.

But what I ultimately ended up doing was finding a deal on a Grade-B 2013 11" MacBook Air (Haswell, and still great battery life) for under $450 with a three year warranty from Tanga.com. Then I found a refurbished 9.7" iPad Pro with cellular for another $450 (brand new screen and battery) on All4Cellular, a reputable eBay dealer. Now with a Logitech Pro Create Keyboard and an Apple Pencil I got with a friend's employee discount, I have the best of both worlds. In fact, the keyboard on the Logitech Smart Keyboard is in many ways better than the MacBook Air's, and I'm often leaving the Air at home when I don't need the advantage of a full file system. (My major is Computer Science but I have a lot of other classes, like Calculus and Linear Algebra, or History, where I just love to write on my iPad in lieu of paper.)

I hope you find your happy match! For me, I tried leaving Apple three times last year, with the Nexus 5X, the Note 7, and the Surface Pro 4, and the ease of Handoff and iMessage were just too much to give up.

 

[mistasopz]

It's like I said - the people moaning about the lack of legacy PC features are the minority here. They just don't know it yet.

I find it amusing to read your post now and then read that Apple has introduced a file management system into iOS 11 now. I guess file management is still part of the future.

 

[ValO]

I find it amusing to read your post now and then read that Apple has introduced a file management system into iOS 11 now. I guess file management is still part of the future.

Yes, but a simple , sandboxed and one that is easy to use , limited in use, and can integrate with cloudservices. Quite different than on a pc. I think they nailed it. Flexibility without too much hassle , etc.

 

[jamesrick80]

Once again the surface pro still beats apples latest iPad Pros in both overall design, productivity, and true function.

 

[I7guy]

IOS 11 is a major update for the ipads and a reason to get the new ipad over a surface. The videos here on MR for the new ipad nicely highlight the new features.

Battery life is horrendous on my sp4 and for the most part, it's used plugged in. The form factor of the sp4 is great(and the only reason I bought on) and there are some nice innovations with magnets and the kickstand, but in the end the sp4 is a smallish, bad battery life tablet size computer that happens to run windows.

 

[convergent]

IOS 11 is a major update for the ipads and a reason to get the new ipad over a surface. The videos here on MR for the new ipad nicely highlight the new features.

Battery life is horrendous on my sp4 and for the most part, it's used plugged in. The form factor of the sp4 is great(and the only reason I bought on) and there are some nice innovations with magnets and the kickstand, but in the end the sp4 is a smallish, bad battery life tablet size computer that happens to run windows.

Battery life was what it was when the satisfaction survey was done, so clearly there are opposing points of view. To say that the SP4 has to be used plugged in is ridiculous. But if you are going to introduce IOS 11 into this, then you need to compare it to the latest Surface Pro which has much better battery life.

I watched the whole Apple announcement and think its cool that they've added file management and drag-n-drop to iOS. That's a welcome edition. But if you think that will solve the problem of why someone would buy a Surface Pro over an iPad for pro use, you are mistaken. It will make life easier for people that could already use the iPad, but I doubt it will bring many more over the hump. The reason is that its still a very gimped down environment... trying to make a phone OS work on a tablet. Microsoft has gone the other way and trying to make a desktop OS work on a tablet. Some prefer one, some prefer the other.

Personally, if I'm going to haul something around the size of either iPad Pro or Surface Pro, I don't want to also have to carry around a laptop. For many reasons, the iPad can't replace my laptop. It can't run many of the applications I need to use, and the ones it can run will cause my productivity to be greatly reduced because of the limitations in the iOS version. Apple is insistent that you will carry a laptop and a tablet if you want to be able to use both.

 

[I7guy]

Battery life was what it was when the satisfaction survey was done, so clearly there are opposing points of view. To say that the SP4 has to be used plugged in is ridiculous. But if you are going to introduce IOS 11 into this, then you need to compare it to the latest Surface Pro which has much better battery life.

I watched the whole Apple announcement and think its cool that they've added file management and drag-n-drop to iOS. That's a welcome edition. But if you think that will solve the problem of why someone would buy a Surface Pro over an iPad for pro use, you are mistaken. It will make life easier for people that could already use the iPad, but I doubt it will bring many more over the hump. The reason is that its still a very gimped down environment... trying to make a phone OS work on a tablet. Microsoft has gone the other way and trying to make a desktop OS work on a tablet. Some prefer one, some prefer the other.

Personally, if I'm going to haul something around the size of either iPad Pro or Surface Pro, I don't want to also have to carry around a laptop. For many reasons, the iPad can't replace my laptop. It can't run many of the applications I need to use, and the ones it can run will cause my productivity to be greatly reduced because of the limitations in the iOS version. Apple is insistent that you will carry a laptop and a tablet if you want to be able to use both.

I don't know what real world battery life is on the new models. I only know what it is on my sp4. The sp5 is new hardware running the same old o/s vs new hardware and "new" o/s.

 

[convergent]

I don't know what real world battery life is on the new models. I only know what it is on my sp4. The sp5 is new hardware running the same old o/s vs new hardware and "new" o/s.

The new SP's "same old O/S" is just as "same" and old as MacOS and iOS is on the Mac. Not sure what that's supposed to mean. Windows 10 is an equally capable OS to MacOS (and way more so than iOS), and you could argue that its more advanced since Microsoft has advanced the integration of mouse/trackpad, touch, pen, and dial into one OS, while Apple continues to leave all of that out of their plans of MacOS and iOS. Further, Microsoft is now releasing updates several times a year (more frequent than Apple in iOS or MacOS) with significant feature enhancements.

Regarding battery life, there are plenty of SP4 owners that find its battery life sufficient, or the SP4 would not have scored higher than the iPad on this survey. Your statement that it is mostly used "plugged in" is simply not true. Further, the battery life of the SP4 is compatible to all the other 2in1 devices of this generation. Kaby Lake is an advance that should yield much better battery life across the 2in1 devices... we'll find out later this week when they are available.

 

[I7guy]

The new SP's "same old O/S" is just as "same" and old as MacOS and iOS is on the Mac. Not sure what that's supposed to mean. Windows 10 is an equally capable OS to MacOS (and way more so than iOS), and you could argue that its more advanced since Microsoft has advanced the integration of mouse/trackpad, touch, pen, and dial into one OS, while Apple continues to leave all of that out of their plans of MacOS and iOS. Further, Microsoft is now releasing updates several times a year (more frequent than Apple in iOS or MacOS) with significant feature enhancements.

Regarding battery life, there are plenty of SP4 owners that find its battery life sufficient, or the SP4 would not have scored higher than the iPad on this survey. Your statement that it is mostly used "plugged in" is simply not true. Further, the battery life of the SP4 is compatible to all the other 2in1 devices of this generation. Kaby Lake is an advance that should yield much better battery life across the 2in1 devices... we'll find out later this week when they are available.

I use windows because I have no choice and am completely ambivalent about it.

My point about battery life is the sp4 to me is all about form factor, battery life is terrible. As far as being plugged in, it's my experience. I don't care on how it scores on a survey I have my opinion and I bought one anyway.

Windows 10 has a lot of baggage, I'd rather use iOS 11 any day, every day over windows. I look forward to the day the iPad becomes my primary computer.

 

[convergent]

I use windows because I have no choice and am completely ambivalent about it.

My point about battery life is the sp4 to me is all about form factor, battery life is terrible. As far as being plugged in, it's my experience. I don't care on how it scores on a survey I have my opinion and I bought one anyway.

Windows 10 has a lot of baggage, I'd rather use iOS 11 any day, every day over windows. I look forward to the day the iPad becomes my primary computer.

Not everyone's battery requirements are the same. From what I have seen, the SP4 on average gets about 5-6 hours on average. That is enough for me in most cases. The new one should be 50% better based on relative specs. That would easily cover a day of work.

Every OS has baggage. The baggage of iOS is that its a smartphone OS that Apple is trying to make support a tablet. For a casual user, that is probably fine. For anyone that needs to get more intense work, its a total fail. You can't run any of the commercial full functions versions of any software. You can't connect any of the myriad of peripherals to it. Its just way too limited in many cases, and that isn't like to change. Even simple things like complex spreadsheets or reconciling multiple documents at the same time is too big of a task on iOS. And there are business applications that aren't available and never will be on iOS... in many cases they are just available on Windows; which at least I can run in Parallels on a Mac. I do semi-professional photography, and that is more likely to happen on iOS, but still not happening in the near term. If your pro needs are constrained to Word documents, calendar, email, and web browsing, you'll probably be fine. A lot of professionals need much more than that to be productive.

I've been away from Windows for years and have been digging into Windows 10 and really like it. And I'm loving the integration of touch, mouse/trackpad, and pen... not tried dial yet. Its a shame Apple doesn't want to give that choice to its customers and effectively forces you to buy two devices to accomplish similar use cases.

 

[convergent]

After the hoopla about Consumer Reports negative report on the Surface, I came back here for some info and realized I never finished my experience with Surface Pro.

After returning the SP4, I did by the new Surface Pro in the i5/8G/256G version. After having it for several months, I can say that I love the thing. Improvements over the SP4 in three key areas that were meaningful to me; 1) battery life improved by about 50% - I'm getting about 8-9 hours of actual use during the work day; 2) the edges are more smooth making it easier on the hands when holding as a tablet; and 3) the new pen and inking experience are about as much like writing with a pen on paper as I can imagine.

I use it when in the home office docked with a 4K display, bluetooth keyboard and Surface Arc mouse; with the Surface itself in studio tilt mode and primarily a dedicated OneNote pen based tablet. I've pretty much merged all my apps and data from my Mac, and my work issued Dell laptop to it.... so now can carry everything with me on one device. While Windows 10 is not iOS for tablet "play" things, I find that there is a good selection of news apps and the usual things like Netflix, etc. for entertainment. Marking up PDFs with the pen in tablet mode is also quite nice. I have my phone for playing games which is where I played them even when I had an iPad available to me.

On other forums, I've seen that some people had out of the box defective units and Microsoft has been good about returns if they were in the US and had access to go to a store. Since they aren't global, non US buyers I think may have been scared off by those reports. Mine has been fine with no real issues to report.

I've had the opportunity to go around the world with this thing since I've had it and my load is greatly lightened. On a recent trip from US to India, my traveling colleague had packed in his bag a Dell laptop, Macbook, and an iPad. I watched as he had to charge them all up, connect them each to wifi at every stop, and just the weight of hauling all that stuff along with the accompanying accessories, chargers, dongles, etc.. I had just the one device that pretty much did everything he was doing with all that stuff.

Bottom line is I love the combination of touch, pointing device, and pen on one device. I wish Apple would stop being stubborn and build something that competes with the Surface Pro, but sadly I think they prefer to sell everyone two expensive devices instead of one.

 

[derekamoss]

I have yet to experience any surface production problems. I have had Surface RT(still running today's my moms Facebook toy) had a Surface pro 3 that lasted until I dropped and cracked the screen. Got a surface pro 4 with complete insurance this time and used it once for a broken screen. All were fine. My friends who got them haven't had any issues other than a power cord failing. So I guess there are the lucky few lol. I still stand by telling anyone to get a Surface.