Microsoft Surface Beats iPad in Design, Productivity, and Accessory Use in New J.D. Power Study

[I7guy]

Not nonsense as I haven't caught a single virus in 10 years of using PCs and that's my strategy

Anti-virus is a huge business, so someone is getting computer viruses.

There is nothing simple about this product line which asks me to choose between a tablet with the best display and the tablet with the best performance. Yes that is confusing for a typical customer

You have no way of knowing how a "typical" customer thinks. It's like choosing an f-150 vs a shelby mustang. Best cargo area or fastest to 60. Consumers make purchase decisions all of the time.

What's the use of all this power in my Air 2 if I can run only crippled mobile apps? The Surface 3 can run full fledged MS Office and Photoshop. The Air 2 can't. The Surfave can run desktop apps. The iPad can't

The sp4 can't match the battery life or sheer ease of consumption of the ipad either. And the surface 3 can't really run the heavy duty applications my i7 sp4 can run. Albeit the old choice between performance and battery life that has to made with the surface line.

 

[Radon87000]

It is a fact the stylus on the ipad pro is better than the sp4. Not that either is not competent, but the stylus on the ipad pro is outstanding while the stylus on the sp4 is just good.

I have read multiple reviews stating they are equivalent hence its not a fact

So again we're back to the sp4 doesn't have it all and have to get generations old hardware to get decent battery life.

Not any different than buying an 2 year old hardware for gettting the best performance and highest resolution

You should get what your needs dictate, but that doesn't mean others don't see the utility in the ipad.

Utility which asks for laptop prices and does less than a laptop

Maybe it doesn't happen to you, but it sure happens to many people. Way to easy to get ring 0 level execution permissions in windows.

If people manage to get infected with an antivirus installed they deserve whatever they get because they went looking for trouble. When I try to break something ,surprise surprise, it breaks

I forgot about that. It should run like "crap", given it's running on a virtual machine inside of IOS.

Virtual machines don't transform a usable OS into unusable unless the hardware was insufficient in the first place

Their conclusion, most certainly is relevant. You said windows 10 runs better than windows xp on old hardware. PC world disproved it.

A PC from 11 years ago is classified as ancient. I was talking about conventional old computers from 2009 and the like so what you posted was irrelevant to what I was saying.

I'm going by the apple website who published their official specs. It's not of interest what some reviewer posted as their anecdotal experience.

I don't care what Apple states. Their battery life estimates are based off controlled lab conditions and not real world usage. I never get 9 hours of battery life out of my Air 2 or Pro with constant use.

Yes, Tim Cook "has done nothing noteworthy" as he is cleaning up the ipad mess that was left him as I explained above. And as ipads have some sort of compromise, so does the surface 4, heat and battery life, bulk and lack of cellular chip to name a few. Going forward I expect all idevice flagships to have at least tru-tone.

There is no mess because he was handed the world's most popular and top selling tablet on a platter and he flunked it and 6 years later continues to flunk it

You brought it up.

I don't recall talking about PCs from 2006

As said above, it was a sale price, same as iphone selling at $0 by some carriers. The ipad has the a9 processor that destroys the a8x.

I always buy unlocked phones and pay the real price.

The A9's multi core score was shown to be lower than the A8X. That's not what I call destroying

Reasonable to one is not reasonable to another. We'll see what the price is, what the phone is called, what the features are in a few months.

As a middle class consumer I consider a phone with 32GB space and priced at 1K a crazy price. There are enough rich guys on the planet who can probably afford one . Even a 5K iPhone would be reasonable to certain persons

Then there is this and look carefully from 2011, the stock price, the company valuation. Some noteworthy sources have already said, he is earning his keep. Touch id, apple pay, air pods, apple watch, new idevices, laptops, 64 bit operating systems that sent the competition into a frenzy etc. Right "only have seen thinner ipads". :rolleyes

This has nothing to do with the discussion on iPads. Keep on topic. The iPad graph doesn't look so pretty

It's called for what it is, a sale. The new ipad should improve the downmarket penetration and bring in new apple customers. I'm even getting one to replace my aging ipad 2 workhorse.

The Mini was costing less than this tablet and even that is declining. Good luck with your prediction. I wouldn't put my money down on it

Not every device gets updated with every feature at the same time. Look at Microsoft, they did exactly that with the sp4, bulky, less battery life than it's predecessor, more heat and no cell chip. That's even more egregious than what you mentioned given at this time an almost two year old device.

The Surface Pro 4 is a laptop replacement. So you get features for bearing that bulkiness and heat. If I pay more for the 12.9 all I get is the same enlarged iOS but an inferior display,inferior battery and more chunky

 

[Radon87000]

Anti-virus is a huge business, so someone is getting computer viruses.

That doesn't mean anything. Even Macs have antivirusea

If you read lab reports of AV Test and AV comparatives you will find almost all anti viruses have a greater than 90% detection. I got Norton because it has a 99% detection and behavioural detection. So if you manage to get a virus from that 0.3% which bypasses both the SONAR and signature you were doing something you shouldn't have and you deserve it

You have no way of knowing how a "typical" customer thinks. It's like choosing an f-150 vs a shelby mustang. Best cargo area or fastest to 60. Consumers make purchase decisions all of the time.

The consumer has spoken. The iPad sales are tanking. Surface is getting more popular

The sp4 can't match the battery life or sheer ease of consumption of the ipad either. And the surface 3 can't really run the heavy duty applications my i7 sp4 can run. Albeit the old choice between performance and battery life that has to made with the surface line.

The Pro 12.9 cant match the weight or the display quality or the sheer ease of use of a 9.7 inch pro. The software underlying both the iPads doesn't have the applications to utilise all that hardware under the hood. Its the same situation as me buying a Titan XP and a i7 6950 and use it with Linux. A Windows PC running a GTX 980 and a 4770k would have more utility than my PC despite being half as powerful

The choice between the best display and the best performance remains even in the iPad. You cant get both

 

[I7guy]

That doesn't mean anything. Even Macs have

It's the harbinger of the issue.

The consumer has spoken. The iPad sales are tanking. Surface is getting more popular

Yes they have and iPad is the most popular tablet out there.

The Pro 12.9 cant match the weight or the display quality or the sheer ease of use of a 9.7 inch pro. The software underlying both the iPads doesn't have the applications to utilise all that hardware under the hood. Its the same situation as me buying a Titan XP and a i7 6950 and use it with Linux. A Windows PC running a GTX 980 and a 4770k would have more utility than my PC despite being half as powerful

It's (pro 12.9) doing quite well and as you said above the consumer has spoken. What the iPad Pro 12.9 does well no windows machine can match without specialty hardware.

The choice between the best display and the best performance remains even in the iPad. You cant get both

Same goes for surface, the choice between good battery life, performance and cellular capabilities is not in one model.
[doublepost=1491717539][/doublepost]

I have read multiple reviews stating they are equivalent hence its not a fact

It isn't as refined or powerful, I have an sp4 and have played extensively with an ipad pro and it's a fact.

Not any different than buying an 2 year old hardware for gettting the best performance and highest resolution

Only you make that distinction, most people don't buy based on a spec sheet, they buy based on need. And the ipad pro 12.9 will be refreshed so you can pay highest price for the best screen and most performance. The same issue with the surface pro with battery life, performance and cellular chip, as mentioned multiple times.

Utility which asks for laptop prices and does less than a laptop

But does a number of things better, if you don't need windows. Not everybody needs windows.

If people manage to get infected with an antivirus installed they deserve whatever they get because they went looking for trouble. When I try to break something ,surprise surprise, it breaks

Windows is the most attacked o/s. Every wonder why Microsoft issues thousands of security patches?

Virtual machines don't transform a usable OS into unusable unless the hardware was insufficient in e first place

Virtual machines need powerful hardware at their core, by their very nature. It's a great jailbreak exercise, but arm chips can't run windows software. Good luck Microsoft.

A PC from 11 years ago is classified as ancient. I was talking about conventional old computers from 2009 and the like so what you posted was irrevant to what I was saying.

What you post is irrelevant to what the article showed.

I don't care what Apple states. Their battery life estimates are based off controlled lab conditions and not real world usage. I never get 9 hours of battery life out of my Air 2 or Pro with constant use.

By the same token, I don't care what anecdotal evidence you have of battery life. Apple website states 10 hours.

There is no mess because he was handed the world's most popular and top selling tablet on a platter and he flunked it and 6 years later continues to flunk it

It wasn't "him" who "flunked" it.

I don't recall talking about PCs from 2006

Maybe get the original quote.

I always buy unlocked phones and pay the real price.

Real price is what you buy it for. If the carrier is giving away an iphone at $0 the real price is $0. But that is not the msrp selling price.

The A9's multi core score was shown to be lower than the A8X. That's not what I call destroying

Single core destroyed a8x.

As a middle class consumer I consider a phone with 32GB space and priced at 1K a crazy price. There are enough rich guys on the planet who can probably afford one . Even a 5K iPhone would be reasonable to certain persons

You should get what you need, want and can afford. It doesn't change what I need, want and can afford.

This has nothing to do with the discussion on iPads. Keep on topic. The iPad graph doesn't look so pretty

It has everything to do with this topic as the totality of apple is doing very well.

The Mini was costing less than this tablet and even that is declining. Good luck with your prediction. I wouldn't put my money down on it

You didn't put your money on the iphone 7 either and look how that turned out.

The Surface Pro 4 is a laptop replacement. So you get features for bearing that bulkiness and heat. If I pay more for the 12.9 all I get is the same enlarged iOS but an inferior display,inferior battery and more chunky

The sp4 is not a laptop replacement. It's too small, with too much bulk and the i7/i5 has lousy battery life with not enough ports. That said, it's a good traveling form factor compromise. As an owner of one, that is my opinion.

 

[Mildredop]

What is the "Microsoft Surface"? Looking online, there's the Surface Pro 4 or the Surface Book.

Is the Surface different to the Surface Pro 4? Or is the "Microsoft Surface" the non-Pro version?

I'm confused...

 

[0lf]

Not nonsense as I haven't caught a single virus in 10 years of using PCs and that's my strategy

Me neither. But I don't make my personal case a generality. When for example you have some malvertising campaign that plague legitimate site...

If the 12.9 and the 9.7 sales were increasing I am sure that's one point Cook would,love to point out to investors

Why are you translating "not that bad" into "increasing" ?

There is nothing simple about this product line which asks me to choose between a tablet with the best display and the tablet with the best performance. Yes that is confusing for a typical customer

The screen size has a much more significative impact than true tone. So I don't see how it can be confusing unless someone don't know its needs and just want "the best".

What's the use of all this power in my Air 2 if I can run only crippled mobile apps? The Surface 3 can run full fledged MS Office and Photoshop. The Air 2 can't. The Surfave can run desktop apps. The iPad can't
As I posted earlier an i7 6950 and a GTX 1080 are useless if all you can run is candy crush and movies

You fall into caricature (again). You have productivity app on iOS. You can do with it a large part of what is done on a full desktop app. And what can not be done won't generally be done either it on a ATOM based system due to performance issues. It is why netbook disappeared : people believe having an OS that run desktop apps was enough, but the experience was abysmal due to performance.
Here is the test of the higher end surface 3 by notebookcheck : https://www.notebookcheck.net/Microsoft-Surface-3-Tablet-Convertible-Review.141116.0.html

We open 10 RAW pictures (around 20 MB each) and use different tools. The opening of the pictures takes a couple of seconds each. Crop commands are executed immediately, picture corrections like exposure, color and brightness are just as quick, but the corresponding preview is showed with slight delays. More complex actions, like the use of the brush finger tool, however, can result in significant delays depending on the extent of the modifications. The same applies for cut commands. The CPU runs at 2.37 GHz for the time of the actions and drops back to idle again afterwards (around 0.6 GHz). Filters stress the CPU as well and the preview is shown with a delay. The memory workload is at around 64 % of the 4 GB RAM, 1500 MB are only allocated for Photoshop CS5. The 2 GB version of the Surface 3 is therefore not suitable for these kind of applications.
Adobe Lightroom is another popular tool for picture editing. Similar to Photoshop there are no problems when you open RAW files and with light processing (correcting exposure, contrast,…). The export of the pictures can take a couple of seconds.

So adequate for what can also be done on an iPad, and painful for more demanding tasks.
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No the ipad is not the future of PC's, that's just marketing.

I think it is just a bad understanding of what Apple do with the iPad. If Apple believe the iPad is the future, they will stop making macs. It is not the case. Just like cars have not replaced trucks.
[doublepost=1491729810][/doublepost]

I have read multiple reviews stating they are equivalent hence its not a fact

From my own experience in store, handwriting is much better with the Apple pencil, but I guess YMMV.

Not any different than buying an 2 year old hardware for gettting the best performance and highest resolution

The iPad pro is not deprecated (and not 2 year old). The surface 3 is not in production anymore https://www.thurrott.com/mobile/microsoft-surface/70398/surface-3-stock-starting-dry

The A9's multi core score was shown to be lower than the A8X. That's not what I call destroying

from https://arstechnica.com/apple/2017/...-people-who-have-never-upgraded-their-tablet/ the iPad do a bit better than the air 2 even in multi core. Globally, in multi core, it seems to be very close. That said, in single core and graphic, the A9 is significantly better.

The Surface Pro 4 is a laptop notebook replacement.

which makes a poor tablet and poor laptop.

 

[maflynn]

What is the "Microsoft Surface"? Looking online, there's the Surface Pro 4 or the Surface Book.

Is the Surface different to the Surface Pro 4? Or is the "Microsoft Surface" the non-Pro version?

I'm confused...

Surface Pro, a tablet that works like a laptop.
Surface Book a 2-in-1 laptop
Surface Studio a AIO dekstop computers.

 

[0lf]

Surface Pro, a tablet that works like a laptop notebook.
Surface Book a 2-in-1 laptop
Surface Studio a AIO dekstop computers.

Why do you say the Surface pro works as a laptop when its lappability is so poor ?
And you forgot the Surface (3), which is largely discussed here, is a deprecated device, ran on ATOM chip, and was the only one in the surface product line to have good battery life and LTE.

 

[maflynn]

Why do you say the Surface pro works as a laptop

Because that's what MS was marketing it as

 

[0lf]

Because that's what MS was marketing it as
View attachment 695498

poor marketing then.
It is like insisting in saying the SP4 has 9hours of battery life because Microsoft says so.

BTW, I don't see any lap on the pictures

Just before someone say so, I see a distance difference when Apple say "the iPad can replace a PC" -> what you can do, and when you say "the SP works as a laptop" -> how it works, on your lap. But may be it is because I am not natively speaking english ?

 

[utilitas]

May call this thread the battle of the quotes.

But seriously, I am waiting for the new iPP's and the SP5 to see whats next. I still have to decide if I only want a tablet (9.7/10.5 iPP) or a hybrid (SP4/SP5). For me the SP would be a laptop/tablet replacement. The iPP however never would. Espacially not the 9.7/10.5 version I would want. It would just be a tablet.

 

[cgsnipinva]

The iPad is an interesting device whose market niche is only starting to develop. The original set of iPads were no different than other tablets --- enhanced consumption devices running mobile OS (iOS, Android, etc).

I think the iPad Pro and iOS has shown a maturation into something more. Is it something that will replace my iMac? No.

However,.......

The improvement in performance, battery, and form factor has made it a more productive mobile device. The keyboard and Apple pen are really solid and functional. Additionally, the compact form factor makes the iPad pro very functional. Case in point - I know longer take notes on paper - I use Apple Notes, One Note or Notability for meetings or drafting out concepts like an account strategy before I finalize in power point or keynote. I also go to meeting with my iPad pro. If other people are using laptops for notes I use my iPad Pro with all needed functionality. However, if it is one of those meetings where there are no laptops and people are paper writing notes - I flatten out my iPad and use notability to hand write with Apple pen. Great combination. People have tried that with their surfaces in our firm - and its not as comfortable or efficient.

We do have surfaces issued to executives (I had eschewed it) and there have been complaints. The key advantage of the Surface is not how effectively it was designed as a tablet - but that it runs full blown versions of the software (office, windows, etc). The problem is - it does not work as well as you would think. There are software snafus and overheating. As a result - people have been turning them in to get the normal HP laptops we give out. More executives in my firm are purchasing their own iPad Pro and using them as their mobile computer.

Where iPad needs to develop is not the form factor - I think Apple nailed it for the tablet segment. it is the software. They need to have the same version of their key software, Notes, iWork, etc with all the features you find on the Mac. I use Apple Notes a lot on my iPad Pro (12 inch) and I wish I could change fonts and text colors like I could on my Mac. Having said that - the latest rounds of updates made to iWork were applied to both MacOs and iOS.

A more personal case that has enamored me to my iPad. I use MoneyWiz for personal financial management because it syncs across my phone, Mac and iPad. So I can always access where our accounts are and what bills have been scheduled on any device. I use my bank website/App to get data and check if things I have cleared. On my iPad - I can split screen my bank app and my Monewiz app and make updates in one sitting without printing. I used to do this on my Mac - I now do this exclusively on my iPad because of the convenience and light form factor.

So the iPad is slowing doing more and more of what a laptop or Mac desktop environment - and it can do things that a laptop or desktop cannot readily do. To prove this - I point to the applications that lend themselves to a tablet. Things like home design or CAD programs where drawing and using the pen is more natural. Another case in point - I was designing my new backyard patio on my iPad using HomeDesign software. I was able to walk through my design with my contractor on my iPad using FaceTime and sharing the design document. We were able to walk through issues and make changes real time. All while I was sitting at a coffee shop.

There still is growth and development that is required here - don't get me wrong - but the iPad will be an interesting item as time moves on. Again the key here is software - iOS maintains great capabilities on a professional tablet - Android is just crap and has crap applications. The App environment for iOS is far superior for a tablet and Apple has made significant investments to make this work.

Comparing the iPad to a MS a Surface is a little like comparing an Apple to an Apple's cousin. The MS Surface is a laptop squeezed into a tablet form factor. While it packs a lot of power into a thicker heavier version of a tablet - that in of itself causes problems,s. The iPad is evolving into a different form factor. It won't replace my iMac - never - I love that machine - I do all my heavy photo editing and making family photo books on that. However, I also love my iPad for what it provides.

Final case in point for the iPad tablet approach - my mom. She is actually fairly adept at using computers. She is Google heavy and does mostly email, web searching, writing church bulletins (with graphics) and keeps some spreadsheets. However, she would freak out when update messages would come along - or those web based scams on your computer being infected. Also she had hard time dealing with the computer going asleep, etc.

I moved her to an iPad. The application specific focus was very intuitive for her and she is able to do 100% of what she did on her huge desktop on something that is more comfortable for her and less intimidating. She pays for iCloud storage so I can send her photos of the family and she can upload photos to her iPad from her phone. Since there is no virus issues and it is easy to operate she calls me less about iT issues.
[doublepost=1491753278][/doublepost]

May call this thread the battle of the quotes.

But seriously, I am waiting for the new iPP's and the SP5 to see whats next. I still have to decide if I only want a tablet (9.7/10.5 iPP) or a hybrid (SP4/SP5). For me the SP would be a laptop/tablet replacement. The iPP however never would. Espacially not the 9.7/10.5 version I would want. It would just be a tablet.

Agree - I am interested as well. However, what I am more interested in is the software development - recent updates to iOS and related software points to Apple recognizing the need to add more power features to software layer to maximize the benefit of the iPad in the market. I see it this way:

Apple's hardware approach is superior to MS as MS just engineered laptop components into a smaller form factor. Apple is coming the other way providing more power and capability from mobility hardware. Their implementation of ARM has been outstanding and can support more power and functionality at the software layer than we currently see.

Microsoft has the software powers but will run into issues if they continue to try to shrink the form factor as its taking a hardware stack that wasn't meant for this purpose.

In the long run - I see Apple having the better play. The software updates that bring more power and capability to the iPad line will be easier to do. if you get an iPad Pro 12.9 inch with an A10X/A11X processor, 8GB of RAM and Apple's new GPU approach - you will have a winner. More powerful productivity apps and iLife apps will make this a perfect replacement for a laptop that is truly mobile and optimized for touch and Apple Pen.

 

[sracer]

The iPad is an interesting device whose market niche is only starting to develop. The original set of iPads were no different than other tablets --- enhanced consumption devices running mobile OS (iOS, Android, etc)....

I stopped reading at this point. Sorry but your opening statement is not reflective of reality. The iPad was indeed far different than the tablets that preceded them... and they remained different than the tablets the followed them. To claim that iPads started out (and implying they remain) enhanced consumption devices ignores the significant role the iPad has had in various industries. It has made inroads where other "enhanced consumption devices" failed.

 

[Radon87000]

It's the harbinger of the issue.

So now Macs catch viruses?

Yes they have and iPad is the most popular tablet out there.

Its the most popular tablet but the popularity is declining

What the iPad Pro 12.9 does well no windows machine can match without specialty hardware.

A weaker Windows machine than the iPad Pro 12.9 can do more than it

Same goes for surface, the choice between good battery life, performance and cellular capabilities is not in one model.

Good. You agree iPad has the same tradeoffs

It isn't as refined or powerful, I have an sp4 and have played extensively with an ipad pro and it's a fact.

Its not.

https://twohonestguys.co/tech/apple-pencil-vs-surface-pro-pen-4-which-is-best/

Only you make that distinction, most people don't buy based on a spec sheet, they buy based on need. And the ipad pro 12.9 will be refreshed so you can pay highest price for the best screen and most performance. The same issue with the surface pro with battery life, performance and cellular chip, as mentioned multiple times.

When I pay over 700 for a tablet it has to be the best in every area. When I paid for a GTX 1080ti I wanted the best performance. When I pay for an XPS 13 I want the best ultrabook on the market. I dont accept compromises when I pay top dollars

But does a number of things better, if you don't need windows. Not everybody needs windows.

It does only one thing better and thats consumption and its not that Surface isnt good at it, its slightly more frustarting to use. In all other tasks it gets steamrolled

Windows is the most attacked o/s. Every wonder why Microsoft issues thousands of security patches?

Its a part of the process to make the OS resilient and is never ending. Regardless they are not a replacement for an anti virus. I know people who use anti viruses on XP ever since Microsoft killed support for it

Virtual machines need powerful hardware at their core, by their very nature. It's a great jailbreak exercise, but arm chips can't run windows software. Good luck Microsoft.

ARM chips will run Windows in the future but its going to take time. But at least they are trying something new instead of making their tablets thinner and recycling old tablets

What you post is irrelevant to what the article showed.

The article was brought in by you as if it was a counter to my point when it didnt mention anything relevant regarding what I said

By the same token, I don't care what anecdotal evidence you have of battery life. Apple website states 10 hours.

And even thats pathetic. Why should their $800 flagship tablet have the same bettery life as a $320 tablet? Does the iPhone 7 Plus have the same battery life as a 7?

It wasn't "him" who "flunked" it.

It was. Even the iPhone will inevitably drop in sales by 2050 or so and we will have people blaming Steve for not seeing 50 years in the future instead of blaming the guy paid to run the show

Maybe get the original quote.

Looked at it. Didnt see any relevance to the article

Real price is what you buy it for. If the carrier is giving away an iphone at $0 the real price is $0. But that is not the msrp selling price.

It doesnt matter if you pay indirectly or directly. You are paying for it.

Single core destroyed a8x.

The chip as a whole isnt better because despite being released a year later than the A8X it loses in multi core

You should get what you need, want and can afford. It doesn't change what I need, want and can afford.

Exactly and for me. Anything less than 128GB storage at 1K is a ripoff especially now that the competition has set 64GB as the standard base storage.

It has everything to do with this topic as the totality of apple is doing very well.

You mean the iPhone is doing well.

You didn't put your money on the iphone 7 either and look how that turned out.

Thanks to Samsung for messing up the Note 7. My money is on an iPhone super cycle this year and the next ad its back to the decline after that

The sp4 is not a laptop replacement. It's too small, with too much bulk and the i7/i5 has lousy battery life with not enough ports. That said, it's a good traveling form factor compromise. As an owner of one, that is my opinion.

If Tim Cook can say the iPad Pro is a PC replacement than the Surface obviously is

Me neither. But I don't make my personal case a generality. When for example you have some malvertising campaign that plague legitimate site...

Its nothing personal. When you use Windows with care and a degree of common sense,you dont get infected. While you are installing look out for crap ware being installed. Dont download torrents. USe Scriptmonkey addon. Dont visit websites you shouldnt. Run a Malwarebytes scan once in a while. These are basics and no novice follows them. I have seen infected computers with tons of toolbars,crap ware multiple free antiviruses installed. The problem is not Windows but PEBKAC.

Microsoft has sorted this out somehwhat in creators update by offering an option to not allow installing anything outside their store

Why are you translating "not that bad" into "increasing" ?

I agree iPad is doing well,just not as well back in 2011

The screen size has a much more significative impact than true tone. So I don't see how it can be confusing unless someone don't know its needs and just want "the best".

I want the best screen and the largest screen when I pay more than 700 because I am nearly paying as much as a mid range laptop. The iPad Pro 9.7 in addition to True Tone has DCI P3 wide color support.

You fall into caricature (again). You have productivity app on iOS. You can do with it a large part of what is done on a full desktop app. And what can not be done won't generally be done either it on a ATOM based system due to performance issues. It is why netbook disappeared : people believe having an OS that run desktop apps was enough, but the experience was abysmal due to performance.

The performance may be average but you can do the task at hand. On an mobile app you cant do that task at all. Which option is better? I have an option of running Battlefield 3 at 30 fps on a Surface or not at all on an iPad. Which is better?

So adequate for what can also be done on an iPad, and painful for more demanding tasks.

So a jack of all trades master of none. But you can do anything you want

I think it is just a bad understanding of what Apple do with the iPad. If Apple believe the iPad is the future, they will stop making macs. It is not the case. Just like cars have not replaced trucks.

I agree. The Mac or Windows is not going away. Heck I cant even make apps for iOS without owning a Mac

The iPad pro is not deprecated (and not 2 year old). The surface 3 is not in production anymore https://www.thurrott.com/mobile/microsoft-surface/70398/surface-3-stock-starting-dry

The iPad Pro 12.9 needs a replacement and should be put out to pasture. How come a more expensive tablet is being sold with an inferior display

the iPad do a bit better than the air 2 even in multi core. Globally, in multi core, it seems to be very close. That said, in single core and graphic, the A9 is significantly better.

Certain geekbench scores had the A8X actually beating the A9. We can round off these small victories as errors. The A9 is better but it is not as better as the A10 was over the A9

which makes a poor tablet and poor laptop.

Its better than an enlarged iPhone[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
[doublepost=1491760239][/doublepost]

The iPad is an interesting device whose market niche is only starting to develop. The original set of iPads were no different than other tablets --- enhanced consumption devices running mobile OS (iOS, Android, etc).

I think the iPad Pro and iOS has shown a maturation into something more. Is it something that will replace my iMac? No.

However,.......

The improvement in performance, battery, and form factor has made it a more productive mobile device. The keyboard and Apple pen are really solid and functional. Additionally, the compact form factor makes the iPad pro very functional. Case in point - I know longer take notes on paper - I use Apple Notes, One Note or Notability for meetings or drafting out concepts like an account strategy before I finalize in power point or keynote. I also go to meeting with my iPad pro. If other people are using laptops for notes I use my iPad Pro with all needed functionality. However, if it is one of those meetings where there are no laptops and people are paper writing notes - I flatten out my iPad and use notability to hand write with Apple pen. Great combination. People have tried that with their surfaces in our firm - and its not as comfortable or efficient.

We do have surfaces issued to executives (I had eschewed it) and there have been complaints. The key advantage of the Surface is not how effectively it was designed as a tablet - but that it runs full blown versions of the software (office, windows, etc). The problem is - it does not work as well as you would think. There are software snafus and overheating. As a result - people have been turning them in to get the normal HP laptops we give out. More executives in my firm are purchasing their own iPad Pro and using them as their mobile computer.

Where iPad needs to develop is not the form factor - I think Apple nailed it for the tablet segment. it is the software. They need to have the same version of their key software, Notes, iWork, etc with all the features you find on the Mac. I use Apple Notes a lot on my iPad Pro (12 inch) and I wish I could change fonts and text colors like I could on my Mac. Having said that - the latest rounds of updates made to iWork were applied to both MacOs and iOS.

A more personal case that has enamored me to my iPad. I use MoneyWiz for personal financial management because it syncs across my phone, Mac and iPad. So I can always access where our accounts are and what bills have been scheduled on any device. I use my bank website/App to get data and check if things I have cleared. On my iPad - I can split screen my bank app and my Monewiz app and make updates in one sitting without printing. I used to do this on my Mac - I now do this exclusively on my iPad because of the convenience and light form factor.

So the iPad is slowing doing more and more of what a laptop or Mac desktop environment - and it can do things that a laptop or desktop cannot readily do. To prove this - I point to the applications that lend themselves to a tablet. Things like home design or CAD programs where drawing and using the pen is more natural. Another case in point - I was designing my new backyard patio on my iPad using HomeDesign software. I was able to walk through my design with my contractor on my iPad using FaceTime and sharing the design document. We were able to walk through issues and make changes real time. All while I was sitting at a coffee shop.

There still is growth and development that is required here - don't get me wrong - but the iPad will be an interesting item as time moves on. Again the key here is software - iOS maintains great capabilities on a professional tablet - Android is just crap and has crap applications. The App environment for iOS is far superior for a tablet and Apple has made significant investments to make this work.

Comparing the iPad to a MS a Surface is a little like comparing an Apple to an Apple's cousin. The MS Surface is a laptop squeezed into a tablet form factor. While it packs a lot of power into a thicker heavier version of a tablet - that in of itself causes problems,s. The iPad is evolving into a different form factor. It won't replace my iMac - never - I love that machine - I do all my heavy photo editing and making family photo books on that. However, I also love my iPad for what it provides.

Final case in point for the iPad tablet approach - my mom. She is actually fairly adept at using computers. She is Google heavy and does mostly email, web searching, writing church bulletins (with graphics) and keeps some spreadsheets. However, she would freak out when update messages would come along - or those web based scams on your computer being infected. Also she had hard time dealing with the computer going asleep, etc.

I moved her to an iPad. The application specific focus was very intuitive for her and she is able to do 100% of what she did on her huge desktop on something that is more comfortable for her and less intimidating. She pays for iCloud storage so I can send her photos of the family and she can upload photos to her iPad from her phone. Since there is no virus issues and it is easy to operate she calls me less about iT issues.
[doublepost=1491753278][/doublepost]

Agree - I am interested as well. However, what I am more interested in is the software development - recent updates to iOS and related software points to Apple recognizing the need to add more power features to software layer to maximize the benefit of the iPad in the market. I see it this way:

Apple's hardware approach is superior to MS as MS just engineered laptop components into a smaller form factor. Apple is coming the other way providing more power and capability from mobility hardware. Their implementation of ARM has been outstanding and can support more power and functionality at the software layer than we currently see.

Microsoft has the software powers but will run into issues if they continue to try to shrink the form factor as its taking a hardware stack that wasn't meant for this purpose.

In the long run - I see Apple having the better play. The software updates that bring more power and capability to the iPad line will be easier to do. if you get an iPad Pro 12.9 inch with an A10X/A11X processor, 8GB of RAM and Apple's new GPU approach - you will have a winner. More powerful productivity apps and iLife apps will make this a perfect replacement for a laptop that is truly mobile and optimized for touch and Apple Pen.

All this is interesting to read but if I tried replacing a Surface with an iPad Pro for work I would be fired within a day

 

[cgsnipinva]

Apple have a yawning product gap and refuse to fill it; portable touch device with desktop class OS - very simple.

No amount of advertising will make me and many others think differently...Apple lead the industry into new markets and then sit and watch while the same industry runs rings around them trying out all sorts of products and kicking Apple down the street in the process.

Innovation my ass Phil. How is that Mac Pro working out for you?

We now know that Apple's A series of processors have the power to run MacOS (iOS is a derivative of MacOS). There is also a lot of smoke that MacOS may be able to run on Arm. If that is the case it will be easy to load MacOS into the iPad if Apple wanted to. Would that make the iPad instantly more attractive to you? Why.

MS' approach is to take the desktop experience and move it into the mobile space. Apple is coming from the other way. The applications are what counts. As of now - iPad pro can replace a significant amount of my and most people's workflow from their desktop and still have all the benefits of a mobile device. Improved functionality will come from improvements to OS and application software. That can be easily done. MS has the harder approach - squeezing a desktop OS and application stack into a mobile device environment. What MS needs to do is get a mobile OS that it can leverage into this slot.
[doublepost=1491761315][/doublepost]

I stopped reading at this point. Sorry but your opening statement is not reflective of reality. The iPad was indeed far different than the tablets that preceded them... and they remained different than the tablets the followed them. To claim that iPads started out (and implying they remain) enhanced consumption devices ignores the significant role the iPad has had in various industries. It has made inroads where other "enhanced consumption devices" failed.

I think you misinterpreted my post. The original iPad was primarily a consumption device. I never said it stayed that way - in fact read the rest of my post. Originally - the iPad and Android tablets were consumption with the Android tablets being quite inferior because of the lack of quality applications.

The quality of iOS and Apple's management of that platform is what made it useful in many industrial applications that Android tablets and even MS Surface has not been able to leverage.

Read the rest of my post - you might agree with me.

 

[cgsnipinva]

So now Macs catch viruses?



Its the most popular tablet but the popularity is declining


A weaker Windows machine than the iPad Pro 12.9 can do more than it



Good. You agree iPad has the same tradeoffs


Its not.

https://twohonestguys.co/tech/apple-pencil-vs-surface-pro-pen-4-which-is-best/



When I pay over 700 for a tablet it has to be the best in every area. When I paid for a GTX 1080ti I wanted the best performance. When I pay for an XPS 13 I want the best ultrabook on the market. I dont accept compromises when I pay top dollars



It does only one thing better and thats consumption and its not that Surface isnt good at it, its slightly more frustarting to use. In all other tasks it gets steamrolled



Its a part of the process to make the OS resilient and is never ending. Regardless they are not a replacement for an anti virus. I know people who use anti viruses on XP ever since Microsoft killed support for it



ARM chips will run Windows in the future but its going to take time. But at least they are trying something new instead of making their tablets thinner and recycling old tablets


The article was brought in by you as if it was a counter to my point when it didnt mention anything relevant regarding what I said




And even thats pathetic. Why should their $800 flagship tablet have the same bettery life as a $320 tablet? Does the iPhone 7 Plus have the same battery life as a 7?



It was. Even the iPhone will inevitably drop in sales by 2050 or so and we will have people blaming Steve for not seeing 50 years in the future instead of blaming the guy paid to run the show



Looked at it. Didnt see any relevance to the article



It doesnt matter if you pay indirectly or directly. You are paying for it.



The chip as a whole isnt better because despite being released a year later than the A8X it loses in multi core



Exactly and for me. Anything less than 128GB storage at 1K is a ripoff especially now that the competition has set 64GB as the standard base storage.



You mean the iPhone is doing well.



Thanks to Samsung for messing up the Note 7. My money is on an iPhone super cycle this year and the next ad its back to the decline after that




If Tim Cook can say the iPad Pro is a PC replacement than the Surface obviously is


Its nothing personal. When you use Windows with care and a degree of common sense,you dont get infected. While you are installing look out for crap ware being installed. Dont download torrents. USe Scriptmonkey addon. Dont visit websites you shouldnt. Run a Malwarebytes scan once in a while. These are basics and no novice follows them. I have seen infected computers with tons of toolbars,crap ware multiple free antiviruses installed. The problem is not Windows but PEBKAC.

Microsoft has sorted this out somehwhat in creators update by offering an option to not allow installing anything outside their store



I agree iPad is doing well,just not as well back in 2011



I want the best screen and the largest screen when I pay more than 700 because I am nearly paying as much as a mid range laptop. The iPad Pro 9.7 in addition to True Tone has DCI P3 wide color support.



The performance may be average but you can do the task at hand. On an mobile app you cant do that task at all. Which option is better? I have an option of running Battlefield 3 at 30 fps on a Surface or not at all on an iPad. Which is better?





So a jack of all trades master of none. But you can do anything you want


I agree. The Mac or Windows is not going away. Heck I cant even make apps for iOS without owning a Mac




The iPad Pro 12.9 needs a replacement and should be put out to pasture. How come a more expensive tablet is being sold with an inferior display




Certain geekbench scores had the A8X actually beating the A9. We can round off these small victories as errors. The A9 is better but it is not as better as the A10 was over the A9


Its better than an enlarged iPhone

[/QUOTE]
[doublepost=1491760239][/doublepost]
All this is interesting to read but if I tried replacing a Surface with an iPad Pro for work I would be fired within a day[/QUOTE]

It depends on what you are using it for. I am a partner in an advisor firm. I am not crunching out code or writing audit reports. I use the iPad as an extension of my main desktop at work as opposed to a laptop. I can do email, tend or host Skype meetings on my iPad pro. I do all my note taking on my iPad. I can review documents from my managers and teams using MS Office on my iPad. I even do my timesheet (Deltek) and my expense reports and travel booking on my iPad using our enterprise Concur system (iOS App). If I can take my notes during a meeting on an iPad (that syncs automatically to my desktop) and review documents and provide comments on my iPad, draft account strategies in PowerPoint and notes and then hold meetings on my iPad. Then do my administrative stuff - timesheet, travel booking, and expense reports - that is a lot of productivity in something that can easily convert to reading a book (or industry articles),, watch a movie or tv show and call my wife and kids on. When I go on the road - I don't bring my laptop of a diary/portfolio. I bring my iPad and it consolidates a lot of items in my shoulder bag.

As of now it wouldn't replace my entire desktop. Yet. My point was as a tablet - the iPad is the most productive tablet out there and still beats everything in the mobility space. There MS Surface is as functional as a desktop = but is not a mobility based system. As such---- it will be harder and harder to squeeze software written for the desktop into a truly mobile tablet platform. In contrast - the power and capability of the Apple tablet architecture and will increase functionality and software power over time. I would argue there has been huge strides this area on iOS over the past three years. Likewise - Applications of iOS that focus on the capabilities of a tablet (something to draw on or touch environment for design) then I would argue the iPad is better than the surface in those types of applications.

The iPad isn't there yet - but its getting there as Apple develops their A series processors, their own GPU and can pack more memory and storage into an iPad.

 

[I7guy]

So now Macs catch viruses?

Yes they do.

Its the most popular tablet but the popularity is declining

No it's still the most sold and should be even more popular with the release of the ipad.

A weaker Windows machine than the iPad Pro 12.9 can do more than it

Only if battery life, bulk and heat isn't a concern.

Good. You agree iPad has the same tradeoffs

I don't agree. The ipads tradeoff are diminishing faster than the surface jpros.

Its not.

https://twohonestguys.co/tech/apple-pencil-vs-surface-pro-pen-4-which-is-best/

In my opinion, it is.

When I pay over 700 for a tablet it has to be the best in every area. When I paid for a GTX 1080ti I wanted the best performance. When I pay for an XPS 13 I want the best ultrabook on the market. I dont accept compromises when I pay top dollars

Than don't buy the tablet, if there are any tradeoffs. I compromised severely for portability with the sp4.

It does only one thing better and thats consumption and its not that Surface isnt good at it, its slightly more frustarting to use. In all other tasks it gets steamrolled

You are discussing a tablet that blows the sp4 out of the water in certain categories.

Its a part of the process to make the OS resilient and is never ending. Regardless they are not a replacement for an anti virus. I know people who use anti viruses on XP ever since Microsoft killed support for it

Then why does Microsoft call it security patches to patch zero-day vulnerabilities?

ARM chips will run Windows in the future but its going to take time. But at least they are trying something new instead of making their tablets thinner and recycling old tablets

ARM chips won't run real windows. It will be windows lite.

The article was brought in by you as if it was a counter to my point when it didnt mention anything relevant regarding what I said

Right based on what you said. I proved you wrong with this article.

And even thats pathetic. Why should their $800 flagship tablet have the same bettery life as a $320 tablet? Does the iPhone 7 Plus have the same battery life as a 7?

Because apple advertises 10 hours for it's tablets. You can elect to go to a competitor if you don't like the battery life.

It was. Even the iPhone will inevitably drop in sales by 2050 or so and we will have people blaming Steve for not seeing 50 years in the future instead of blaming the guy paid to run the show

In 2050 we might all be around to stop sprewing this idiotic nonsense.

Looked at it. Didnt see any relevance to the article

The entire article is relevant.

It doesnt matter if you pay indirectly or directly. You are paying for it.

No, the price is the price, different than MSRP.

The chip as a whole isnt better because despite being released a year later than the A8X it loses in multi core

The chip is better.

Exactly and for me. Anything less than 128GB storage at 1K is a ripoff especially now that the competition has set 64GB as the standard base storage.

Again, you get what you want. I don't dictate your needs, or budget.

You mean the iPhone is doing well.

No, apple is doing well.

Thanks to Samsung for messing up the Note 7. My money is on an iPhone super cycle this year and the next ad its back to the decline after that

Since we're into futures, Samsung may be out of business. I mean anything could happen.

If Tim Cook can say the iPad Pro is a PC replacement than the Surface obviously is

My aunt thinks it is and she has an ipad and iphone. Based on your requirements, it could be a pc replacement.

Its nothing personal. When you use Windows with care and a degree of common sense,you dont get infected. While you are installing look out for crap ware being installed. Dont download torrents. USe Scriptmonkey addon. Dont visit websites you shouldnt. Run a Malwarebytes scan once in a while. These are basics and no novice follows them. I have seen infected computers with tons of toolbars,crap ware multiple free antiviruses installed. The problem is not Windows but PEBKAC.

No the problem is how easily windows gets infected.

I want the best screen and the largest screen when I pay more than 700 because I am nearly paying as much as a mid range laptop. The iPad Pro 9.7 in addition to True Tone has DCI P3 wide color support.

Again, make your choice and get what your want. If nothing appeals to you move to the competition.

The performance may be average but you can do the task at hand. On an mobile app you cant do that task at all. Which option is better? I have an option of running Battlefield 3 at 30 fps on a Surface or not at all on an iPad. Which is better?

I'd rather have an ipad and do what I need to do with decent battery life.

So a jack of all trades master of none. But you can do anything you want

Are we discussing the sp4 here?

The iPad Pro 12.9 needs a replacement and should be put out to pasture. How come a more expensive tablet is being sold with an inferior display

It's selling, ask apple why.

Certain geekbench scores had the A8X actually beating the A9. We can round off these small victories as errors. The A9 is better but it is not as better as the A10 was over the A9

Single core wins, which is most of what goes on in ones workflow.

All this is interesting to read but if I tried replacing a Surface with an iPad Pro for work I would be fired within a day

I could get to any system I needed with an ipad pro. I don't even need a sp4. (but sometimes it's just easier to do things locally)

 

[6foot5foot]

The other day while I was using my MacBook the scrolling stuck and I had to force restart my Mac. Windows 10 is not bug free but no software in the world is. And judging by your screenshot so,e system file has been corrupted. Try running the SFC /scannow command. That's not a Windows 10 bug

Nice try. It's NOTHING to do with system file repair, and EVERYTHING to do with institutional Redmond incompetence. I've updated and repaired more computers, hard drives, TVs, smartphones, brick phones, military equipment etc than I can count, in 25 years. This is NOT a system file issue - NOT, but nice deflection

 

[spinedoc77]

I think it is just a bad understanding of what Apple do with the iPad. If Apple believe the iPad is the future, they will stop making macs. It is not the case. Just like cars have not replaced trucks.

Exactly my point. Although I disagree with most of your post, this one part I certainly agree with. Keep in mind that Apple themselves invented the "post PC" nonsense as if iOS was the future of PC's.

It's interesting to note the differences in CEO's thoughts on the ipad. Jobs said: "had to find its place between the iPhone and the Mac.” While Cook in 2015 said: "The iPad is the clearest expression of our vision of the future of personal computing.” To me these are markedly different. Jobs understood what the ipad was. It was an accessory device, a dumbed down OS because that was the only way to get a computing device on something as elegant, thin, light and have such good battery life as the ipad has. Jobs statement even seems like he gives his consumers a straight answer, yes he wants you to buy multiple devices, hey I can respect that.
[doublepost=1491794709][/doublepost]

which makes a poor tablet and poor laptop.

My SP4 is the best damn tablet I've ever owned, it's not even close IMO.
[doublepost=1491794945][/doublepost]

Why do you say the Surface pro works as a laptop when its lappability is so poor ?
And you forgot the Surface (3), which is largely discussed here, is a deprecated device, ran on ATOM chip, and was the only one in the surface product line to have good battery life and LTE.

Why is its lapability so poor? Just having the touchscreen alone catapults it into being a MUCH better LAPtop IMO. Instead of constantly having my wrist contorted into a RSI inducing position all day long I can simply use the touchscreen. It works much more nicely for those times when your laptop if very close to you for the same reasons, like a cramped airplane seat or using it on a breakfast bar, for example.

 

[Radon87000]

Yes they do.

No they don't. They only get infected if you were trying to infect them

o it's still the most sold and should be even more popular with the release of the ipad.

This iPad is nothing new. When cheaper tablets than the iPad failed this isn't going to hot the decline

Only if battery life, bulk and heat isn't a concern.

The fact that even with a desktop OS running limitless tasks in the background powered by an i7 processor is able to maintain just an hour less than the iPad is a testament to Microsoft's optimisation

The weight of the Surface pro is only 69grams less than the iPad Pro which is unnoticeable

don't agree. The ipads tradeoff are diminishing faster than the surface jpros.

What diminish? The Pro lineup hasn't been updated for over a year and both tablets have tradeoffs. The new iPad is entirely a compromise for Air 2 owners.

In my opinion, it is.

Your opinion counts as much as the blog I posted. I can post reviews of tons of people who found the Surface stylus better than Apple. The battery life alone blows it out of the water

The Pencil was created as a reaction to the Surface Pen

Than don't buy the tablet, if there are any tradeoffs. I compromised severely for portability with the sp4.

I didn't buy the 12.9

And I compromised severely by getting an inferior iPad Pro

You are discussing a tablet that blows the sp4 out of the water in certain categories.

The Surface Pro 4 demolishes the iPad in productivity which is what counts. If I went to work without a file system I would be handed a pink slip the very next day

Then why does Microsoft call it security patches to patch zero-day vulnerabilities?

In case you didn't know antiviruses already protect against these vulnerabilities faster than Microsoft can roll out security patches. Microsoft issuing patches is no different than an antivirus getting signature updates

ARM chips won't run real windows. It will be windows lite.

Microsoft will make it happen. I suggest you go over to Windows Central where the just wrote a recent article on how they are making it happen

Windows Lite has already been created. Windows RT failed an Microsoft trashed it. The Surface RT was a failure

Right based on what you said. I proved you wrong with this article.

Stop putting words in mouth. I was never talking about 2005 hardware

Because apple advertises 10 hours for it's tablets. You can elect to go to a competitor if you don't like the battery life.

So Apple's iPads also involve a battery life compromise

In 2050 we might all be around to stop sprewing this idiotic nonsense.

That's what you were saying. If Steve is responsible for iPad's decline 6 years down the line he should also be responsible for iPhone decline maybe 20 years down the line

The entire article is relevant.

It's not

No, the price is the price, different than MSRP.

The price is the consideration you pay in cash or in kind which is not 0. You pay for it indirectly. In fact not even the unlocked models price on Apple's site is the price. The price does not include taxes

The chip is better.

Half winner half loser. Seems net result-no clear winner

No, apple is doing well.

No the iPhone is doing well. Every other piece of hardware is stagnant

Since we're into futures, Samsung may be out of business. I mean anything could happen.

Sure but we aren't blaming Samsung's founder for things he didn't do

My aunt thinks it is and she has an ipad and iphone. Based on your requirements, it could be a pc replacement.

Unless the iPad can download my custom file formats it will never replace my laptop.

No the problem is how easily windows gets infected.

Windows gets infected if you try to infect it.

Again, make your choice and get what your want. If nothing appeals to you move to the competition.

I made my choice but it was a compromised iPad. I am still waiting for over 4 years for that OLED 10.5 iPad to come out of Tim's pipeline

I'd rather have an ipad and do what I need to do with decent battery life.

I rather have a tablet which at least doesn't treat me like a kid and allow me to set default file formats. Allow me to download whatever I want and gives me full control over The is

Are we discussing the sp4 here?

Yes

It's selling, ask apple why.

Its sales are declining. Apple has no answer on why they are declining

Single core wins, which is most of what goes on in ones workflow.

So it loses in multi threaded applications. Seems similar to Ryzen vs Kabylake

could get to any system I needed with an ipad pro. I don't even need a sp4. (but sometimes it's just easier to do things locally)

The Surface works with my legacy applications
The Surface works with printers from 2005
The Surface works with custom file formats
The Surface can be hacked to run the latest version of Windows 8 years down the line while the iPad will discontinued in a few years

 

[kis]

The Surface Pro is a great device but it's not really used as a tablet by most. I see people using them all the time and have probably never seen anyone using it without the keyboard. It's basically a laptop replacement for most.

That may be true - but the fact is that most people don't really need a tablet. With the Surface Pro, you get a decent laptop and for the few occasions you actually want a tablet, it can be that as well.

 

[I7guy]

No they don't. They only get infected if you were trying to infect them

Sure they do, there are clearly attack vectors for them.

This iPad is nothing new. When cheaper tablets than the iPad failed this isn't going to hot the decline

It doesn't have to be new. It's an entry level at an attractive price that will attract new and returning apple customers and sales will increase similar to the SE.

The fact that even with a desktop OS running limitless tasks in the background powered by an i7 processor is able to maintain just an hour less than the iPad is a testament to Microsoft's optimisation

The weight of the Surface pro is only 69grams less than the iPad Pro which is unnoticeable

It's not an hour less, it's 50% less in real world usage.

What diminish? The Pro lineup hasn't been updated for over a year and both tablets have tradeoffs. The new iPad is entirely a compromise for Air 2 owners.

Trade-offs with the ipads are less than the sp4, which has issues with bulk, battery life and heat. The one plus portability.

Your opinion counts as much as the blog I posted. I can post reviews of tons of people who found the Surface stylus better than Apple. The battery life alone blows it out of the water

The Pencil was created as a reaction to the Surface Pen

Since I own the sp4, I'd say my opinion counts just as much. The ipad pro pencil is just so much better. I don't even use the sp4 pencil because it's not that good.

I didn't buy the 12.9

And I compromised severely by getting an inferior iPad Pro

There are always compromises to be had, just less with ipads, imo.

The Surface Pro 4 demolishes the iPad in productivity which is what counts. If I went to work without a file system I would be handed a pink slip the very next day

It depends on what your workflow is. A professional artist might not say that. A dot net developer maybe. My aunt doesn't need windows, an ipad is fine for her.

In case you didn't know antiviruses already protect against these vulnerabilities faster than Microsoft can roll out security patches. Microsoft issuing patches is no different than an antivirus getting signature updates

Not really, zero day vulnerabilities are Microsofts worst nightmare.

Microsoft will make it happen. I suggest you go over to Windows Central where the just wrote a recent article on how they are making it happen

Windows Lite has already been created. Windows RT failed an Microsoft trashed it. The Surface RT was a failure

We'll have to wait and see.

Stop putting words in mouth. I was never talking about 2005 hardware

You brought the whole thing up, I just proved you were wrong.

So Apple's iPads also involve a battery life compromise

If they do, much less than the SP4.

That's what you were saying. If Steve is responsible for iPad's decline 6 years down the line he should also be responsible for iPhone decline maybe 20 years down the line

Can't have it both ways.

It's not

It certainly is.

The price is the consideration you pay in cash or in kind which is not 0. You pay for it indirectly. In fact not even the unlocked models price on Apple's site is the price. The price does not include taxes

Does the air 2 sell for that price 24x7x365? If not, it's a sale price, whatever you payed is the price.

Half winner half loser. Seems net result-no clear winner

No the chip is better and more power efficient.

No the iPhone is doing well. Every other piece of hardware is stagnant

Apple is doing well, seen the stock price recently? Last quarters earnings? Apple is doing well in spite of the doom and gloom.

Sure but we aren't blaming Samsung's founder for things he didn't do

Right, he's just in jail.

Unless the iPad can download my custom file formats it will never replace my laptop.

I'm waiting until my sp4 gets 10 hours of battery life watching netflix downloaded movies.

Windows gets infected if you try to infect it.

Hyperbole. It doesn't take much to infect windows from all of the vectors of attack.

I made my choice but it was a compromised iPad. I am still waiting for over 4 years for that OLED 10.5 iPad to come out of Tim's pipeline

Maybe they didn't want to deal with burn-in and other oled issues. I don't know, I'm not in the inner circle.

I rather have a tablet which at least doesn't treat me like a kid and allow me to set default file formats. Allow me to download whatever I want and gives me full control over The is

I need a tablet that goes the distance with decent battery life and can accomplish what I need.

Yes

It's hard to tell.

Its sales are declining. Apple has no answer on why they are declining

What will you say when sales start picking up due to the entry level ipad?

So it loses in multi threaded applications. Seems similar to Ryzen vs Kabylake

That's because the ios on the ipad is tuned properly for good battery life.

The Surface works with my legacy applications
The Surface works with printers from 2005
The Surface works with custom file formats
The Surface can be hacked to run the latest version of Windows 8 years down the line while the iPad will discontinued in a few years

I don't need support on my sp4 for legacy applications, just one or two in case the internet goes down. The remote desktop on my ipad works very well for my needs and the battery life fantastic vs the 4 hours on my sp4 (in battery saving mode)

 

[kis]

Surface is running a desktop operating system so this is an apples to oranges comparison. I'd love to see a survey gauging the desirability of a Surface vs a MacBook 12".

There have been plenty of those and the 12" Macbook doesn't fare too well. It's underpowered and has a terrible keyboard. The Surface Pro 4 sports an i5 processor (not the slower mobile version), a slightly bigger screen, a better screen resolution, a touch screen, has the option of a fingerprint sensor (depending on the keyboard you choose), facial recognition for log in, a dedicated charging port, a dedicated mini display port, a micro SD card slot, is even thinner and costs less.

Now the newer 13" MBPs might be a different story, but those aren't in the same price- and portability range.

 

[moxin]

i am not surprised at all

 

[maflynn]

I don't need support on my sp4 for legacy applications, just one or two in case the internet goes down. The remote desktop on my ipad works very well for my needs and the battery life fantastic vs the 4 hours on my sp4 (in battery saving mode)

I think you misquoted me, I was answering a question on the models of surface, and you respond to my quote with SP4 and support of legacy apps - not sure what your point is