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Just out of interest...

how does Microsoft's xbox 360 (including Live) business compare with Apple's entire computer business in terms of size and profit/revenue? I bet they're not that far out from each other which would put things in perspective a little
 
Just out of interest...

how does Microsoft's xbox 360 (including Live) business compare with Apple's entire computer business in terms of size and profit/revenue? I bet they're not that far out from each other which would put things in perspective a little

Considering Microsoft operated at a pretty significant loss for the first 6 years, the xbox does not fair well by comparison.
 
Blimey, common sense coming out of not just Microsoft, but Ballmer of all people. You know, that raving ape whose only obvious skill so far has been throwing chairs around and dealing with competition by swearing at it. (If he did achieve one thing, he managed to make me respect Gates more in hindsight. Reminds me of Brown taking over from Blair.)

Wonders will never cease :D Good luck to them, really. Apple could do with some decent competition to keep them on their toes.
 
I've never understood why they have so many versions.

XP wasn't that much different.

Must be a Microsoft thing. :)

XP had only the "Professional" and "Amateur" versions. I thought that was bad enough. Then to make matters worse, with Vista they created four versions, one of which doesn't even do the Aero GUI, one of the promised Vista features that actually made it into the final product. It really is a hopeless muddle, which Microsoft thinks they can solve with more marketing.
 
What this really comes down to is that Microsoft's success with the so-called "component model" was a fluke, an historical anomaly. It would be difficult to find another example of where it worked well for anyone else at any other time, including for Microsoft. They are just learning this it seems, having failed to implement it successfully in other markets. I think they're going to continue to struggle to get the same "seamless experience" out of the Windows PC market that Apple offers. They just don't have that sort of control over the OEMs -- in fact, they have less control today than they did just a few years ago. They're going to continue to jawbone the issue, but produce little. That's my prediction.

Not really. How many tire manufacturers develop their own cars? How many furniture manufacturers build their own houses? The list goes on.
Microsoft's error in my opinion was that they had no need to develop anything exceptional once they were at the top, due to the silly opinion of theirs that all markets could easily be dominated by them because of their size and name value.
They could easily have made tens of devisions that directly interacted with each mobile phone manufacturer world-wide to develop the ultimate OS tweaked, and in some cases re-developed, specifically for the hardware design that these companies each had in mind.
They were simply too naive.
 
Just out of interest...

how does Microsoft's xbox 360 (including Live) business compare with Apple's entire computer business in terms of size and profit/revenue? I bet they're not that far out from each other which would put things in perspective a little

The entire Entertainment & Devices Division posted revenues of $8.15 Billion for their fiscal year, but only profits of $426 million. Why? Arguably because of the Xbox 360, which is currently being sold at a loss (not uncommon). And then there's the $1.1 Billion charge to extend the warranties. Still, the Xbox 360 has no where to go but up, and the division has been posting profits for the last few quarters.

Apple, on the other hand, posted revenues of $17 Billion for only the first half of their fiscal year... LINK

Yeah, not much of a comparison... But there is a HUGE gap between Apple and Microsoft, which makes the oh-so-common comments of Apple "killing" Microsoft a little stupid.
 
Not really. How many tire manufacturers develop their own cars? How many furniture manufacturers build their own houses? The list goes on.

Really. Practically everything is made of pieces, but that's missing the point. Since the operating system of a computer is not just a piece, but defines its function, a better question would be: How many car manufacturers license their car designs to other manufacturers?

In the technology business, we've found that the component model, as it is has been defined here, really doesn't work. It worked in Microsoft's case because of an historical fluke, a set of events which are not going to be replicated. Even Microsoft can't seem to manage it, and they've had more experience than anyone. That's the take-away lesson here.
 
The entire Entertainment & Devices Division posted revenues of $8.15 Billion for their fiscal year, but only profits of $426 million. Why? Arguably because of the Xbox 360, which is currently being sold at a loss (not uncommon). And then there's the $1.1 Billion charge to extend the warranties. Still, the Xbox 360 has no where to go but up, and the division has been posting profits for the last few quarters.

The Xbox division is starting to post profits, but they've got a long way to go before they can overcome the huge sunk costs resulting from many years of losses. If you really want to make a comparison to Apple, you should compare the profitability of the iPod and the iPhone. Both of these products made money right away. Consider also that Microsoft loses money at just about everything they've ever done except for operating systems and software. Just imagine how the markets would react if Apple released a product that even they admitted would be unprofitable for the first five years.
 
Really. Practically everything is made of pieces, but that's missing the point. Since the operating system of a computer is not just a piece, but defines its function, a better question would be: How many car manufacturers license their car designs to other manufacturers?
I'm not understanding how that is different. Tires can be purchased separately from the car, from an entirely different entity than the Car manufacturer. Still, they are able to maintain a level of compatibility with your car.

In the technology business, we've found that the component model, as it is has been defined here, really doesn't work. It worked in Microsoft's case because of an historical fluke, a set of events which are not going to be replicated. Even Microsoft can't seem to manage it, and they've had more experience than anyone. That's the take-away lesson here.

Not true. Take a look at the Cell phone industry. Google is just set to release Android to all members in the OHA, but they aren't building their own hardware. Symbian is licensed to a number of phone manufacturers. Windows Mobile is the same.

In the TV industry, its not uncommon for TV manufacturers to buy the LCD panels (which directly dictate the screen's quality) from other companies. Sony, for example, purchases its panels from Sharp. Before that, they used Samsung's panels. At times, the only differentiating factor is the external design, and, of course, brand name.
 
The Xbox division is starting to post profits, but they've got a long way to go before they can overcome the huge sunk costs resulting from many years of losses. If you really want to make a comparison to Apple, you should compare the profitability of the iPod and the iPhone. Both of these products made money right away. Consider also that Microsoft loses money at just about everything they've ever done except for operating systems and software. Just imagine how the markets would react if Apple released a product that even they admitted would be unprofitable for the first five years.

Instead of comparing a game system to a mp3 player or phone, shouldn't we compare it to competitors in the game industry? It took Sony 13 months to post a profitable quarter with the PS3. Its saw quarters where it loss nearly a $1 billion even with the success of the PS2 and PSP. To this day, Sony has loss more than $3 billion on the PS3 LINK LINK2

The Xbox is a tremendous success for Microsoft, and apparently Microsoft saw it worthwhile to continue to pour money into it. Just now are they starting to be rewarded.
 
I'm not understanding how that is different. Tires can be purchased separately from the car, from an entirely different entity than the Car manufacturer. Still, they are able to maintain a level of compatibility with your car.

We can get a little crazy with analogies. The proprietary item you are buying is the car. The car maker may buy other proprietary parts to make that car, just as a consumer electronic company buys proprietary parts to make their products. But you are still buying the end product.

Not true. Take a look at the Cell phone industry. Google is just set to release Android to all members in the OHA, but they aren't building their own hardware. Symbian is licensed to a number of phone manufacturers. Windows Mobile is the same.

So Google has already made Android profitable? Pretty good for a product that hasn't even been released yet. Symbian was not a exactly a smashing success. They didn't show a profit at all until two years ago, and then Nokia bought them out and turned it into a not-for-profit corporation. Great business plan. Palm had similar problems. Windows Mobile (and its predecessors) have also been a struggle for Microsoft, which is why I say that this component model is difficult to duplicate, even by the companies who should understand it best.

Instead of comparing a game system to a mp3 player or phone, shouldn't we compare it to competitors in the game industry? It took Sony 13 months to post a profitable quarter with the PS3. Its saw quarters where it loss nearly a $1 billion even with the success of the PS2 and PSP. To this day, Sony has loss more than $3 billion on the PS3 LINK LINK2

The Xbox is a tremendous success for Microsoft, and apparently Microsoft saw it worthwhile to continue to pour money into it. Just now are they starting to be rewarded.

And what model does Microsoft follow for the Xbox? End-to-end. Even so, it's taken them years to make this product show a profit, and they still have a huge hole to climb out of, so it will be years at best before it's into the black. The point I am making here is that the markets would never tolerate this from Apple. Apple is expected to make money right out of the box with their new products -- which they have.
 
We can get a little crazy with analogies. The proprietary item you are buying is the car. The car maker may buy other proprietary parts to make that car, just as a consumer electronic company buys proprietary parts to make their products. But you are still buying the end product.
Your missing the point. The consumer themselves can by the tires. Of course tires are included with the car, but you can replace them with others (not bought from the car maker) and they are compatible (but not proprietary). But this isn't a technology related analogy, so, whatever.

So Google has already made Android profitable? Pretty good for a product that hasn't even been released yet. Symbian was not a exactly a smashing success. They didn't show a profit at all until two years ago, and then Nokia bought them out and turned it into a not-for-profit corporation. Great business plan. Palm had similar problems. Windows Mobile (and its predecessors) have also been a struggle for Microsoft, which is why I say that this component model is difficult to duplicate, even by the companies who should understand it best.
The point of my comment was to show that to component model works. You can debate each example, but the fact is that it exists. Google hasn't made android profitable, but it has garnered huge interest in it, with many of the leading phone manufacturers promising compatible devices. Symbian (well, its derivatives) is by far the leading Smartphone OS. Palm isn't a component model as they build their OS for their devices. Windows Mobile has nearly every major phone maker signed on (except Nokia) to make WinMo phones, with a growing market share.

Even then, what about the TV industry? As stated before, numerous companies purchase LCD panels from Sharp, Samsung, and the like.

While none of these component models hold a candle to the success of Windows, you can't exactly write it off as a "historical fluke", unless your willing to ignore all the examples I gave above.

And what model does Microsoft follow for the Xbox? End-to-end. Even so, it's taken them years to make this product show a profit, and they still have a huge hole to climb out of, so it will be years at best before it's into the black. The point I am making here is that the markets would never tolerate this from Apple. Apple is expected to make money right out of the box with their new products -- which they have.
I never stated the Xbox wasn't end-to-end, I was responding to the criticism of the system. The markets would never tolerate this from Apple because they don't step near anything that doesn't lead to high profit margins. That's not the type of company Apple is, and as history would show, that's not the type of company Apple should be. However, why should this rule apply to everyone? Microsoft is able, and willing, to pour money into a project which they feel will lead to success in the future. And right now, they are right on the ball. The E&D division has been posting profits for the last year and that doesn't look to be ending any time soon. Of course it will take some time to climb out the red, but not every business decision has to lead to an immediate result.

Look at Sony, the pronounced king of consoles last generation. They are in last place right now and around $3 Billion in the hole. Apparently this isn't the same market as a portable media player, or a cell phone. If Sony, who has been in the console race since 1994 can't make an immediate success, I'd say its says something good about Microsoft to start from scratch in the middle of a console "revolution" where everything is becoming increasingly expensive to produce, and become what they are now.
 
The point of my comment was to show that to component model works. You can debate each example, but the fact is that it exists. Google hasn't made android profitable, but it has garnered huge interest in it, with many of the leading phone manufacturers promising compatible devices. Symbian (well, its derivatives) is by far the leading Smartphone OS. Palm isn't a component model as they build their OS for their devices. Windows Mobile has nearly every major phone maker signed on (except Nokia) to make WinMo phones, with a growing market share.

The problem is the notable lack of profits deriving from this model. A business model is not a good one unless it makes money. Palm implemented a component model when they split their hardware and software divisions into separate companies. This move failed to make either one profitable. The same goes for Symbian and Microsoft Mobile. Again, talking market share is utterly pointless when market share does not result in a profit.

If you think the component model still works, then you'd better explain that to Microsoft. They're looking for another model, a more traditional model, the model Apple (and nearly everybody else) uses to makes their money. That was one of the more notable subjects of Ballmer's memo which started this thread. That's why we're having this discussion in the first place.
 
Actually the rumor is that Windows 7 will shunt all backwards compatibility crap into a VM of sorts, much like Apple did with "classic" and os9 junk. I really hope this is the case because the current winsxs system is horrible.

Really? Wow, I hope that rumor holds true.

I wouldn't hold your breath. They've already dropped the "MinWin kernel" idea which was going to be a major step forward, and Microsoft have stated that Windows 7 will be evolutionary not revolutionary. I'm sure they even stated somewhere that it definitely won't use this "classic mode" concept, although I can't find the source of that now.

It all reeks of them making exactly the same dumb decisions as they did with Vista. Still, they have plenty of time to put this new strategy into action...
 
The problem is the notable lack of profits deriving from this model. A business model is not a good one unless it makes money. Palm implemented a component model when they split their hardware and software divisions into separate companies. This move failed to make either one profitable. The same goes for Symbian and Microsoft Mobile. Again, talking market share is utterly pointless when market share does not result in a profit.
Windows Mobile is in the E&D Division, which has been turning a profit for the last year. Before this division, WinMo was in the Mobile and Embedded Devices Division, which was reported profitable back in 2006. WinMo has gone no where but up since then. Palm is a dead horse, so debating their profitability is pointless.:cool: A derivative of Symbian, S60, is on nearly every Nokia smartphone out there, and Nokia is the leading smartphone manufacturer. Sharp, Samsung, and Sony are all making $ millions on TVs, regardless of who bought whatever panel.

If you think the component model still works, then you'd better explain that to Microsoft. They're looking for another model, a more traditional model, the model Apple (and nearly everybody else) uses to makes their money. That was one of the more notable subjects of Ballmer's memo which started this thread. That's why we're having this discussion in the first place.
There's nothing in his memo that talk about abandoning the component model.
Steve Ballmer said:
Today, we’re changing the way we work with hardware vendors to ensure that we can provide complete experiences with absolutely no compromises. We’ll do the same with phones—providing choice as we work to create great end-to-end experiences.
Instead, he talks about ensuring they can provide complete experiences with no compromises. That, to me, means he wants to have better cooperation with the hardware vendors.
 
I wouldn't hold your breath. They've already dropped the "MinWin kernel" idea which was going to be a major step forward, and Microsoft have stated that Windows 7 will be evolutionary not revolutionary. I'm sure they even stated somewhere that it definitely won't use this "classic mode" concept, although I can't find the source of that now.

It all reeks of them making exactly the same dumb decisions as they did with Vista. Still, they have plenty of time to put this new strategy into action...

As long as there are no major compatibility issues, and doesn't hold the name "Vista", I think Windows 7 will be fine. :D
 
Are we reading the same memo? I've read it again, but fail to see where he's trying to find a new model. Could you, perhaps, point me in the direction?

Here is Ballmer attempting to understand, and promising to duplicate, Apple's success with end-to-end product development:

Apple: In the competition between PCs and Macs, we outsell Apple 30-to-1. But there is no doubt that Apple is thriving. Why? Because they are good at providing an experience that is narrow but complete, while our commitment to choice often comes with some compromises to the end-to-end experience. Today, we’re changing the way we work with hardware vendors to ensure that we can provide complete experiences with absolutely no compromises. We’ll do the same with phones—providing choice as we work to create great end-to-end experiences.

Between the lines, and not very far between them, is the implicit recognition of the limits of model they have been using for Windows PCs. He doesn't elaborate on what he means when he says that Microsoft will be "changing the way we work with hardware vendors," but one suspects that they'll be trying to dictate hardware standards to the OEMs in some way, shape or form, more than they have done historically. Then he says, "we'll do the same with phones." What should we make of that, except to presume that Microsoft doesn't think they can simply license an OS to hardware manufacturers, as they have always done, and still give customers that coveted "end-to-end" experience?

This is what causes some of us to think that Microsoft is casting around for a different approach. Flailing around, more like. They seem to want to cling to the licensing (component) model that worked so well for them in the past, but they're also seeing that Apple's approach of "designing the whole widget" gives consumers a better experience. Microsoft would like to have the best of both worlds. I don't see how they can pull it off.
 
Between the lines, and not very far between them, is the implicit recognition of the limits of model they have been using for Windows PCs. He doesn't elaborate on what he means when he says that Microsoft will be "changing the way we work with hardware vendors," but one suspects that they'll be trying to dictate hardware standards to the OEMs in some way, shape or form, more than they have done historically. Then he says, "we'll do the same with phones." What should we make of that, except to presume that Microsoft doesn't think they can simply license an OS to hardware manufacturers, as they have always done, and still give customers that coveted "end-to-end" experience?
Complete experiences, no compromises, and choices. As you said, one suspects that the hardware standards for products that run their software will be dictated more closely. That means no more "Vista Capable" fiasco, where the computers are not able to run their software on a level that is satisfactory. That means no more underpowered WinMo phones that struggle to perform the tasks at hand. That means they want a better standard of devices to run their software. That doesn't mean their giving up a component model for an end-to-end model.. It does mean, however, that they want to work more closely with the hardware manufacturers to provide a complete experience with no compromises and choices. But an "end-to-end" experience doesn't provide choices. Therefore, he seeks to duplicate how closely related the hardware and software are, without actually being "end-to-end" which is really the best solution, in my eyes.

This is what causes some of us to think that Microsoft is casting around for a different approach. Flailing around, more like. They seem to want to cling to the licensing (component) model that worked so well for them in the past, but they're also seeing that Apple's approach of "designing the whole widget" gives consumers a better experience. Microsoft would like to have the best of both worlds. I don't see how they can pull it off.
Not so much of a different approach as it is a better relationship with the hardware that runs their software. Think of it as Microsoft trying to improve the consistency between their products.
 
This is what causes some of us to think that Microsoft is casting around for a different approach. Flailing around, more like. They seem to want to cling to the licensing (component) model that worked so well for them in the past, but they're also seeing that Apple's approach of "designing the whole widget" gives consumers a better experience. Microsoft would like to have the best of both worlds. I don't see how they can pull it off.

I don't think they're flailing at all. I can guarantee you Ballmer will have agreements with HP, Dell and the other big boys already as to what is an acceptable build for a Windows machine. They next key thing is to get them to remove the pre-installed crapware - this seems to be working with Sony.
 
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