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Apple is fully able to throw a few billions at a new product, but as you said, the market would freak, because of its history. And its not about complex products, but the market they are in. The Xbox is in a market where competitors undercut prices and forfeit profits in order to sell more. That's a unique ability of a company to be able to be able to sustain a product until the point that it becomes profitable, so what's wrong with using it? If anything, it allows some freedom of thought when development comes around. I'm sure Microsoft could have thrown out a basic console without a hard drive and without online capabilities and made a small profit but that's not they had in mind.

I think you're right, but why really would the markets freak if Apple sunk billions into a money-losing product but not Microsoft? I think this derives from expectations -- high ones for Apple, and low ones for Microsoft. Apple has to hit a home run every time they come to the plate or be written off immediately as a failure. Microsoft bunts and everybody cheers. Some things never change.

Well, you have to start some where and I'd say Microsoft is right on the ball. They are planning on releasing Windows 7 by the end of 2009/early 2010, Internet Explorer 8 is in beta, Windows Mobile 7 looks promising, and is supposedly coming 2009/2010. The Xbox is getting a major rehaul of its interface soon, and there are plans for movies based on the Halo/Gears IP. Also, Microsoft keeps addressing "Zune" as a brand, so we may very well be seeing something soon.

Well, you might be the last person on Earth who believes that Windows 7 is going to arrive when Microsoft says it will. Or anything else for that matter.

Speaking of Zune, you do know it's little more than a repackaged Toshiba Gigabeat? And how much of the market have they managed to capture with this product, maybe four percent? Great product, very original, wonderful results.
 
Speaking of Zune, you do know it's little more than a repackaged Toshiba Gigabeat? And how much of the market have they managed to capture with this product, maybe four percent? Great product, very original, wonderful results.

For factual accuracy the 1st generation was exactly that — a repackaged Toshiba model. The 2nd generation Zune is a Microsoft in house design.
 
Well, you have to start some where and I'd say Microsoft is right on the ball. They are planning on releasing Windows 7 by the end of 2009/early 2010, Internet Explorer 8 is in beta, Windows Mobile 7 looks promising, and is supposedly coming 2009/2010. The Xbox is getting a major rehaul of its interface soon, and there are plans for movies based on the Halo/Gears IP. Also, Microsoft keeps addressing "Zune" as a brand, so we may very well be seeing something soon.
Microsoft hitting release dates would be nice for a change. ;)

Well, you might be the last person on Earth who believes that Windows 7 is going to arrive when Microsoft says it will. Or anything else for that matter.
:D

Apple has been very successful with OS X (Overall) and their release dates. Mac OS X was a newly designed OS from the ground up. Compared to OS 9, it provide a good foundation from which to improve upon. As much as I liked OS 9 and prior, it was becoming a patchwork -- and some would say, less stable OS.

Microsoft has yet to newly design their Windows OS. Vista (Longhorn) was to be that. However, it did not come to fruition. We'll see how Windows 7 ends up. Not holding my breath.
 
Microsoft has yet to newly design their Windows OS. Vista (Longhorn) was to be that. However, it did not come to fruition. We'll see how Windows 7 ends up. Not holding my breath.

Might be worth a try. How long can you hold your breath? They say it's impossible to suffocate that way.

Do you remember how Apple was lambasted when the shipping date for Leopard slipped a few months? You'd think the sky was falling. The stock plummeted on the announcement and around here -- the wailing and moaning! Microsoft plans for three years, takes five, deletes the most significant features, and a collective yawn goes up.

Different expectations. Way different.
 
I think you're right, but why really would the markets freak if Apple sunk billions into a money-losing product but not Microsoft? I think this derives from expectations -- high ones for Apple, and low ones for Microsoft. Apple has to hit a home run every time they come to the plate or be written off immediately as a failure. Microsoft bunts and everybody cheers. Some things never change.
Look at it this way. Microsoft's history has showed that the long-term investments pay off. Apple's? Not so much, considering its not too long ago Apple's performance was... lack luster.

Well, you might be the last person on Earth who believes that Windows 7 is going to arrive when Microsoft says it will. Or anything else for that matter.
So... What product has Microsoft ever launched "late" besides Vista?

Speaking of Zune, you do know it's little more than a repackaged Toshiba Gigabeat? And how much of the market have they managed to capture with this product, maybe four percent? Great product, very original, wonderful results.
As said, the first model was manufacturer by Toshiba.. The 2nd is not. Also, throwing around market share it not the best way to get your point across, considering Apple only has what? 4% in the OS market?
 
Might be worth a try. How long can you hold your breath? They say it's impossible to suffocate that way.

Do you remember how Apple was lambasted when the shipping date for Leopard slipped a few months? You'd think the sky was falling. The stock plummeted on the announcement and around here -- the wailing and moaning! Microsoft plans for three years, takes five, deletes the most significant features, and a collective yawn goes up.

Different expectations. Way different.
Hmm... Maybe because your on MacRumors.com? I doubt the general public went up in arms when Apple delayed Leopard. I bet it didn't even get a yawn.
 
Hmm... Maybe because your on MacRumors.com? I doubt the general public went up in arms when Apple delayed Leopard. I bet it didn't even get a yawn.

I do agree with this. Though many on here were up in arms, I didn't ever get any sense that the general public was ever up in arms about it

I am just speaking about my personal experience though. I just never saw any stories about it on TV nor had fellow Mac users state how angry they were about it.
 
Steve Ballmer, proving, once again, that he is the worst CEO in America.

He clearly has no idea how the margins compare in his software business vs Apple's hardware business. (hence getting into ZuneBox 360) nor that people like Apple because the software is not pure garbage, not because of the 'end to end' model.

i can only hope he remains MSFT CEO for a long time because this guy does nothing but destroy value.
 
Steve Ballmer, proving, once again, that he is the worst CEO in America.

He clearly has no idea how the margins compare in his software business vs Apple's hardware business. (hence getting into ZuneBox 360) nor that people like Apple because the software is not pure garbage, not because of the 'end to end' model.

i can only hope he remains MSFT CEO for a long time because this guy does nothing but destroy value.
No, your the one who doesn't understand. People don't like Apple because they make good software (Most people only know of iTunes). People like Apple because they provide complete experiences, an easy interface, and yes, the "end-to-end" model. They like that Mac OS X is so well tuned to work with their Mac and when things go wrong, there's only 1 place look for help. They like the integration Apple products give them. I'd say he's right on the mark.

speaking of which, nice earnings yield on the now failed (maybe?) yahoo deal. ha.
And what is this supposed to say?
 
Providential is an excellent word, very suitable.

Consider that Gates & Co. had no real role in creating the opportunity to sell DOS to the makers of PC clones. There's no evidence that they anticipated that IBM would lose control of the PC hardware platform and planned accordingly. The thing was just dropped into their laps, really. Did they exploit the opportunity? Yes, but it would have been hard not to. I look at what they were successful in doing after that, and it wasn't a lot. How many times has Apple reinvented itself since then?



Right, but again -- once the PC was cloned, what other market opportunities did Microsoft have for selling DOS but directly to the cloners? I suppose they could have gone into the hardware business and competed with them, but to what end?

The main point I'm making here is that there really aren't two, equally useful production models out there, "component" and "end-to-end." The former has little applicability outside of very special and limited circumstances, and the later is how virtually all products come to the market. If Microsoft can't become competent at end-to-end development, they will gradually but steadily diminish in influence. They're not going to get another opportunity to duplicate the model that made their OS business. The fact that they are only now starting to figure this out tells us quite a bit about the mindset of their management.

If the component model was a fluke and has little applicability, then why didn't Microsoft fail? Were other companies somehow forced not to all come out with their own end-to-end computers, making both the operating system and the hardware, at the time?

The truth is that they tried, but they weren't successful, because of the market's demand (ie, not a fluke).

Essentially, consumers/businesses liked having hardware choice, but wanted to use already existing software, so they bought hardware that was compatible with the software that they wanted or needed to use for whatever reason (compatibility with other computers being one important reason). This made the "component model" work - hardware manufacturers separate from operating system manufacturers, because hardware needs were different.

Look at Intel and AMD. Why do these two companies exist, making their own components for a computer? Because they push out different products, and there are consumers/businesses who decide buy a specific Intel product for whatever reasons, and consumers/businesses that decide to buy a specific AMD product for whatever different reasons. The distinction is even more clear for VIA and their low-cost processors. The same goes for nVidia and ATi. These two companies/divisions exist and make enough money to stay in business because there are people that buy their products. Obviously, hardware choice is a fundamental part of both the past and current idea of a personal computer.

But operating system needs didn't have to be different. Sure, people needed different software, but that doesn't mean software developers each should have had to make their own operating system for their software - building upon Microsoft's operating system was fine, and in my opinion a blessing for the young personal computer industry. As a prosumer, I really appreciated, ten years ago, the compatibility of (almost) everyone using the same operating system, and I'm sure many software developers appreciated developing for one operating system that reached the vast majority of the growing, not yet mature market.

I think what's changed now is the maturity of the market. So I am not claiming that Microsoft can do this same model now - I just don't think it was some sort of market fluke that their business model succeeded, though I do agree that they were lucky being in the right place at the right time, even if, in my opinion, that certainly doesn't account for all of their success.

This is more off-topic, but, I am an OS X user now and I love it far more than Windows (and I have used Windows for a long time, and I would say that I can use it very, very, capably). For me, it's not about compatibility problems anymore in today's tech world, since those don't pose much of a problem for me (I triple boot OS X, openSUSE 11, and Vista on my MBP, and solving issues in OS X is nowhere near as involved as solving issues in openSUSE, most of the time).

OS X simply offers a better user experience for many people, from basic users to power users, and I, along with many others, don't mind paying for Apple's hardware+operating system solution, especially since the hardware has nice features of its own as well.

For me, I switched mostly because of better compatibility with (better) hardware (vs Linux and vs Windows), a better design philosophy (vs Windows, which doesn't seem to have much of one) - ex, I love the workflow/task management in OS X and software that builds on it, with expose, F10/F11, spaces, what minimize means, what maximize means, more used modifier keys (ctrl, option, and command), quicksilver, textmate, omnigraffle, etc, etc.

Sure, openSUSE (for example) can do many of the same things, like expose and virtual desktops and so on, but it must be configured extensively (Apple seems to make the intelligent decisions for me, the vast majority of the time), and its far less polished, which is undeniable (only reason why I have it installed is because of KDE4, which looks promising, like a possible glimpse into the future of operating systems - bleeding edge stuff).

Sorry for that bit of off-topicness, but I think it helps show how the PC market has evolved, with the differences in the demands of previous eras and the demands of now, at least in my personal experience.
 
Really. Practically everything is made of pieces, but that's missing the point. Since the operating system of a computer is not just a piece, but defines its function, a better question would be: How many car manufacturers license their car designs to other manufacturers?

In the technology business, we've found that the component model, as it is has been defined here, really doesn't work. It worked in Microsoft's case because of an historical fluke, a set of events which are not going to be replicated. Even Microsoft can't seem to manage it, and they've had more experience than anyone. That's the take-away lesson here.

It may have been a set of events which are not going to be replicated (as the PC market seems to have matured beyond the point of consumers wanting to all use the same operating system), but that doesn't mean the component model doesn't work in the technology business as a whole. You can argue that it's just a question of definition, but I think overall, the "component model" has its uses in the technology business.

The basic concept of the component model is, from the "Microsoft" point of view, to sell Product X to be bundled with another product as a solution, that consumers/businesses will buy knowing that Product X is part of that solution, basing their purchase passively or actively on that fact or assumption.

An example of this component model is the constant marketing mention of the use of Carl-Zeiss lens in cell-phones or cameras, as an indication of high quality. Both the Carl-Zeiss brand and the cell-phone/camera brand are pushed to the consumer as part of the solution. This business model works for Carl-Zeiss (they don't have to make the cameras), works for the cell-phone/camera manufacturers (they don't need to make lens), and works for the consumer (they can get a Sony cell-phone with a Carl-Zeiss lens), just as it works for Microsoft - the business can get a Dell computer with the Windows Server 2008 software they need for compatibility with previous purchases.

There is, of course, a crucial difference between caring about high quality and needing to purchase a product for compatibility with previous purchases. But this is not a failure of the component model. Apple's foray into the component model failed, as far as I know, mainly because their profitable operating system + hardware sales were cannibalized by less profitable operating system license sales, because they hardly brought in any new customers.

However, what if Apple was able to bring in new customers, and get 1 billion sales of their operating system? That would have been a success. They would have the volume required to keep developing their operating system. Yes, the end-to-end model lets them create a great user experience more easily, but they essentially need to do that because they need to make more money per system sale, with a far lower volume of sales, especially compared to Microsoft.

If OS X ran on a non-Apple computer that provided the same functionality, except feature X, to a specific consumer as an Apple computer would, and cost $500 less, and feature X was only worth $100 to that specific consumer, then the availability of OS X on that non-Apple computer would be beneficial to that consumer, but not beneficial to Apple.

So, Apple's attempt at using a component model failed not because a component model just doesn't work, but because they didn't have the business to support that model.

I believe the component model can work again in the technology business, and that it is a mistake to write it off, missing possible opportunities in doing so. For example, look at the current battle between the Xbox 360 and the PS3, and how much money Microsoft and Sony are losing in that battle, trying to convince consumers to buy their console rather than the other (on top of convincing consumers to buy a next-gen console in the first place).

To do this, the two companies are doing lots of advertising and battling for exclusives. They are courting 3rd party developers not just for exclusives but also for making a game not exclusive. Microsoft spent about $50 million to get GTA IV on the 360 as well as the PS3, and who knows how much for Final Fantasy XIII.

The current, actual trend is that more and more games are becoming multiplatform, because 3rd party developers want access to more of the market. This also means that they have to develop for two very different platforms/architectures. All this results in lots of money lost, thrown around for exclusives and multiplatform access and developing and advertising... Sony and Microsoft are simply losing a lot of money that they need to earn back sometime, which points to at least lengthening how long each video game generation is.

Because of this, powerful voices in the industry are predicting a possible convergence in video game platforms, saying that maybe, it's not unlike the beginning of the PC industry where software exclusivity and incompatibility took a toll on profits and overall sales. Example:

Code:
http://www.bdgamers.net/2008/01/13/god-of-war-creator-wants-unified-platform.html

Sounds like a possible new component model to me, albeit not exactly the same as Microsoft's history's, of course. But then again, that would just be a question of definition. Presumably, the platform could be a unified operating system designed for game consoles, plus a variety of hardware configs (like one base system that costs $400, for most consumers, and an "elite" system that has a better cpu, more ram, a better graphics card, 802.11n that costs $800, for enthusiasts, that would play the same games with more graphics detail, but still wouldn't be open to upgrades like a PC is). That would just be like a 30" 720p tv for $300 vs a 50" 1080p tv for $2000 - different quality, but pretty much the same content, depending on who you ask.

Or it could be a single "operating system" + hardware solution (making it an end-to-end model instead).

But I'd say that the possibility is there.
 
Look at it this way. Microsoft's history has showed that the long-term investments pay off. Apple's? Not so much, considering its not too long ago Apple's performance was... lack luster.

Not all, not by a long shot. During the '90s they were buying up cable investments left and right at highly inflated prices. They probably took a real drubbing on those. Ands what about WebTV? I doubt they ever saw a return on that investment. All just off the top of my head.

So... What product has Microsoft ever launched "late" besides Vista?

Oh my, where to begin? Do you know why Windows95 came to be called Windows95? Because it was so late that Bill Gates decided on the name so it would actually have to ship in 1995. Again, just one example off the top of my head.

Hmm... Maybe because your on MacRumors.com? I doubt the general public went up in arms when Apple delayed Leopard. I bet it didn't even get a yawn.

Well I did say that the stock took a big dive when the news was announced, which is true.

Different expectations.
 
It may have been a set of events which are not going to be replicated (as the PC market seems to have matured beyond the point of consumers wanting to all use the same operating system), but that doesn't mean the component model doesn't work in the technology business as a whole. You can argue that it's just a question of definition, but I think overall, the "component model" has its uses in the technology business.

I've argued that it doesn't really work, because it hasn't, except in the unique circumstances presented to Microsoft. Please don't forget that IBM lost hugely in this deal, and in a way they never intended. So to make one big winner required one big loser. I've already mentioned several other examples of where it has failed, and pointed out that Microsoft also seems to be coming to the recognize the limits of the component model and are not only building more end-to-end products now, but they are trying to duplicate the consumer experience of end-to-end product development with their component products (which I believe is going to prove all but impossible). So honestly I believe the vote is all in on this issue.

Of course Apple couldn't come up with a business model for OS licensing -- because none existed.
 
I've argued that it doesn't really work, because it hasn't, except in the unique circumstances presented to Microsoft. Please don't forget that IBM lost hugely in this deal, and in a way they never intended. So to make one big winner required one big loser. I've already mentioned several other examples of where it has failed, and pointed out that Microsoft also seems to be coming to the recognize the limits of the component model and are not only building more end-to-end products now, but they are trying to duplicate the consumer experience of end-to-end product development with their component products (which I believe is going to prove all but impossible). So honestly I believe the vote is all in on this issue.

Of course Apple couldn't come up with a business model for OS licensing -- because none existed.

To be fair you have to specify that the component model doesn't work for software. Even more specific would be operating systems. For hardware it works quite well. Notice how pretty much everyone runs Intel on consumer systems. Intel doesn't make an OS at all.
 
To be fair you have to specify that the component model doesn't work for software. Even more specific would be operating systems. For hardware it works quite well. Notice how pretty much everyone runs Intel on consumer systems. Intel doesn't make an OS at all.

Sure, if you become overly broad with the definition of the component model then you can pose meaningless analogies, like cars and tires. If that analogy is acceptable, then you can start calling products like the iPod a component model product because Apple doesn't make all the parts inside (and also jobs out the entire assembly process to other companies in China). I hope it was obvious that the distinction between these models is design and function. The Mac, the iPod and the iPhone are end-to-end products because Apple designs them fully. They control the functionality. The PC makers manufacture the hardware, but Microsoft designs their function.
 
Sure, if you become overly broad with the definition of the component model then you can pose meaningless analogies, like cars and tires. If that analogy is acceptable, then you can start calling products like the iPod a component model product because Apple doesn't make all the parts inside (and also jobs out the entire assembly process to other companies in China). I hope it was obvious that the distinction between these models is design and function. The Mac, the iPod and the iPhone are end-to-end products because Apple designs them fully. They control the functionality. The PC makers manufacture the hardware, but Microsoft designs their function.

Well it just seemed like you were saying the component model didn't work, full stop. I was just pointing out that even Apple subscribes to that same model to some degree, wrt Intel CPUs, chipsets, and GPUs.
 
Well it just seemed like you were saying the component model didn't work, full stop. I was just pointing out that even Apple subscribes to that same model to some degree, wrt Intel CPUs, chipsets, and GPUs.

Others argued that the component model analogy could be extended to just about every product made, but I never did. In fact I argued against it. It's been a long, long thread. ;)
 
Others argued that the component model analogy could be extended to just about every product made, but I never did. In fact I argued against it. It's been a long, long thread. ;)

Ah, okay. Cool. yeah I saw some "heated" conversation. Sadly my poor eyes started to glaze over so I probably missed that distinction. :eek:

Thank you guys for the interesting read (for what didn't make my eyes glaze over).
 
Sure, if you become overly broad with the definition of the component model then you can pose meaningless analogies, like cars and tires. If that analogy is acceptable, then you can start calling products like the iPod a component model product because Apple doesn't make all the parts inside (and also jobs out the entire assembly process to other companies in China). I hope it was obvious that the distinction between these models is design and function. The Mac, the iPod and the iPhone are end-to-end products because Apple designs them fully. They control the functionality. The PC makers manufacture the hardware, but Microsoft designs their function.
Except that Apple markets those "pieces" as 1 product, which the design is all done by Apple. Tire makers like Goodyear have no connection with Toyota, and other car manufacturers. You get what I'm saying?
 
Not all, not by a long shot. During the '90s they were buying up cable investments left and right at highly inflated prices. They probably took a real drubbing on those. Ands what about WebTV? I doubt they ever saw a return on that investment. All just off the top of my head.
I'm talking investments in actual products, not acquisitions and cable investments. And just off the top of your head? Impressive. :p

Oh my, where to begin? Do you know why Windows95 came to be called Windows95? Because it was so late that Bill Gates decided on the name so it would actually have to ship in 1995. Again, just one example off the top of my head.
And was Windows 95 ever slated to be available before 1995?

Well I did say that the stock took a big dive when the news was announced, which is true.

Different expectations.
Oh, you mean the $1.75 decrease in their stock price? Besides, Apple's stock goes wild after any rumor about a product. So, yes, Apple's investors have different expectations for Apple than Microsoft's investors have about Microsoft.
 
Except that Apple markets those "pieces" as 1 product, which the design is all done by Apple. Tire makers like Goodyear have no connection with Toyota, and other car manufacturers. You get what I'm saying?

Yes, but it's off point as far as I am concerned. I believe I've already explained why.

I'm talking investments in actual products, not acquisitions and cable investments. And just off the top of your head? Impressive. :p

I'm talking about what I am talking about. For a long time, Microsoft has used the "bet every horse" strategy, which takes the form of throwing money at a wide variety of initiatives in the hopes that one will pay off. The cable investments were supposed to dovetail into their broadband strategy, which included WebTV and MSN. It flopped.

And was Windows 95 ever slated to be available before 1995?

Oh yes, by quite a lot. It was originally announced to come out in 1994. As I mentioned above, the name Windows 95 was applied by Gates as a way of making sure it shipped in 1995. And the Windows 98 release was delayed also. It was originally due to ship in 1997.

Oh, you mean the $1.75 decrease in their stock price? Besides, Apple's stock goes wild after any rumor about a product. So, yes, Apple's investors have different expectations for Apple than Microsoft's investors have about Microsoft.

I don't know what it did that day, only that it introduced a down period that lasted a while and generated a bunch of bad press.
 
I'm talking about what I am talking about. For a long time, Microsoft has used the "bet every horse" strategy, which takes the form of throwing money at a wide variety of initiatives in the hopes that one will pay off. The cable investments were supposed to dovetail into their broadband strategy, which included WebTV and MSN. It flopped.
So, having the 7th most popular domain name, the 2nd most popular web email service, and being a partner in a major new station/website is a flop? Come on, you can dislike Microsoft but continuing to write off everything that didn't become another "Windows" as a flop or a failure is getting a little old.

Oh yes, by quite a lot. It was originally announced to come out in 1994. As I mentioned above, the name Windows 95 was applied by Gates as a way of making sure it shipped in 1995. And the Windows 98 release was delayed also. It was originally due to ship in 1997.
Fair enough. Microsoft's OS releases have been delayed quite a bit. But to their defense, OS releases can be fairly hard to estimate. Apple intelligently avoids this by withholding its release dates until only a few months/weeks before its launch.

I don't know what it did that day, only that it introduced a down period that lasted a while and generated a bunch of bad press.
That's fine, but it wasn't quite the "sky is falling" day you originally made it out to be.
 
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